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Posted: 4/23/2002 11:01:16 PM EDT
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?f=/stories/20020423/3932.html The United States wants to give two teams of Canadian snipers the Bronze Star, a decoration for bravery, for their work in rooting out Taliban and al-Qaeda holdouts in eastern Afghanistan, but Canadian defence officials put the medals on hold, the National Post has learned. ... By daylight, after coming under enemy machine-gun fire, he managed to ease his rifle barrel between two rocks and quickly located an enemy sniper hiding behind a small piece of corrugated steel between two trees. He guessed the distance at 1,700 metres and fired one shot through the metal, killing the man instantly. ... During the next four days of fighting, the Newfoundland corporal set what is believed to be a record for a long-distance shot under combat conditions, hitting an enemy gunman at a distance of 2,430 metres.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 11:04:12 PM EDT
I must ask: How much is truely luck? Over that great a distance the different winds and air riseing effects are far too great to judge. You think it should go there but there is way too many variables to judge. No diminishing his skill any, but at that range its hard.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 11:16:18 PM EDT
The Canadians had better stop making those Newfie jokes.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 11:21:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 11:30:41 PM EDT by DarkHelmet]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 11:23:22 PM EDT
Snorkel_Bob, shots made at that distance involve virtually NO luck - almost PURE SKILL and great equipment. As you stated yourself, there are so many variables involved - you have to be very good at what you're doing to make a shot like that. Your average person - even above that, your average shooter - could go through many rounds, boxes, cases, and not hit the target. No luck, just a LOT of training, range time, and equipment familiarity. Tate
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 11:28:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DarkHelmet: Yeah... I know I'll sound like a cheauvanist pig... but how do you keep a high "esprit de corp" and pride of your unit when it's named this: "3rd Battalion, [b]Princess Patricia's[/b] Canadian Light Infantry" Do they wear pink berets?
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Its named after the member of the UK royal family that paid for its initial set up out of their own pocket. No one who has seen the PPCLI's record can question their toughness or ferocity. DarkHelmet, that was disappointing.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 11:30:55 PM EDT
So many variables produce so many different possiblities. So many that a human can not effectivly address the situation. Still think that distance is mainly luck
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 11:35:41 PM EDT
I say they deserve it. Shooting and hitting your mark at that range is awesome! USPC40 ------------------------------------------------- [b][blue]NRA Life Member[/blue][/b] - [url]www.nra.org[/url] [b][blue]GOA Life Member[/blue][/b] - [url]www.gunowners.org[/url] [b][blue]SAF Supporter[/blue][/b] - [url]www.saf.org[/url] [b][blue]SAS Supporter[/blue][/b] - [url]www.sas-aim.org[/url] [img]www.ar15.com/members/albums/USPC40/alabamaflag.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 11:42:28 PM EDT
In my best Gomer Pyle... "Well Goooolly!" That is a good shot. The only luck involved is seeing the target at that distance.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 11:47:37 PM EDT
[url]http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?f=/stories/20020423/3932.html[/url] Just because I can. [:D] This article was posted earlier I believe. The Canadians were using McMillan Tac-50's. An awesome piece of .50 cal weaponry guaranteed to shoot .5 MOA. If the shooter/round/rifle combo could hold the .5 MOA that far, then it's possible. Even it was a lucky shot... [beer] those Canadians are okay in my book.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 3:01:35 AM EDT
Just wait til those dirtbag POS politicians pick up on this one. Renewed rallying cry- [i]Ban 1.5 mile shooting .50-cals for the children.[/i]
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 3:15:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Snorkel_Bob: So many variables produce so many different possiblities. So many that a human can not effectivly address the situation. Still think that distance is mainly luck
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While I agree that a follow up shot would not likely strike the same as the initial "lucky shot" to paraphrase a little, I think that this was PRIMARILY skill, and some luck for good measure. You have to be very close to perfect to make that shot in perfect conditions, let alone in the real world. This team deserves the medals undoubtedly, as well as the recognition of the world. A truely amazing feat.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 3:54:17 AM EDT
So many variables produce so many different possiblities. So many that a human can not effectivly address the situation. Still think that distance is mainly luck
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Tell you what, then; I hold an HM classification in NRA highpower...come on out and shoot against me for, say, $1,000 a match? Since it's "mostly luck" you'll have just as good a chance as I, right? Ummm....you DO own a rifle, don't you? Oh, well .... when you do buy your first one, the offer still holds. Sheesh.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 4:08:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Snorkel_Bob: I must ask: How much is truely luck? Over that great a distance the different winds and air riseing effects are far too great to judge. You think it should go there but there is way too many variables to judge. No diminishing his skill any, but at that range its hard.
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"luck favors the prepared"
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 4:15:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SeaDweller: Just wait til those dirtbag POS politicians pick up on this one. Renewed rallying cry- [i]Ban 1.5 mile shooting .50-cals for the children.[/i]
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LOL You are so right! As you read Canadian officials have put the medals on hold!! It seems they do not want to create FAME for KILLERS!!! Also one of the snipers is up on charges for "being rude" to a chaplain!! Owwweee shucks.....these guys are not paid to be alter boys!! They are trained to KILL!! Anyway I am very proud of them no matter what happens in the end.. Its sad that it took the USA to recognize their valor.....Canada has offerd NOTHING!! Oh Snorkel bob.....Just how many rounds do you think it would take you to hit that target at even 1000 yards????? LUCK MY ASS!!
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 4:25:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By lurker:
Originally Posted By Snorkel_Bob: I must ask: How much is truely luck? Over that great a distance the different winds and air riseing effects are far too great to judge. You think it should go there but there is way too many variables to judge. No diminishing his skill any, but at that range its hard.
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"luck favors the prepared"
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Yep
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 4:28:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2002 4:29:59 AM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By Stormbringer: Also one of the snipers is up on charges for "being rude" to a chaplain!!
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Wonder if we could get this guy moved up to the Silver Star ? (This is exactly the type of low-life scum that I would go into battle with !!)
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 4:35:36 AM EDT
The "Bronze Star" is for meritorious achievment The "Bronze Star" with V device for valor The "Silver Star" is for Valor only...in combat generally given out for saving lives by either attacking the enemy...under fire ..rescues under fire...carrying on while severly wounded etc... But having been in battle I am sure you already knew this...:) [/quote] Wonder if we could get this guy moved up to the Silver Star ? (This is exactly the type of low-life scum that I would go into battle with !!)[/quote]
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 4:44:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2002 4:47:02 AM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: The "Silver Star" is for Valor only...in combat generally given out for saving lives by either attacking the enemy...under fire ..
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Looks like he makes it under this clause. My post was actually a little tongue-in-cheek-humor but probably you already knew this. Forgetting whether or not I've ever been in any battle (that information is none of your business) or not where did I indicate in my post that I had ? In fact where on any of the over 4000 posts that I've made where have I 'EVER' indicated what I did in the military ?
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 5:04:05 AM EDT
Get some, Newfies! [:D] That is outstanding work. I wonder if the high altitude helped any. High altitude means thin air and low humidity, which should mean less drag on the bullet and better long range visibility. What sort of optics do the Canadians mount on their .50 rifles?
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 5:11:28 AM EDT
I have a question for any .50 cal shooters out there: If your holding for an estimated range of 1700 meters, is the flight path so flat that it will still be on target at 2400 meters. Just a thought. WL
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 5:14:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: Get some, Newfies! [:D] That is outstanding work. I wonder if the high altitude helped any. High altitude means thin air and low humidity, which should mean less drag on the bullet and better long range visibility. What sort of optics do the Canadians mount on their .50 rifles?
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The high altitude would have helped. I too am wondering about the optics - this shot had to be at the extreme edge of any optics that I'm certain are in the field although there is a new scope from U.S. Optics that should handle out to about 3,000 meters. (I don't know that the U.S. Optics scope is in the field as yet.)
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 5:16:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TxLewis: I have a question for any .50 cal shooters out there: If your holding for an estimated range of 1700 meters, is the flight path so flat that it will still be on target at 2400 meters. Just a thought. WL
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Be good to get "AROCK" to respond here as he's a world class .50 cal guy.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 5:31:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Celt:
So many variables produce so many different possiblities. So many that a human can not effectivly address the situation. Still think that distance is mainly luck
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Tell you what, then; I hold an HM classification in NRA highpower...come on out and shoot against me for, say, $1,000 a match? Since it's "mostly luck" you'll have just as good a chance as I, right? Ummm....you DO own a rifle, don't you? Oh, well .... when you do buy your first one, the offer still holds. Sheesh.
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Let's see, 1700 m >>> 1860 yd @ .5 >>> 9" 2430 m >>> 2660 yd @ .5 >>> 13" Some luck, made possible only by extreme skill.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 5:42:24 AM EDT
Absolutely agreed with prk.... some luck, backed up by extreme skill. If you can hold .5MOA across the distance, a 13" circle is still on a mans chest.... They also dont say how many shots he took... I can imagine at that range, the vertical drop must be extreme.... the slightest miscalculation of distance is gonna be way off target.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 5:50:36 AM EDT
If memory serves, didn't Whitefeather mount a scope on a BMG and sight it for 3,500 yards? Also, I seem to recall his longest kill with it was 2,500. Someone help me out. You know the second thing to go is the memory; I forget what's first. Eddie
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 5:53:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2002 6:12:03 AM EDT by Stormbringer]
Originally Posted By TxLewis: I have a question for any .50 cal shooters out there: If your holding for an estimated range of 1700 meters, is the flight path so flat that it will still be on target at 2400 meters. Just a thought. WL
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You missunderstood. The 1700 m shot was on one of the first days when he was just warming up!! The BIG shot came over the next few days... FALARAK....he took out the first guy at 1700 with a single shot. They do not say how many it was for the 2400 m shot.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 5:56:22 AM EDT
A 2,400 meter shot can be made and has been made under non-combat conditions. You have to know your weapon in precise detail as well as how the weapon shoots that type of ammo in those relative conditions. The well trained and meticulous sniper factors out every variable he can then fires the shot. Frankly, at that range, it would take great skill to just get the round in the vicinity. At 2400 meters, .5 MOA is about 14 inches. So theoretically, if you could get the range right and predict all the other variables, you could put the round on a human sized target. Luck comes in when an unexpected gust doesn't come up and their are no unanticipated updrafts or thermals to loft the round. So yes, luck does play a part, but skill gets you to the point where luck can turn your way. At that range the .50 round's trajectory looks like a friggin' banana. With a 1000 yard zero, an M-2 709 gr bt round at 2850 fps MV drops 404 inches below the zero. Another thousand yards beyond that... Certainly sniper grade ammo will do a bit better.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 6:08:38 AM EDT
I've noticed that everyone seems to assume the MOA is holding constant (i.e. .5" @ 100, 1.0" @ 200, etc.). This may or may not be the case. Often, a round that shoots MOA at 100 will hold sub-MOA at 200 and beyond. It's possible the firearm/ammo in question is capable of, say a 10 inch or less group at that range. Of, course it could also go the other way, but in his business, I'm betting on the former. Eddie
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 6:30:04 AM EDT
how long does it take for the bullet to get there?
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 6:39:11 AM EDT
Canucks have been proving themselves more and more lately. They beat our snipers at that competition at Ft. Benning last year (can't remember when it was, but army times did an article on it). I think they were from Princess Patricia's Light Infantry (wouldn't be surprised if it was the same team that dropped those guys). And we gave those 2nd ID guys so much crap for driving IFVs around Ft. Lewis with Candian plates on the front . . .. They sure do have some weak cigarettes though (unless that's changed recently too . . . I gave up smoking anyway).
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 7:05:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By redray: how long does it take for the bullet to get there?
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Hmmm Well assuming that velocity was a constant ( which it is not) Velocity = 2850 ft/sec Which is 868.86 m/sec If the distance was 2450 m then we have a flight time of 2.8 seconds.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 7:10:55 AM EDT
pulls trigger... one one-thousand, two one-thousand, three one-t SPLAT!!! bye bye al queda CK
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 7:32:12 AM EDT
We can even SWAG closer than that... Let's say the velocity at impact is 1,000 fps (Damn, that's gotta hurt), and the velocity loss is constant (which it isn't, quite) we have a median velocity of around 1925 fps. If 2450m is about 8000 ft, we get a flight time of a little over four seconds. Time enough to fire, light a smoke, and look back in the scope to see the results. Wah.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 11:11:32 AM EDT
Yeah Carlos did hit a man at 2,500 yards in Nam. He shot his 2,500 yard zero at the same spot the VC he shot was standing. I just read Marine Sniper.... :)
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 12:07:07 PM EDT
Yeah... I know I'll sound like a cheauvanist pig... but how do you keep a high "esprit de corp" and pride of your unit when it's named this: "3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry" Do they wear pink berets?
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I don't suppose you remember the Monty Python episode with the British soldiers wearing pink tutus? Too cold for tutus in Canada, so they wear "Princess Patricia's Panties" underneath their cammys [:D]
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 12:48:32 PM EDT
Well done. I hope they get their medals. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 1:23:14 PM EDT
Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (For a detailed directory of the PPCLI history, click the image above) History The Regiment was born in Ottawa in August, 1914 as a result of the offer of Captain Andrew Hamilton Gault on the 3rd of August, to provide $100,000 to finance and equip a Battalion for overseas service. On the 6th of August, 1914 Captain Gault's offer was provisionally accepted by the Canadian Government. Authority was formally granted on the10th August, 1914 (by way of a Report to the Privy Council of Canada (PC 2112)) to raise and equip an infantry battalion, with the remainder of the cost being defrayed by the Department of Militia and Defence. On the10th of August, 1914 the Charter of the Regiment was signed and on the next day mobilization began. Eight days later, it was completed, as old soldiers flocked from every part of Canada. Out of 1,098 all ranks accepted into the new Regiment, 1,049 had seen previous service in South Africa or in the regular forces of the British Empire. In addition to personnel from the Royal Navy and Marines, almost every unit in the British Army had its representation. L. Col Francis D.Farquhar, DSO, an officer of the Coldstream Guards who was Military Secretary to His Royal Highness, the Duke of Connaught and Stathearn, The Governor-General of Canada, was selected to command the new battalion. L. Col Farquhar suggested the the Regiment bear the name of the Duke's youngest daughter, Her Royal Highness Princess Patricia of Connaught. The request was made to the princess, who graciously consented to the regiment bearing her name. The Light infantry came about because Captain Gault, a veteran of the South African War, liked the "Irregular feel" it gave the regiment. The full title of Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Mobile Infantry was too long for everyday use, and the new unit became known as "PPCLI", with "PP's" or "Pip Pip's", the most common variants. The Regiment was best known to the public as "Princess Pats" or merely the "Pats", but this partial abbreviation is discouraged within the regiment, which now prefers to be known as the "Patricia's". The Edmonton City Police Pipe Band had enlisted in Ottawa under a gallant old Highlander, Pipe Major C. Colville. Reporting in full Highland Kit with the Hunting Stewart tartan, they announced to the Colonel that they had come "to pipe you to France and back again" Colonel Farquhar was able to take them on establishment and they lightened many a march for the Regiment and proved stouthearted stretcher bearers in action as well.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 1:45:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2002 1:56:56 PM EDT by Striker]
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 2:18:27 PM EDT
2430 meters is longer than 2500 yard.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 2:54:23 PM EDT
Imagine being the Al-Queda next to him, firing at the stupid Americans a mile away just to fuck with them thinking they can't hit you back, laughin' at them and joking around, and all of a sudden you look over at your buddy in between the trees, behind the sheet metal, and his body comes apart at the waist and his head hits the ground before his butt does. [b]OHMYFUCKINGALLAH!!!!![/b]
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 3:01:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 3:04:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Uhlek: Imagine being the Al-Queda next to him, firing at the stupid Americans a mile away just to fuck with them thinking they can't hit you back, laughin' at them and joking around, and all of a sudden you look over at your buddy in between the trees, behind the sheet metal, and his body comes apart at the waist and his head hits the ground before his butt does. [b]OHMYFUCKINGALLAH!!!!![/b]
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He should be jealous cuz his friend is now in paradise with 70 virgin pigs.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 3:06:06 PM EDT
... I think we might be missing some info here. .One half MOA is roughly 0.008333 degrees. At 7972.441 feet (2430 meters) it provides a 13.914" spread. Under perfect conditions I still can't imagine a sharpshooter taking the shot. ... A sniper cannot consistently nail a .5MOA, his rifle can but he cannot.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 3:59:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2002 4:00:50 PM EDT by Stormbringer]
Originally Posted By Paul: I'll raise the BULL SHIT flag on this one! The guy makes a hit at 7972 feet after guessing?
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The only way you can raise the BULLSHIT FLAG is due to the FACT that YOU ARE FULL OF IT!!! He GUESSED at the FIRST DISTANCE!!! GET IT For a MOD you should learn how to READ!!! The Guess was at 1700 meters NOT the 2450!! Take another look!!
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 4:07:36 PM EDT
Anyone that drops a T by any means and at any range gets a tip of the hat from me. Thanks for going in harms way, some of us REALLY appreciate it. [beer] - CD
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