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Posted: 4/20/2002 8:42:06 AM EDT
I don't know if this has been posted yet... Just a heads-up... [url]www.ammoman.com/ban.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:44:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 8:46:44 AM EDT by shooter69]
Ugh!! [BD] Once again I've been mugged.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 9:07:40 AM EDT
You can blame this on [b]Al Gore[/b]. Didn't he invent the Internet? [puke]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 9:24:29 AM EDT
So is this going to be the law or is it up for a vote. If UPS delivers and you sign can't he be considered the middleman for the dealer. I guess Reloading equipment is going to see a rise in sales
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 9:59:22 AM EDT
Can someone tack this up? We need to jump on this one.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:05:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:56:13 AM EDT
Sons of whores. They will continue to whittle away at our rights, step by step, until we organize & act. Soon you will have to have an ATF agent come w/ you to buy a weapon or ammo...
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:14:40 AM EDT
Totally sucks. Time to contact all the politicians again.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:21:11 AM EDT
Guys, don't get too worked up over this bill. Sure it is a horrid bill, but 95% of bills introduced go nowhere. Until there are hearings on the bill, don't worry about it.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:29:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: Guys, don't get too worked up over this bill. Sure it is a horrid bill, but 95% of bills introduced go nowhere. Until there are hearings on the bill, don't worry about it.
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Normally, I'd agree with you, but this is a Congressional election year...and an extremely crucial one at that. They've timed this specifically so it'll become an issue for the elections later this year. This is designed to either pass or become an extremely troublesome issue for pro-gun legislators at the election.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:57:01 AM EDT
------------------------------------------------ Originally Posted By libertyof76: Guys, don't get too worked up over this bill. Sure it is a horrid bill, but 95% of bills introduced go nowhere. Until there are hearings on the bill, don't worry about it. ------------------------------------------------ Gents not to sound pesimistic but if you think about the current geopolitical situation, this bill will be difficult if not impossible to beat. The simple fact is that terrorist have the same access as we do to ammo. This is just a way to provide the Feds the ability to track the movement of ammo. I agree it sucks, but the actions of a few affect many in more ways than one. I have a bad feeling about the assault weapon ban sunsetting in 2004. I believe something worse is in the making. All of you who think that postbans are the same if not equal are going to see different in next few years. This sucks. [pissed] Max
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 1:35:10 PM EDT
... you guys that are registered on other friendly site need to spread the word.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 2:45:12 PM EDT
I wonder if Wal-Mart and Galyans support this bill.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 4:44:52 PM EDT
[rant] ferchristsakes... another example of the pussification of this country... Lemme guess... It's for the children, right? I don't have any kids and never will so leave me and the rest of the honest people alone already... [/rant]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 5:28:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By maxell27: The simple fact is that terrorist have the same access as we do to ammo. This is just a way to provide the Feds the ability to track the movement of ammo. This sucks. [pissed] Max
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WHy would terrorists buy ammo on line? They can get it MUCH CHEAPER in their home countries than here. Just like with automatic weapons. But I do think that this sucks. Always trying to screw us.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:15:53 PM EDT
This is absolutely nasty! Time to e-mail the congressmen! [frag]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:39:53 PM EDT
When you ban something it becomes more popular. You'd think politicians would realize this fact but they won't, sales of ammo will increase soon. Can I buy shares of stock in Federal, Remington? Here's an idea that maybe wasn't given enough chance to catch on, Prohibition! [;)]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:55:39 PM EDT
If this passes people will be dragging themselfs through broken glass to get mail order ammo right befor the ban becomes effective. And every back woods reloader is your new best friend for those loads you cant get at your local shop this reallly sucks!
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:04:21 PM EDT
Something in my gut tells me that this POS bill has a real chance of passing. Seems like the kind of thing that they will try to slip by in the dead of night, and probably succeed! So... this means that we [b]REALLY[/b] have to get after our congressional representatives on this one, and make sure it [b]DOES NOT HAPPEN!!![/b] I would also suggest that we write the House Majority Leader (Dick Armey), and the Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee (F. James Sensenbrenner. Jr.), and urge them to kill this piece of legislation before it ever comes to a vote. -Congressman / House Majority Leader Dick Armey 301 Cannon House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515-4326 & 9901 East Valley Ranch Parkway Suite 3050 Irving, TX. 75063 -Congressman / Chairman of the Committee on the Judiciary F. James Sensenbrenner. Jr. 2332 Rayburn House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515-4909 & 2138 Rayburn House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515 (Address of the Chairman's office, separate from his regular office above). Time to fire up those word processing programs, and lick some stamps folks. [b]This ain't no hobby, its a war!!![/b]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:08:31 PM EDT
In Phoenix you can beat any mailhouse by at least 10%. People by ammo by the pallet or case down here!
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:09:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dragracer_Art: I don't know if this has been posted yet... Just a heads-up... [url]www.ammoman.com/ban.htm[/url]
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So goes the war on terrorism.........[whacko]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:23:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: In Phoenix you can beat any mailhouse by at least 10%. People by ammo by the pallet or case down here!
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Indeed!
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:46:33 PM EDT
They are slowly trying to revoke the reforms of FOPA. Unfortunately, I don't see anybody stepping up to repeal the one bad provision of FOPA (MG Ban). If you don't know exactly what I mean: FOPA was the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986. It undid alot of the damage done by the GCA of 1968. Prior to 1986, you could not buy this stuff by mail, gun shows were virtually illegal (dealers could not use them), and anybody selling their private collection was subject to arrest by ATF goons who could freely interpret the defintion of a dealer since there was no definition of "in the business." The msot important part was 926A which pre-empts local laws when traveling with a firearm in a locked case. The Democrats are attempting to slowly undo the reforms of 1986. Once they ban mail order ammo., they will require all ammo. dealers to be FFLs. Once that is done, they will push to ban gun shows. Then, they will push to make all sales require an FFL. Then, they will push to repeal 926A making it impossible to travel with guns through Anti-Gun states. Once they have returned to Pre-1986 (except for 922(o) which they will never repeal), they will push for more laws...We must fight this one. I personally disagree with all the pessimests who believe this bill has a chance. A similar bill was proposed a short time back and it was never heard of again (DOA).
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 7:21:49 AM EDT
Ok, so if I read that correctly they want you to exchange the ammo and money at the time of sale correct? No pre-payment? If that is the case order your ammo COD so you can pay upon delivery, the UPS or Fedex driver is just a representative of the seller during the transaction. How far off base am I? I was never great at decoding their legalese mumbo jumbo. Sometimes I feel like I need an Enigma machine.[>:/] BrenLover
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:22:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By libertyof76: Guys, don't get too worked up over this bill. Sure it is a horrid bill, but 95% of bills introduced go nowhere. Until there are hearings on the bill, don't worry about it.
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True but the fact they even try pisses me off to now extent. Do not let there attempts, no matter how feable or idiotic, go unanswered.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 9:52:30 AM EDT
SorryOciffer, I believe you are on to something...
(z) (1) It shall be unlawful for a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell ammunition to a person not licensed under this chapter unless any thing of value accepted by the licensee in exchange for the ammunition is presented in person by the transferee at the time of the transfer. (2) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer who sells ammunition to a person not licensed under this chapter shall include in the record of the transfer a detailed description of any thing of value accepted by the licensee in exchange for the ammunition.
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English Translation:
(z) (1) Any FFL who sells ammunition to a non-FFL must be payed for the ammunition in person by the buyer at the time of sale. (2) Any FFL who sells ammunition to a non-FFL must log in their bound book the amount of money the FFL received for the ammunition.
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How exactly does COD work ???
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 10:18:36 AM EDT
English Translation of entire bill:
107th CONGRESS 2nd Session H.R. 4101 To amend Federal Law, to require firearms, ammunition, and explosives purchases to be made in person and to require records to be kept of the price for which they sold. Introduced in the House of Representatives on April 9, 2002 by Crowley on behalf of the following traitors: Crowley, Wexler, George Miller (PRK), Engel, Moran (VA), Capuana, McGovern, Mccarthy (NY), Blagojevich, Clay, and Woolsey The bill was referred to the Judiciary Committee. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Bill To amend Federal Law, to require firearms, ammunition, and explosives purchases to be made in person and to require records to be kept of the price for which they sold. [Required Enactment Clause. Mostly meaningless. Found in all Bills.] Section 1. Short Title Electronic Commerce Crime Prevention and Protection Act Section 2 -- Requirement That Firearms, Ammunition, & Explosive Purchases be made in Person; Logging of Price Paid. (a) Firearms -- The Brady Law, is amended-- (1) (A) by removing the word "and" at the end of 922(t)(1)(B)(ii); (B) by removing the period at the end of subparagraph 922(t)(1)(C); and (C) by adding the following at the end: "(D) payment for the firearm is made in person by the buyer at the time of sale."; and (2) "and the price paid for the firearm" is added just before the period in 922(t)(4). (b) Ammunition -- (1) Overview -- The following new subsection is added to Section 922: "(z)(1) Any FFL who sells ammunition to a non-FFL must be payed for the ammunition in person by the buyer at the time of sale."; and "(2) Any FFL who sells ammunition to a non-FFL must log in their bound book the amount of money the FFL received for the ammunition." (2) Penalties -- Anybody who violates this law will be fined and/or sentenced to 1 year of ass raping by Bubba in Club Fed. (c) Explosives -- Federal Explosives law is amended -- (1) by adding ", and the price paid for any explosive materials sold" before the period at the end of the 1st sentence in 845(f); and (2) by adding the following at the end : "(q) A lisencee may not sell any explosive materials to any person who is not a licensee or permittee, unless payment is made in person by the buyer at the time of sale."
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Link Posted: 4/21/2002 10:27:23 AM EDT
here are some simple phrases in legaleese:
title 18, United States Code
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Federal Criminal Law
the means by which the purchases are made
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the price they sold for
licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer
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FFL (other than C&R)
person not licensed under this chapter
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Non-FFL
record of the transfer
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Form 4473
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 11:11:21 AM EDT
It's not complicated, just an added pain in the butt. The buyer pays an extra amount, normally less than $10 for the shipper to go throught the steps of collecting the cash and passing it on to the seller. There is aanother slip or two of paperwork to fill out but that's about it. The COD would cover the whole transaction so reguarless of the ammount of ammo the COD cost is the same.\BrenLover
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 12:39:30 PM EDT
[img]www.arches.uga.edu/~rtkneib/Personal/Commentary/Images%20Commentary/My%20line%20in%20the%20sand.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 10:24:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SorryOciffer: It's not complicated, just an added pain in the butt. The buyer pays an extra amount, normally less than $10 for the shipper to go throught the steps of collecting the cash and passing it on to the seller. There is aanother slip or two of paperwork to fill out but that's about it. The COD would cover the whole transaction so reguarless of the ammount of ammo the COD cost is the same.\BrenLover
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Ah yes, just the type of response they want to hear. Ever hear of gradualism? Keep passing laws that are just *a little* imposing than the previous one. After a few years of this, people finally realize how much was lost and stand there with a "how in the hell did they do that" look on their faces.
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 4:27:56 AM EDT
Imbro, Where in my post did I say I approved of their plot or that it wasn't a big deal? It sucks. I merely proposed an idea that may be a way around it if proposed and someone wanted to know how a COD worked and I told them. I'm glad to see we have resident mind reader/someone who can sniff out the secret thoughts in someones writing. Go outside, get some fresh air and shoot your 10/22, after all you can get 22s by the brick at Wally World. BrenLover
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 8:58:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/22/2002 9:00:15 AM EDT by rttc]
Not only SUCKS but BLOWS too![B)]
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 9:29:41 AM EDT
Hey Imbroglio & SorryOciffer, no flame intended, but instead of posting your gripes about each other, you guys should post copies of the letters that you have drafted, and sent to your elected representatives. Give the rest of us some ideas on what to say, and how to phrase it. Personally, I am going to write my letters tonight, and I will post the results ASAP. Let's stay on point guys! We all have the same goals!
Link Posted: 4/22/2002 9:48:40 AM EDT
NY Patriot, Your right, its not worth going of on each other. Imbro, it was nothing personal and I appologise for any offense taken however dont assume you know a persons thoughts or standing based on one post in a thread. Peace, BrenLover
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 6:51:45 AM EDT
Just once I'd like to see a law that impeded Congress' continual meddling with society. They are continually trying to fix things that aren't broken. These scum sucking motherfukkers are a cancer on society. Who the hell keeps electing them?
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 8:44:51 AM EDT
Marvl, They do it to justify their jobs, its hard to justify $200k jobs, huge staffs, and perks if your not constantly doing something. They get elected by the same know nothing people who buy into all they say about if they aren't in office then ABC will be taken from them or that XYZ will cause the children or elderly to go hungry, bull$hit like that. What we need are Regional Darwin Award Contests to see how many of these losers we can flush from from the gene pool. BrenLover
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 12:03:45 PM EDT
Well here is the letter that I wrote to my Rep. Feel free to mix, match, cut, paste, and generally adapt my letter to suit your needs.
Dear Congressperson Lowey, I would like to bring to your attention, and strongly urge you to oppose H.R. 4101 (a proposed amendment to title 18 U.S.C.), which would require all ammunition purchases to be made in person, and would require that records be kept of all ammunition sales to private citizens. While I imagine that this bill was authored with good intentions, I feel obligated to point out that if passed, it will also carry with it unintended consequences that will adversely effect every American gun owner. If passed… -This bill will seriously hamper the affordability of the shooting sports for most Americans. This in turn will negatively effect the general level of proficiency and familiarity with the safe usage of firearms, for both aspects are ingrained and reinforced through extensive practice. In short, more expensive ammunition = less range time = less safe usage and knowledge of firearms. - This bill will seriously limit the availability of ammunition for law abiding people who do not live in close proximity to licensed gun dealers, or ammunition sellers. -This bill will put out of business most reputable ammunition retailers who do business by mail order. This will result in more unemployed Americans, and in a further weakening of our nations precarious economy. - Lastly, this bill constitutes yet another infringement of that which "…shall not be infringed." Americans have the right to keep and bear arms free from government interference. Thus, I once again urge you to stand against H.R. 4101 should it come up for a vote. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to your reply.
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Link Posted: 4/24/2002 8:08:31 AM EDT
I used to make a point to make I write my Senators and my Reprentive atleast once a till about last year. I guess its time to start again. The Battle is never going to end.
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 9:33:59 AM EDT
Posted by Sixgun357...
I used to make a point to make I write my Senators and my Reprentive atleast once a till about last year. I guess its time to start again. The Battle is never going to end.
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You better believe it Sixgun. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
Link Posted: 4/24/2002 3:16:38 PM EDT
Lucky I live in Canada. For some people here the only way to get ammo is from mail order. Once we got about 30 guys on a military base together and order over 20,000 303. It Came on one of those wooden pellets. Well best of luck to your Americans
Link Posted: 4/25/2002 9:25:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2002 9:39:04 AM EDT by NYPatriot]
Thanks for the words of encouragement SigBlueStar! Don't let this thread die on the vine guys! It is too important. Every letter that a politician receives is assumed to represent the opinion of THOUSANDS of voters!!! Talk about a cheap and easy force multiplier!!! So... Let's see some other examples of letters that we have sent to our Reps. Give your fellow board members some different arguments and approaches to draw from for their letters!
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 8:15:34 AM EDT
This is a bunch of Bull Shi#! In my opinion this is the act of a tyrannical government![argue] FTGOV
Link Posted: 4/26/2002 10:29:40 AM EDT
Looks like the bill is currently in the Judiciary committee, whose members are: (http://www.house.gov/judiciary/members.htm) MR. F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (WISCONSIN), CHAIRMAN Mr. Hyde (Illinois) Mr. Conyers (Michigan) Ranking Mr. Gekas (Pennsylvania) Mr. Frank (Massachusetts) Mr. Coble (North Carolina) Mr. Berman (California) Mr. Smith (Texas) Mr. Boucher (Virginia) Mr. Gallegly (California) Mr. Nadler (New York) Mr. Goodlatte (Virginia) Mr. Scott (Virginia) Mr. Bryant (Tennessee) Mr. Watt (North Carolina) Mr. Chabot (Ohio) Ms. Lofgren (California) Mr. Barr (Georgia) Ms. Jackson Lee (Texas) Mr. Jenkins (Tennessee) Ms. Waters (California) Mr. Cannon (Utah) Mr. Meehan (Massachusetts) Mr. Graham (South Carolina) Mr. Delahunt (Massachusetts) Mr. Bachus (Alabama) Mr. Wexler (Florida) Mr. Hostettler (Indiana) Ms. Baldwin (Wisconsin) Mr. Green (Wisconsin) Mr. Weiner (New York) Mr. Keller (Florida) Mr. Schiff (California) Mr. Issa (California) Ms. Hart(Pennsylvania) Mr. Flake (Arizona) Mr. Pence (Indiana) If you see your congresscritter on the list, start writing letters! And if you don't, write some letters anyways! I don't know if this stands much chance of passing, but we should write letters and make phone calls anyways. It can't hurt to let them know that the sh*t will hit the fan if they even think about pissing off gun owners.
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 8:58:49 AM EDT
I believe it's part of the overall plan to destroy our bill of rights, maybe not in our lifetime but our childrens. Just take a good close look at what is happening in the everyday events. Just my .3 cents worth..
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 9:09:05 AM EDT
When will stupid politicians learn that they can ban whatever the fuck they want but the criminals will still commit crimes with illegal weapons. When was the last time a criminal said " Hmmm maybe I won't rob this bank with this illeagal firearm? " Oh yea and doesn't Germany have one of the more stringent rules on firearms? Worked well for them only 18 dead in that school shooting!! [:\]
Link Posted: 4/27/2002 10:31:15 AM EDT
[b]What is the time frame on this bill? When will we know if it has a chance of going through or not? A few weeks? A few months?[/b] __ FS
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 11:01:53 AM EDT
I'm sorry but this didn't work the last time it was done. In the late 60's and earily 70's (in Iowa where I grew up) all ammo sellers had to keep track of ammo sales with name, address, SS#, DL#...........Idea was to reduce crime.......it didn't work.......cost a lot of money and time but didn't decrease crime at all. a big waste of money. Just another anti gun scheem to give honest citizens a problem. The Demorat Nazi are on the move again. DA
Link Posted: 4/28/2002 6:32:09 PM EDT
Here mace, I fixed your url. Contact info can be found at [url]www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.html[/url]
Link Posted: 4/30/2002 7:03:30 AM EDT
Send the letters, but this is a bill with no cause and no public opinion. Its a taxation scheme which if you ask most people, they'll agree that taxes are bad, mmmmm kay? Don't sweat this one too much!
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