Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 4/23/2002 12:31:26 AM EDT
[size=4]Israeli Missiles Kill Hebron Militant and Bodyguard[/size=4] Mon Apr 22, 6:40 PM ET HEBRON, West Bank (Reuters) - An Israeli helicopter gunship fired missiles at a car in the divided West Bank city of Hebron late on Monday, killing a Palestinian militant leader and his bodyguard, witnesses and security sources said. It was the first attack of its kind since the Israeli army pulled out of most major West Bank cities and towns three weeks after launching what it described as a campaign to smash "terror infrastructure" behind a wave of suicide bombings. The Israeli army confirmed that a helicopter fired rockets in Hebron, but would not say what it had targeted. Witnesses said one of the dead men was Marwan Zuloum, whom Palestinian security sources described as the Hebron leader of the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades as well as a senior member of a special Palestinian police unit. The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades is a group affiliated with Palestinian President Yasser Arafat's Fatah faction and has launched suicide attacks against Israelis. The other dead man was identified as Samih Abu-Rajab, Zuloum's bodyguard and a member of Arafat's Force 17 presidential guard. Israeli security sources said Zuloum was behind a number of attacks against Israelis. The missile strike just before midnight local time demolished the car the two men were riding in, close to the center of the Palestinian-ruled part of Hebron. Hundreds of angry onlookers spilled into the streets shouting for revenge. Israel has killed scores of militants it has accused of mounting suicide attacks. Palestinian officials call it state-sponsored assassination and the practice has drawn international condemnation, but Israel says it is acting in self-defense. [img]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020423/capt.1019545215.mideast_israel_palestinians_jrl103.jpg[/img] Caption: Palestinian policemen inspect the wreckage of a car hit by Israeli helicopter missiles in the southern West Bank town of Hebron, Tuesday April 23, 2002. Israeli helicopters fired missiles at a car in Hebron late Monday killing Marwan Zalloum, commander of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade militia in Hebron and Samir Abu Ragap, Zalloum's bodyguard. (AP Photo/Nasser Shiyoukhi) Click on link for grisly photo: [url]http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20020423/capt.1019545248.mideast_israel_palestinians_jrl104.jpg[/url] Caption: Palestinians gather around the body of Marwan Zalloum, commander of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade militia in Hebron, at al-Ahly hospital in the southern West Bank town of Hebron, Tuesday April 23, 2002. Israeli helicopters fired missiles at a car in Hebron late Monday killing Zalloum and Samir Abu Ragap, Zalloum's bodyguard. (AP Photo/Nasser Shiyoukhi) See article at:[url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&574&e=1&u=/nm/20020422/wl_nm/mideast_dc_1698[/url] Eric The(CanIsraelAffordToLeave?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 1:25:09 AM EDT
C-ya later alligator.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 1:35:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 1:42:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By osprey21: From looking at ETH's photo link, it appears the ole' boy had his hands up and wanted to surrender. [;D] Bwwwwaahahahahah.....
View Quote
Too late for that decision, once they fire'em, they don't just stop and go home. Talk about a day late and a dollar short.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 2:02:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 2:05:35 AM EDT by PezMaster]
How exactly would that classify as Murder? That bastard deserved it. That was simply another casuality in the fight against terrorism. I'd like to know how their intel seems to be so much better than ours? They are always killing some senior leader of one group or another. anyways, tired and must sleep now. Scott
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 3:17:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 3:19:05 AM EDT by Norm_G]
If ever there was a legitimate target, these boys were it. Nice precise shooting, too. No apparent damage to anything surrounding the car. Let's see, they send suicide bombers and the Israelis kill them so the Israelis are "assasins." No lable on the bombers. Yeah, that makes sense. The Palestinian version of this action would have been to send a suicide bomber to the target's daughter's birthday party. Anyone who finds a moral equivalence between the two sides has their head up their ass. garandman, subslr5, jobux, tell us again how there's no difference between the sides.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 3:47:16 AM EDT
I used the term 'murdered' just to forestall the claim that this may [u]not[/u] have been a righteous hit! When you look at the facts, if you are honest, had this individual had been a member of Al Qaeda network, and the scene had been near the Pakistani border in Afghanistan, who wouldn't be doing handsprings? But because this POS was a member of Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, and the scene was in the West Bank, it is somehow an assassination! At least in some people's small minds! Eric The(KnowWhatIMean?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 3:49:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 4:12:15 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Norm_G: garandman, subslr5, jobux, tell us again how there's no difference between the sides.
View Quote
Well, let's see.... One side has Apache attack helicopters with guided missiles, heavy armored vehicles, and state of that art tanks.... ...and the other side has fools with bombs strapped to their bodies. BOTH SIDES use what works for them, limited by their available ordnance. No difference. What's your point? [b]Nice shooting, Israelis.[/b] What you can't seem to fit into your apparently pea- sized brain is that questioning Israel is [b]NOT [/b]the same thing as supporting the Palestinian murderers. You'd like to paint us that way, but yer wrong. WRONG. Edited to add: I suppose I SHOULD put a smiley face after "pea-sized brain" [}:D] There.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 4:02:46 AM EDT
There you have it folks! No difference at all between taking out a POS and his sidekick, and making mincemeat out of teenagers at a disco, or elderly folks sitting down at their Passover meal. Nope, not a speck of difference between the two. None. Just the choice of weaponry, and their ability to use that weaponry. See? There is really no difference between the folks who used hi-jacked commercial airliners to do their dirty work and the United States using it overwhelming military force, to take out each other's infrastructure. Bin Laden was simply limited in his choice of weapons, and his choice of targets, perhaps.
BOTH SIDES use what works for them, limited by their available ordnance. No difference.
View Quote
'No difference'! The height of liberal BS moral equivalency. That's all.
What you can't seem to fit into your apparently pea-sized brain is that questioning Israel is NOT the same thing as supporting the Palestinian murderers.
View Quote
No, it just works out that way in real life. No different than some hearing some Frenchmen say, 'Alors, but if the US had just been more even-handed in its handling of the Middle East, Sept 11 may never have happened.' That is just BS. Eric The(Reasonable)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 4:11:57 AM EDT
[img]http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/04/22/images/site_images/Opinion-Cartoon___Large.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 4:20:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Norm_G: Anyone who finds a moral equivalence between the two sides has their head up their ass. garandman, subslr5, jobux, tell us again how there's no difference between the sides.
View Quote
One side we pay about $5 Billion and the other we pay about 75 million. (Per year) I am unable to tell you there is no difference.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 4:24:14 AM EDT
I am amazed by the Israelis intelligence capability. They must have operatives all over the West Bank.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 4:24:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 4:25:17 AM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By garandman: What you can't seem to fit into your apparently pea- sized brain [:D] Edited to add: I suppose I SHOULD put a smiley face after "pea-sized brain" [:D] There.
View Quote
[:D]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 4:32:19 AM EDT
As the view from inside Ariel Sharone's sphincter may have inhibited Eric the Huns ability to see clearly, let's give him a little historical perspective. 1. Historical Israeli massacres. Yup. The time-honored tradition of killing EVERYONE, women, babies, children, old men was STARTED in this region by the [b[Israelis [/b] Read the Old Testament. The Israelis did it first. And if anything, Arabs have long memories. And PLEASE OH PLEASE bring up the non-point that "God told the Israelis to do it." 2. Historical American terrorism. Yup. Remember 1776, Eric? The War for Independence in your home nation?? The British considered the Americans whatever the 1700's word for "terrorists" was. American minutemen were targeting British commanders, which was historically verbotten. In addition, Americans refused to stand and fight in traditional volley line fire the way the Brits were. Instead, the Americans hid behind rocks, hid in homes, sniped and harassed the Brits, guerrilla style warfare, until the Brits figgered out it was time to leave the occupied territories. BOTH of these actions were considered morally wrong military tactics. But we used 'em, and I'm glad we did. All that said, I've already condemned the homocide bombing of teenagers by the Palestinians. I don't know how much more clearly I can say it. But if ever America is invaded and occupied by a foreign force, I'll guarantee you I'm gonna make it as unpleasant for them to be here as possible. Its easy to stand back and condemn the Palestinians - UNTIL you have been where they are now. America WAS there in 1776, and did some VERY "immoral" things. And I'm glad we did, and I'd do it again. Eric, please TRY to address the salient points, and NOT just put out inflammatory rhetoric like "the height of liberal BS moral equivalency." Let me recap for you - 1. Israelis STARTED the practice of killing women and children in the region. 2. The Americans violated "standard military doctrine" in the War of 1776.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 4:43:49 AM EDT
Besides Eric - Yer tilting windmills. I've already said (provided, of course, everything is as reported on this ditbags ties to Islaamic terrorist organizations) .... [b]Good shooting, Israelis.[/b] I'll cheer the israelis actions, and I hold my nose over the palestinians. Its war, eric. War is a dirty business. Just as I hold my nose over Dresden, Nagasaki and Hiroshima, I hold my nose over the Palestinians. Its ugly, but necessary. Its like Rush said, peace will ONLY come when one side achieves total victory. Total victory REQUIRES all out war. Like I've said, I'm hoping the Israelis win (but I'm willing to question their actions in teh meantime, mostly becasue people like you REFUSE to) Like I've ALSO said, I wish the US state department would unfetter Israel to conduct all out war. [b]AS USUAL, YOU'LL PICK OUT PARTS OF THIS POST TO FLAME, AND IGNORE ANY CONCESSIONS I MAKE TO ISRAEL, MAKING ME THINK YOU WISH **** ONLY ***** TO ARGUE AND FLAME ME, AND HAVE **** NO ***** DESIRE TO SEE ANY VIEWPOINT OTHER THAN YOUR PREDETERMINED, UNCHANGEABLE MINDSET. [/b]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 4:45:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: As the view from inside Ariel Sharone's sphincter may have inhibited Eric the Huns ability to see clearly.....
View Quote
If the HUN's position is as you describe, I believe not only would Eric's eyesight be impaired but also his hearing and olfactory sesnses would be directly leaving only the tactile senses working and even those would be operating below norm to due to the smooth and consistent wall linings. In my opinion Eric T. HUN would be operating in a virtually sensory deprived environment. Humans cannot long function rationally in such an environment.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 4:50:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 4:58:02 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
I hate when people compare the Palestinians to the those who fought in the American Revolution. (not really directed at you garandman, I'm thinking about all of the Palestinian spokespeople who do this) The American Revolution was a fight for freedom, one that gave birth to the Rule of Law (in the most fully realized form the world had ever seen). The whole world has benefited from the American Revolution. Most of the world's Nations' constitutions have been modelled after ours. The only thing the Palestinians have in common with the American Colonists, is that they are ruled by an unjust dictator. An apt comparison would be, if King George had convinced the Colonists that it was the French Canadians who were oppressing them, not the Monarchy. I just don't think that the Founding Fathers were as malleble as the Palestinians apparently are.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 4:53:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: I just don't think that the Founding Fathers were as malleble as the Palestinians apparently are.
View Quote
Nor do I.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:00:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: I hate when people compare the Palestinians to the those who fought in the American Revolution. (not really directed at you garandman, I'm thinking about all of the Palistinians spokespeople who do this) .
View Quote
Actually, I agree. I concede its a tenuous comparison I'm making. But the fact remains, we "broke the rules" and did what we HAD to do. At the time, what we did was considered "immoral" but we did it because we were facing a superior force, with better armaments, tactics, training, better everything. And I'll also concede that we did what we did, to my knowledge, ONLY against military targets. Comparatively, the British DID use the natives to kill the colonials women and children. The major difference being we didn't whine like a bunch of schoolgirls about those "meanie" Indians, we accepted it as a fact of war, and made the Brit regulars pay for it on the field of battle. THAT is what the Israelis should be doing. QUIT WHINING. And obviously, I wish the Palestinians would quit the homicide bombings. Its SEVERLY damages their credibility. If not completely.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:04:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 5:05:40 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
....that's why all of this moral relativism that we've seen so much of, lately, is so repulsive. Because the Founding Fathers used force and violence, and the Palestinians ALSO use force and violence, does not mean that the two should be mentioned in the same breath. They deconstruct the glory of the American Revolution into "violence" and "grievance", and come to the conclusion that that's what it was about. The idea that Arafat, somehow thinks he's on the same moral and intellectual level as the Founding Fathers, just because he kills people, should make one shudder.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:09:40 AM EDT
Also, Cincinnatus, keep in mind - You are looking at teh War for Independence in HINDSIGHT. At the time, there was NO way to determine WHAT would result from the American colonies achieving victory. At the time, MANY millions looked at the Colonies uprising as the HEIGHT of insurgency, insurrection, and lawlessness. And for clarities sake ( as I can ALREADY hear theHun et al Israeli Marketing Inc. warming us their s vitriolic flamethrowers) I FULLY support everything we did in our War for Independence, and would do it again today if the opportunity arose, only more often, and more intentionally. And accordingly, I'll cut the palestinainas A LITTLE slack, but not to the point of homicide bombings. Again, Eric, did you catch that??? NO homicide bombings. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:18:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By Norm_G: garandman, subslr5, jobux, tell us again how there's no difference between the sides.
View Quote
Well, let's see.... One side has Apache attack helicopters with guided missiles, heavy armored vehicles, and state of that art tanks.... ...and the other side has fools with bombs strapped to their bodies. BOTH SIDES use what works for them, limited by their available ordnance. [red]No difference[/red]. ...
View Quote
Is this "picking minor points" or is this the essence of your post? The difference is not in the tools used, it's what one uses them for. Killing known combatants or blowing up childrens' birthday barties. [red]BIG DIFFERENCE[/red]. Apparently invisible to you.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:18:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: The idea that Arafat, somehow thinks he's on the same moral and intellectual level as the Founding Fathers, just because he kills people, should make one shudder.
View Quote
Again, I agree. Arafat thinking he is some kind of modern day George Washinton is laughable. My comparison extends ONLY to the "in the trenches" NECESSITY to "break the rules" as I've outlined twice above. NOT to anything else. BUT YOU'VE NOT ADDRESSED MY OTHER POINT - 1. The Israelis STARTED teh practice of killing women and children in teh region. Thoughts????
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:21:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 5:23:09 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
I slightly disagree. When the Founding Fathers composed and signed the Declaration of Independence, they had remarkable clarity and foresight. They had a map. The phrase "Give me Liberty or give me Death", is remarkable NOT beacause of his willingness to die for his cause. It's remarkable because of who he was, and his grasp of the concept of "Liberty", itself. The Palestinians are fond of this quote, because they feel it justifies "Death(s)", without fully understanding the "Liberty" part.. The Founding Fathers were gentlemen and scholars. The Palestinians are whiners, and lightweights. Savages, actually.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:26:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: BUT YOU'VE NOT ADDRESSED MY OTHER POINT - 1. The Israelis STARTED teh practice of killing women and children in teh region. Thoughts????
View Quote
Slaughter has occurred there FOREVER. I look at the way things are NOW. The Israelis' goal is NOT the WHOLESALE SLAUGHTER of the entire Palestinian Population. The same can't be said of their savage neighbors.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:29:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Norm_G:
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By Norm_G: garandman, subslr5, jobux, tell us again how there's no difference between the sides.
View Quote
Well, let's see.... One side has Apache attack helicopters with guided missiles, heavy armored vehicles, and state of that art tanks.... ...and the other side has fools with bombs strapped to their bodies. BOTH SIDES use what works for them, limited by their available ordnance. [red]No difference[/red]. ...
View Quote
Is this "picking minor points" or is this the essence of your post?
View Quote
Ahh, an olive branch. I'll take it, thank you. I concede that my above is a smaller point. But its a point I REFUSE to ignore. I think of myself, and my wife, sitting at home, KNOWING across the street, there is a FOREIGN INVADER, armed to the teeth by a foreign gov't, watching what I do, limiting my freedom. And me, with NOTHING to defend my wife or family. I think of the RAGE, the blind HATRED I would feel towrd that foreign invader. And YES, hatred DOES "blind" people to what is clearly obvious to the detached, clinical observer (i.e. you and I)- namely that homicide bombings are morally repugnant. And so I hold my nose with the Palestininas, knowing that I myself might not be lilly white given the same set of circumstances. Can you not at least A LITTLE see what it would be liek to be a Palestinian person (NOT Arafat) but Joe Camelback (the Arab version of Joe Sixpack)????? Not even a little????
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:30:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: ... The phrase "Give me Liberty or give me Death", is remarkable NOT beacause of his willingness to die for his cause. It's remarkable because of who he was, and his grasp of the concept of "Liberty", itself. The Palestinians are fond of this quote, because they feel it justifies "Death(s)", without fully understanding the "Liberty" part.. ...
View Quote
That, and the Pala-swines could care less about libery. All they're after are dead Jews.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:36:26 AM EDT
That's a fact. If they were actually concerned with liberty, they would overthrow Arafat, and begin forming a truly democratic society. They are just too busy hating Jews, however, to recognize their true oppressors. It's all so common a theme... An oppressive regime convinces its population that there is an ENEMY. The oppressor then molds, fans, and focuses the population's hate outward. To keep them occupied.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:39:53 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
As the view from inside Ariel Sharone's sphincter may have inhibited Eric the Huns ability to see clearly, let's give him a little historical perspective.
View Quote
Is [u]your[/u] view any better from Yasser 'Now Garandman Knows What I Needed A Wet Washcloth For' Arafat's butt? [:D]
1. Historical Israeli massacres.
View Quote
B-b-b-but, [b]garandman[/b], [u]you[/u] have so thoroughly preached [i][b]ad nauseum[/b][/i] that these present-day Israelis have [b]no connection whatsoever[/b], in any shape, manner, or form, to those ancient Israelites from the Old Testament times. Remember? So were you mistaken [u]then[/u], or are you [u]mistaken[/u] now? So which is it?
2. Historical American terrorism.
View Quote
Son, you need to get yourself a dictionary and go sit in the corner for a few years, reading it. To equate the premeditated murder of innocents with a revised version of military tactics is just simple BS. And you keep talking about 'salient points'? [b]garandman[/b], you need to look up the definition of 'salient' in that dictionary as well. Eric The(AlwaysLearning)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:40:08 AM EDT
G-man even G_d Himself commanded the Hebrews to kill everything living thing..men women children and all their animals... The IDF has been going out of their way to avoid killing non militant civilians The Palestinians are backed by the wealtiest nations in the world and by the fastest growing religion (one that promotes the killing of Christians). the Palestinans are in one in the same with all terrorists funded with petrol dollars...The muslims routinely burn to death women and children, hack off little arms of those young believers -followers of Christ who refuse to convert. This is a war on terrorism...The Palestinans are one clan of many who support and kill our friends and allies. And who are a gathering storm inside the U.S. gathering political power and immunity from retalliation. If the IDF were doing the butchering you claim...better to prep the area with arty and air strikes and save all their own troops..they cant ..why? The Marxist press hovers over every islamic lie and publishes it as truth and the gulible public sucks it up like hoovers...then spits it back out on forums The palestinans set up their positions inside civilian positions to draw fire..and to hide behind innocents knowing full well that when the counter attack takes place these innocents will die..and their buddies in the commie press will be there to report the "atrocities"..The learned from the VC via the Chinese and Russians and perhaps Uncle Ho's boyze as well...but the tactics are clear and they worked in Vietnam... Flush out your head gear G-man
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:41:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Slaughter has occurred there FOREVER. I look at the way things are NOW.
View Quote
I can't beleive an intelligent person like you just posted that. ESPECIALLY IN THIS REGION OF THE WORLD, "here and now" has NO MEANING outside of historical context. To BOTH sides of this dispute, history is EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING. Please retract or clarify your statement.
The Israelis' goal is NOT the WHOLESALE SLAUGHTER of the entire Palestinian Population. The same can't be said of their savage neighbors.
View Quote
This is an untrue statement. The city of jericho was razed by the Israelis, and EVERYONE, women, children, old men, ALL killed, with the exception of one family. Even the animals were all slaughtered, and then the city burned. (Where's PETA when you need them [}:D] ) I could give an extensive list of acts of genocide commited by the Israelis, following the massacre at Jericho. THe Israelis STATED intent was to wipe the inhabitants of the land off the face of the earth. THEY STARTED IT.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:47:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 5:50:44 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
Good Lord, man! You're talking about thousands of years ago! At that time, YOURS and My ancestors were SAVAGES in Europe. So what? Keep it within the last hundred years. (otherwise, we'll just have to give the Indians their land, and start paying those reparations...) But gman, you yourself constantly quote scripture, to PROVE that the Israelis/Jews of today ARE NOT the Israelis/Jews of the past. If you won't allow them to benefit from their legacy (that you have proven to be broken), don't tar them with it. You can't have it both ways.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:48:48 AM EDT
Its the PLO and the PA causing the probs...The rest of the Arabs living in Israel outside of teh PLO and Arafats dictatorship are doing fine... They are not living in armed camps...the dictatorship is from Arafat..the Egyption.. There are NO democracies among Islamic nations...the only democracy they know is when they live in the freedom others have built...they then try to take it over..they are doing this in the European nations and they are moving on the US as well...Israel is the ONLY nation that gives the Palestinians citizenship as well as representation in the legislature..the Palestinians/arabs liviing outside the occupied territories are doing fine...they go to work every day..they vote in elections ..they hold public office...their kids to to school get medical treatment when needed , are fed , housed, and clothed...everything else they desire they can achieve if they study hard and work hard.. The horror you imagine or have put yourself and family into is the direct result of ARAFAT'S DICTORSHIP AND BLOOD FUED WITH ALL JEWS I think he said he wasnt anti semetic either cause he loves Jewish rye bread but hes a putz to...
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:56:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from garandman -
1. Historical Israeli massacres.
View Quote
B-b-b-but, [b]garandman[/b], [u]you[/u] have so thoroughly preached [i][b]ad nauseum[/b][/i] that these present-day Israelis have [b]no connection whatsoever[/b], in any shape, manner, or form, to those ancient Israelites from the Old Testament times. Remember? So were you mistaken [u]then[/u], or are you [u]mistaken[/u] now? So which is it? Eric The(AlwaysLearning)Hun[>]:)]
View Quote
Well, let me learn you some more - on legal issues. BOTH parties in the dispute disagree with me. The israelis claim that they are the same historical Israelis that committed genocide against the former inhabitants of the land. This is de facto admission of guilt. The Palestininans also beleive this to be the case. I could be wrong that these are not the same Israelis, since BOTH parties agree that they are. Still, I maintain that the current day "Israelis" have at the VERY least "impure" blood lineage to Abraham, a violation of the covenant, thereby disqualifying them from Scriptural Covenantal possession of the land. [b]AGAIN ERIC, AS I SAID BEFORE, YOU SEEM COMPLETELY INCAPABLE OF EVEN ACKNOWLEDGING OUR POINTS OF AGREEMENT, OR ANY CONCESSIONS I MAKE TOWARD ISRAEL, AND SEEM TO DESIRE ONLY CONFLICT. IT DAMAGES YOUR CREDIBILITY[/b]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 5:59:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 6:02:43 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
Originally Posted By garandman: Still, I maintain that the current day "Israelis" have at the VERY least "impure" blood lineage to Abraham, a violation of the covenant, thereby disqualifying them from Scriptural Covenantal possession of the land.
View Quote
Again, garandman. If this is so, how do you hold them responsible for atrocities committed by the REAL Jews of thousands of years ago (under the orders of God)? You can't have it both ways.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 6:11:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Good Lord, man!
View Quote
You found religion, I see [}:d]
You're talking about thousands of years ago! At that time, YOURS and My ancestors were SAVAGES in Europe. So what? Keep it within the last hundred years. (otherwise, we'll just have to give the Indians their land, and start paying those reparations...)
View Quote
If keep it in the last hundred years is your policy.... 1. No Indians were displaced in the last 100 years, so I'm off the hook there. 2. A hundred years from now, the Palestinians homicide bombers are off the hook, in your world. 3. Please don't ever again cite teh Second Amendment as basis for your gun rights. Its was ancient history, some 230 years ago. 4. The Declaration of Independence is moot and bunk. Its all or none. Second Amendment rights AND Israelis responsibility for 3,000 year old genocide, OR Israelis are off the hook, and the Second Amendment is NOT an available right for you.
But gman, you yourself constantly quote scripture, to PROVE that the Israelis/Jews of today ARE NOT the Israelis/Jews of the past. If you won't allow them to benefit from their legacy (that you have proven to be broken), don't tar them with it. You can't have it both ways.
View Quote
I addresssed that with Eric. I'm not advocating that the Israelis be judged by actions of 3,000 years ago - THEY ARE. If they are gonna use the past as claim to the land, they ALSO have to take responsibility for the actions of the past. Even if it is more than 100 years ago. Like you say, its a package deal. My intent is to take the Old Testament claims off the table for the Israleis, [b]NOT [/b]to put them on the hook for genocide committed 3,000 years ago. THEY HAVE DONE THAT TO THEMSELVES. And again, I cannot beleive you are advocating only the last 100 years matter. I think you stuck your foot in your mouth, and are looking for a graceful way to extract it. I'll turn around and let you do so, if you'll drop this rediculuous position. [}:D]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 6:19:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Again, garandman. If this is so, how do you hold them responsible for atrocities committed by the REAL Jews of thousands of years ago (under the orders of God)? You can't have it both ways.
View Quote
Again, I am [b]NOT[/b] doing that - THEY ARE. By trying to use the Old testament as a basis for their covenantal rights, THEY are associating THEMSELVES with the genocide of 3,000 years ago. Package deal, either or. I'm showing the contradiction of their position, and you are trying to say its a contradiction I am advocating. IT IS NOT. ITS ***** THEIR ***** CONTRADICTION. My desire is NOT to put them on the hook for genocide, but to remove from them theh spurious claims of OT Covenantal right to the land. THEY have to decide, if they want Covenantal claims, to ALSO answer for genocide. Once OT claims are off the table, I welcome them to fight for the land anyway they choose, and push the Palestinians into the sea if they wish.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 6:25:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
The Israelis' goal is NOT the WHOLESALE SLAUGHTER of the entire Palestinian Population. The same can't be said of their savage neighbors.
View Quote
This is an untrue statement. The city of jericho was razed by the Israelis, and EVERYONE, women, children, old men, ALL killed, with the exception of one family. Even the animals were all slaughtered, and then the city burned. (Where's PETA when you need them [}:D] ) I could give an extensive list of acts of genocide commited by the Israelis, following the massacre at Jericho. THe Israelis STATED intent was to wipe the inhabitants of the land off the face of the earth. THEY STARTED IT.
View Quote
I just don't understand how you can say the above, then. Help me out, please clarify.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 6:43:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Originally Posted By garandman: THe Israelis STATED intent was to wipe the inhabitants of the land off the face of the earth. THEY STARTED IT.
View Quote
I just don't understand how you can say the above, then. Help me out, please clarify.
View Quote
I'm simply saying that IF teh Israelis wish to use blood lineage to Abraham and OT Covenantal promises as their basis for claim to the land, they ALSO have to recognize the acts of genocide committed by the blood relatives of Abraham, and admit that THEIR ANCESTORS started the practice of killing women and children (i.e.e terrorism) in the region. Extending a bit of credibility to palestinain claims. Not much, but a tad. Its the equivalent of a murderer fugitive from justice showing up in probate court to claim his deceased rich uncles $100M inheritance that he deserves as beneficiary of theh will. Proper identification will be required, which also will reveal him as the murderer. Sure, the loot is his, but he'll ALSO have to stand trial and go to jail. A package deal. I'm presenting the conundrum israel faces - NOT advocating that they answer for genocide. Again, my desire is to disprove OT Covenantal claims. My area of interest is the misguided church of Jesus Christ that is busy advocating political policy based on a faulty understanding of Scripture. I find THAT repugnant. As to what you, or the Palestinians, or the Israelis do or beleive, that is between you all and God.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 6:46:49 AM EDT
Martin Luther's Change Of Heart...enlightenment or hardening? Here is some of Luthers descent into madness of ascent into enlightement depending upon the wisdom God has given you or taken away... [url]http://www.mdcplus.com/web/pokeyjoe/images/dancingpali.gif[/url] The Hebrews came out of Egypt and were the chosen ones of G_d The received the Law..the Ten Commandments...and the consequences These same Hebrews fragmented into the nations of Judah and Israel Are the Jews of the modern world the genetic descendants of the Children of Israel? I say yes..they are still the blood relatives of the Lord Jesus and all of our early church. What do we owe them? If anything?..What is their relevance?..What can we obtain from them?..What do they what have they contributed to us?.. Imo they are still the descendants of Christ and are still the rightfull keepers of Israel and the city of Jerusalem..Islam is a false religion a religion of satan not the G_d of Abraham, Iasaac, and Jacob..Therefor they have no entitlments other than the ones the Israellis confer on them.. (which are substantial compared to even their own kind ..(who are the wealthiest theocracies on earth btw) From a tactical point of view ...we absolutely need Israel ..in the hands of Israelis and not the Euro Union or UN (aka NWO).. 09-11-01 should have settled that in Americans mind ..but it obviously has not. The Islamic terrorists of Palestine are being rationalized and excused and enabled ..while the terrs of Saudi Arabia are being half hunted in Afghanistan while their supply chain in Saudi Arabia and their support in Europe and the US remains not only intact but is growing..go figure...
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 7:00:20 AM EDT
[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/671275/posts[/url] Even Commies agree with the PLO and PA ,Hammas, Hizbollah,al-Quaeda, Islmamic Jihaad, and Gman on Israel...good company y'all keep.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 7:20:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: [url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/671275/posts[/url] Even Commies agree with the PLO and PA ,Hammas, Hizbollah,al-Quaeda, Islmamic Jihaad, and Gman on Israel...good company y'all keep.
View Quote
Pretty cheap, divdoc. Are the Commies and Hezbollah advocating that the Israelis embrace their Messiah, and reach the lofty, gloroius position God intended for them, as I am???? On the other hand, the Commies and Hezbollah ALSO beleive the sun rises in the east. Does that align you with them???? I've said it before, and been proved right repeatedly - you Israel loyalists CANNOT craft a solid argument WITHOUT resorting to attacking and smearing your opponent. And frankly, I LOVE IT when you do it, because the fence-sitters SEE the vitriol and vacuousness of your position, and it pushes them away from your bias. If you have even a SHRED of decency, you'll apologize, and delete your post that I have quoted above (and them I'll delete this post also) Trying to associate me with the Communist butchers, or the Hezbollah terrorists....if it wasn't so reprehensible and degenberate, it would be laughable.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 7:24:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 7:36:03 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
garandman, would you consider it so loving an act, if someone wanted YOU to renounce YOUR faith, and adopt THEIR'S? Somehow, I doubt it. You should really stop patting yourself on the back for doing the same.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 7:36:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: garandman, would you consider it so loving an act, if someone wanted YOU to renounce YOUR faith?
View Quote
Yes, I would. Becasue someone HAS already asked me, and I did renounce my faith. And from where I stand right now, its the best thing I ever did, and the person who asked it of me the most, loving caring person I have ever known. I simply want them to know the PRICELESS gift I have received. Then they can make their own judgment if they wish to receive it. Would I be offended if someone asked me to give them my house? No. I'd just say "doubt it" and move on. Theres NO offense in ASKING someone to do something. Lighten up. The problem is my Christian brethren are SOOOO busy patting political Israel on teh back, they have FORGOTTEN Christ's [b]command [/b] to us to "preach Christ" to the Jewish man. An offer which he is free to refuse, and I have NO desire to force upon him.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 7:42:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2002 7:44:30 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
No, I mean NOW. Would you consider it such a loving act for someone NOW try ask YOU to renounce your CURRENT faith? I doubt it. This may come as a shock to you, but people of faiths other than yours, actually believe their's to be the true faith, and your's the false. That's how it works.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 8:00:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: No, I mean NOW. Would you consider it such a loving act for someone NOW try ask YOU to renounce your CURRENT faith? I doubt it. This may come as a shock to you, but people of faiths other than yours, actually believe their's to be the true faith, and your's the false. That's how it works.
View Quote
Again, yes I would. If they TRULY beleive (as I do) that they have the most precious gift the world has ever known, and they wish to move outside the selfishenss and self-interest that so often consumes us all, and they wish to share that precious gift with me, [b]WHERE's THE HARM???[/b] Good gravy, man. I'd thank them for their concern, and for thinking of me (as long as thier offer was made the SAME as my offer, one I am free to reject, and they have no desire to force on me) [b]You see, I have a mind and an intellect that I am in control of. Which I can use to evaluate their offer. [/b]When a salesman accosts me and wishes to sell me a widget, or a telemarketer calls me at dinnertime, I don't feel intellectually threatened. I'm not offended, or scarred for life. I either say "No thank you" or "eat worms, buddy" and move on with my life. At worst, I am momentarily [b]annoyed, but IT PASSES. I LIVE TO TELL ABOUT IT. NO LASTING EMOTIONAL SCARS.[/b] Same with others asking me to renounce my faith. Its is the Christians responsibility to present the Gospel with the minimal annoyance, understanding that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is offensive all by itself, according to Christ's own words. Your making a mountain out of an ant hill. OF COURSE other people beleive their faith as strongly as I beleive mine. But in the free marketpalce of ideas, we can exchange viewpoints, and compare notes.[b] NO ONE should be "taking offense" at an idea being presented.[/b] beleive me or don't, I don't really care, but I can and have been approached by peoples of various faiths, from JW's, to Buddhists, to Muslims to Krishnas and been asked to renounce my faith for theirs. ONLY A WEAK MIND FEELS THREATENED BY A FREE OFFER. Again, I thank them for their kindness to share their faith, and I move on with my life.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 8:05:04 AM EDT
Well, that's mighty Christian of you, I suppose...[:)]
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 8:16:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Well, that's mighty Christian of you, I suppose...[:)]
View Quote
And THAT is an IMMENSELY important point. We Christians are commanded in Scripture to NOT be an offense to the world, to hinder anyone from coming to Christ, or bring shame upon the name of Christ. By siding with a political entity, my Christian brethren have angered and alienated literally BILLIONS of Muslims from even considering the Gospel of Jesus Christ. AS WELL AS distracting those persons of that political entity from considering the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Its an anti-Gospel double whammy. I DO NOT beleive Christ will hold them guiltless for that. So I warn them. And warn them and warm them. Again and again.
Top Top