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Posted: 4/19/2002 4:28:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 4:37:58 AM EDT
Amen, Brother. The fact that it was a native-born American that did this deed is shameful. The fact that this native-born American, who once served this country with distinction, thought he was taking revenge against acts of wanton brutality, destruction, and murder by the Federal Government at Waco, is not the point. Each evildoer is responsible for their own actions! [b]And McVeigh has paid a very high price for his unspeakable sin.[/b] [b]Meanwhile, at last report, Janet Reno is still at large![/b] Eric The(LastSeenInARedPickupTruckInFlorida)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 5:15:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 5:26:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mcgrubbs: I don't mean to bring anyone down, or ruin your day. Seven years ago today, a truck bomb went off in front of the Murrah Federal Building in OKC, OK. And it was an American who was arrested, tried, convicted, and executed for the crime. To me it doesn't matter if you think he did it or not. It was still an absolute tragedy. No one should resort to killing babies to make a point. God Bless The Victims and Their Families. God Bless the United States or America.
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[b]Remember Waco!![/b] Don't forget Concord and Lexington either!!
Link Posted: 4/19/2002 8:32:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By mcgrubbs: I don't mean to bring anyone down, or ruin your day. Seven years ago today, a truck bomb went off in front of the Murrah Federal Building in OKC, OK. And it was an American who was arrested, tried, convicted, and executed for the crime. To me it doesn't matter if you think he did it or not. It was still an absolute tragedy. No one should resort to killing babies to make a point. God Bless The Victims and Their Families. God Bless the United States or America.
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[b]Remember Waco!![/b] Don't forget Concord and Lexington either!!
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Amazing how much more restrained the federal government has been since 1995. . . .
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:29:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 7:29:52 AM EDT by AZCOP]
McVeigh didn't know about the day care center, but the feds knew about the kids in the B.D. complex: That is the difference. Jay [img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:42:24 AM EDT
McVeigh knew about the child care center. He is a murderer. No different than the FBI at Waco or Lon Horiuchi at Ruby Ridge. There is no justification for what he did. There is no justification for what the others did. Is claiming that he didn't know about the child care center supposed to make it acceptable? McVeigh is not and will not ever be a Patrick Henry. He was a murdering coward and I only regret that he had but one life to give by leathal injection. Which, by the way was a cowardly way for a coward to die.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:50:27 AM EDT
Lets not forget it was my birthday too. Its always kinda hard to celebrate when your constantly thinking of all thats happened on this day.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:42:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By schapman43: Lets not forget it was my birthday too. Its always kinda hard to celebrate when your constantly thinking of all thats happened on this day.
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My dad's birthday was September 11th. He doesn't like that much at all.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:57:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/28/2002 6:06:53 PM EDT by Blaze-Of-Glory]
mcgrubbs said: No one should resort to killing babies to make a point.
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Remembering the kids slaughtered at Waco. Remembering the kids slaughtered by Americans in Iraq. Rembering the kids slaughtered in Oklamhoma City. I doubt McVeigh enjoyed their deaths, as I doubt the American soldiers are happy about the dead children in Iraq. Remembering McVeigh, and thankful that he raised my awareness of the Waco massacre.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:18:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By schapman43: Lets not forget it was my birthday too. Its always kinda hard to celebrate when your constantly thinking of all thats happened on this day.
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A belated Happy Birthday!
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:32:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Blaze-Of-Glory: Remembering McVeigh, and thankful that he raised my awareness of the Waco massacre.
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You need McVeigh to raise your awareness of the Waco massacre? Sad.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:45:22 AM EDT
Yeah, McVeigh raised my awareness. Before the O.C. bombing I believed the rumors that the Branch Davidians somehow deserved to have been attacked. The way I see it, the children in O.C. were collateral damage in a war initiated by the government.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:48:51 AM EDT
[b]Meanwhile, at last report, Janet Reno is still at large![/b] Eric The(LastSeenInARedPickupTruckInFlorida)Hun[>]:)]
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And she is running for Governor of Florida!
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:51:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Blaze-Of-Glory: The way I see it, the children in O.C. were collateral damage in a war initiated by the government.
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[shock]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:59:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Blaze-Of-Glory: Yeah, McVeigh raised my awareness. Before the O.C. bombing I believed the rumors that the Branch Davidians somehow deserved to have been attacked. The way I see it, the children in O.C. were collateral damage in a war initiated by the government.
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Got kids? Do you think of [b]them[/b] as "collateral"? Sad.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 12:00:03 PM EDT
19.5 [url]http://www.enterprisemission.com/[/url]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 1:16:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Got kids? Do you think of [b]them[/b] as "collateral"? Sad.
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I don't have kids. How do you feel about the children killed by American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan? Rumsfeld calls them "collateral damage" and that's where I picked up the term.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 1:28:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed:
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By mcgrubbs: I don't mean to bring anyone down, or ruin your day. Seven years ago today, a truck bomb went off in front of the Murrah Federal Building in OKC, OK. And it was an American who was arrested, tried, convicted, and executed for the crime. To me it doesn't matter if you think he did it or not. It was still an absolute tragedy. No one should resort to killing babies to make a point. God Bless The Victims and Their Families. God Bless the United States or America.
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[b]Remember Waco!![/b] Don't forget Concord and Lexington either!!
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Amazing how much more restrained the federal government has been since 1995. . . .
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Just curious, was that sarcasm?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 2:35:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blaze-Of-Glory: Yeah, McVeigh raised my awareness. Before the O.C. bombing I believed the rumors that the Branch Davidians somehow deserved to have been attacked. The way I see it, the children in O.C. were collateral damage in a war initiated by the government.
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Is a car bombing against a target with mixed civilian/government personnel inside your idea of war?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 2:44:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blaze-Of-Glory: Remembering the kids slaughtered by Americans in Iraq.
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Say what? Are you are looking to live up to your chosen member ID? Those are fighting words, you anti-American jerk.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 2:49:04 PM EDT
At this juncture, I think an event such as a car bombing is a pretty lame attempt at removing your adversary from God's green earth. Not to mention the fact that innocents may be lurking about. No, one should eliminate one's adversary the old fashioned way. That way you know whether or not "the big one got away" and bystanders remained out of danger. Funny, so many people think they are tough these days. Tough? You want tough? Try fighting wars with swords, knives, and pikes like they did 1000 years ago. Planting a bomb and walking away is very crude and inefficient. One bullet or one knife can do the same thing with less "collateral damage."
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 3:40:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rainier: Is a car bombing against a target with mixed civilian/government personnel inside your idea of war?
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Yes, the feds initiated the war when they attacked the Branch Davidians. In Afghanistan and Iraq, the U.S. bombed targets with mixed civilian/government personnel. Why do you suggest McVeigh was any less legit? Shooter69, I don't think I'm anti-American. I'm one of the more pro-Constitution guys around. I'm not condemning the U.S. bombings of children in Afghanistan and Iraq, I'm just making the point that innocent children get bombed in every war; so if the feds didn't want their children bombed, they never should have rolled their tanks up on the Branch Davidians. Wobblin-Goblin, I am intrigued by the idea of focused sword, knife, and pike strikes.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 4:05:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 4:07:47 PM EDT by IMHO]
Originally Posted By Blaze-Of-Glory:
Originally Posted By Rainier: Is a car bombing against a target with mixed civilian/government personnel inside your idea of war?
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Yes, the feds initiated the war when they attacked the Branch Davidians. Shooter69, I don't think I'm anti-American. I'm one of the more pro-Constitution guys around. I'm not condemning the U.S. bombings of children in Afghanistan and Iraq, I'm just making the point that innocent children get bombed in every war; so if the feds didn't want their children bombed, they never should have rolled their tanks up on the Branch Davidians.
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I take a risk by correcting the punctuation of this post, but I think that it would be a better reflection of Blaze's feelings if it read: "Shooter69, I don't think! I'm anti-American! I'm one of the more pro-Constitution guys around. (I'm not.) Condemning the U.S. bombings of children in Afghanistan and Iraq! I'm just. Making the point that innocent children get bombed in every war; so if the feds didn't want their children bombed, they never should have rolled their tanks up on the Branch Davidians!" Again, this may, or may not better represent Blaze's feelings on the matter, just taking a stab, so to speak.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 4:23:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blaze-Of-Glory:
Originally Posted By DScott: Got kids? Do you think of [b]them[/b] as "collateral"? Sad.
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I don't have kids. How do you feel about the children killed by American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan? Rumsfeld calls them "collateral damage" and that's where I picked up the term.
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Besides the fact that these were American kids, that you could consider them casualties of war is asinine.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 4:40:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 5:03:39 PM EDT
Very clever IMHO, but without changing what I wrote, do you see something wrong with it? DScott, what's asinine about what I said? VA-gunnut, well-said in my opinion; and please don't worry too much about gun confiscation. I can always lend you a copy of my favorite [b]government-published[/b] book: Army Technical Manual TM31-210: Improvised Munitions Handbook. ("In Unconventional Warfare operations it may be impossible or unwise to use conventional military munitions as tools in the conduct of certain missions. It may be necessary instead to fabricate the required munitions from locally available or unassuming materials. The purpose of this Manual is to increase the potential of Special Forces and guerilla troops by describing in detail the manufacture of munitions from seemingly innocuous locally available materials.... This Manual includes methods for fabricating explosives, detonators, propellants, shaped charges [shock], small arms, mortars, incendiaries, delays, switches, and similar items from indigenous materials.")
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 5:50:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 5:55:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blaze-Of-Glory: Yeah, McVeigh raised my awareness. Before the O.C. bombing I believed the rumors that the Branch Davidians somehow deserved to have been attacked. The way I see it, the children in O.C. were collateral damage in a war initiated by the government.
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WOW!! THAT IS QUITE A REACH...Calling any AMERICAN collateral damage is UNAMERICAN.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 5:57:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blaze-Of-Glory: ... DScott, what's asinine about what I said? ... You said: "The way I see it, the children in O.C. were collateral damage in a war initiated by the government." For starters, to say that is to excuse their deaths, to justify McVeigh's actions, and express your support for killing all those people, incuding infants and children. Clearly, you think the battle has already been joined and those deaths are acceptable. McVeigh himself used those terms to describe the deaths of the 19 children. He is a criminal, and deserved to die. What did those "collaterals" do to deserve to be killed? All those manuals for killing don't mean shit if you've got nothing to live (or die) for. I'm not sure whether to wish you'll have children so you might understand what a horror it would be to lose them, or to feel glad you don't.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:04:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 6:05:12 PM EDT by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:13:39 PM EDT
Nobody likes the fact that 19 or so babies died in that event. Everybody likes the idea that the Government/Mob looks to that everyday when they consider tyranny. No Judge or Senator or law enforcement officer should feel like they cannot be touched. I like the fact that anyone in the Pentagon signing papers for war that costs lives of thousands of people might now have the inner need to wear a helmet at his desk. Sorry about their trouble,though.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:41:07 PM EDT
What McVeigh did was wrong. The fact that he blew up a federal building wasn't wrong that fact that people died in that federal building wasn't wrong. Every american has the constitutional right to revolt aginst the govt if their life, liberty, or happiness is being trampled upon. His only crime was the death of people not affiliated with the govt. He killed people and got caught and now he is dead. I suspect that someday if we contimue on this course that many of us will be killing other americans. It scares me that so many other gun owners won't accept that this is a possible reality. I am not looking forward to it but unless things change I would happily kill and possibly die to make this country as free as it was before. Everyone of us has a different point where we have had enough, I guess the govt crossed McVeighs.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:43:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rainier: My dad's birthday was September 11th. He doesn't like that much at all.
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My birthday was September 11th, too. I'll never forgive the islamic scum for ruining it for me as long as I live.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:44:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: Nobody likes the fact that 19 or so babies died in that event. Everybody likes the idea that the Government/Mob looks to that everyday when they consider tyranny. No Judge or Senator or law enforcement officer should feel like they cannot be touched. I like the fact that anyone in the Pentagon signing papers for war that costs lives of thousands of people might now have the inner need to wear a helmet at his desk. Sorry about their trouble,though.
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I don;t really understand your answer. But what I do get from Blaze of Glory is that is is"war" somehow- let me ask then, if this is war, then it's acceptable for the gov.org that is "the enemy" can kill you and your family if they think you're *their* enemy?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:45:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 6:45:56 PM EDT by Blaze-Of-Glory]
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: you seems to be advertising your capabilities a little too much.
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it's just a book that our government sold me. And I'm not the only one who's read it.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:49:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FirearmTom1: WOW!! THAT IS QUITE A REACH...Calling any AMERICAN collateral damage is UNAMERICAN.
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What I think is UnAmerican is an illegal attack on the American citizens of Waco, the illegal infringment of the right to bear arms, etc. And I think it would break the Founding Fathers' hearts to see citizens letting the government get away with murder.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 6:59:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: ... What did those "collaterals" do to deserve to be killed? I'm not sure whether to wish you'll have children so you might understand what a horror it would be to lose them, or to feel glad you don't.
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The collaterals in O.C. deserved no more to be killed than the collaterals in Iraq, Afghanistan, Dresdon, and Hiroshima. Do you revile the American government for killing all those innocent people? Do you revile the American government for killing the innocent Americans in Waco? I can comprehend the horror of losing one's children. I would never put my children in daycare in the operations base of a hostile, militaristic aggressor force.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:00:20 PM EDT
So, what exactly does "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" mean to you then?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:04:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: What Blaze of Glory and the other proponents of such conspiracy theories never address is the question of exactly what does the government hope to gain by waging war on us(by blowing up it's own buildings!)? And with all the other reports of coverups, like Watergate, No Gun Ri, Mai Li, Iran Contra, etc, they never stay hidden for long. Why would something on that scale as OKC not get leaked as a setup with McVeigh as the fall guy? I hope to see some long essays from BOG tonight.
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I don't believe there was any government conspiracy. I think McVeigh and a few others wanted to retaliate for the attacks at Waco and Ruby Ridge; and they wanted to set an example to make the government think twice before burning more Americans.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:09:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:13:19 PM EDT
DSQuat. Read my answer again then, if you don't understand it.. And then read the gibberish response you posted! To clear up one issue for you, I no longer can make a distinction between the corporations actions, the Mob's actions, and the Governments actions. So I have written Government/Mob to make that point. They all work together to control the citizenry.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:17:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blaze-Of-Glory:
Originally Posted By DScott: ... What did those "collaterals" do to deserve to be killed? I'm not sure whether to wish you'll have children so you might understand what a horror it would be to lose them, or to feel glad you don't.
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The collaterals in O.C. deserved no more to be killed than the collaterals in Iraq, Afghanistan, Dresdon, and Hiroshima. Do you revile the American government for killing all those innocent people? Do you revile the American government for killing the innocent Americans in Waco? I can comprehend the horror of losing one's children. I would never put my children in daycare in the operations base of a hostile, militaristic aggressor force.
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No, the OKC deaths were not deserved at all, and were completely preventable, whereas true collateral damage in a real war is not. War is different. No I do not revile this government as you do. When is it OK to kill children to "protest" the killing of children? How are you any different then what you claim to be so opposed to. It's not a "operations base of a hostile, militaristic aggressor force" it is an OFFICE BUILDING. People go to work, they eat lunch, they put pictures of their family and friends on the walls of their cubicles, they get birthday cakes for each other and have office parties, they talk about the weekend little league games and nights out with friends. They worry about making their bills, they try and get ahead, they get hired, promoted, and fired. Real sinister stuff.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 7:57:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: To clear up one issue for you, I no longer can make a distinction between the corporations actions, the Mob's actions, and the Governments actions. So I have written Government/Mob to make that point.
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Thanks for the laugh!
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:06:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 8:08:33 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:18:31 PM EDT
So I guess the answer is...there is no answer. BLAZE do you put the same analogy to the events on sept. 11? Were those 5000+ people just collatoral damage for all the things that the government has done to the arabs (in truth or in fiction)????????????????????????
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:19:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 11:18:53 PM EDT by Blaze-Of-Glory]
Originally Posted By DScott: No, the OKC deaths were not deserved at all, and were completely preventable, whereas true collateral damage in a real war is not. War is different. No I do not revile this government as you do. When is it OK to kill children to "protest" the killing of children? How are you any different then what you claim to be so opposed to. It's not a "operations base of a hostile, militaristic aggressor force" it is an OFFICE BUILDING. People go to work, they eat lunch, they put pictures of their family and friends on the walls of their cubicles, they get birthday cakes for each other and have office parties, they talk about the weekend little league games and nights out with friends. They worry about making their bills, they try and get ahead, they get hired, promoted, and fired. Real sinister stuff.
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It was an office building [i]and[/i] an operations base of a hostile, militaristic aggressor force. Those people trying to pay their bills and get promoted accepted money to set a bunch of Americans, children included, on fire. Will you please explain to me what was so sinister about the innocent Afghan children who got bombed? What was so sinister about the [b]110,000[/b] civilians killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- 300 of whom were celebrating their birthdays the day they got nuked? How am I different from the government I resent? I don't strike first.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:23:52 PM EDT
Hey BLAZE I hear property in IRAQ is cheap right now.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:28:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/20/2002 8:32:31 PM EDT by Blaze-Of-Glory]
Well since you're the one who doesn't think the Constitution is worth fighting for, why don't you, the Constitution-trampling feds, and their innocent children, leave?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:30:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
Originally Posted By DScott: It's not a "operations base of a hostile, militaristic aggressor force" it is an OFFICE BUILDING. People go to work, they eat lunch, they put pictures of their family and friends on the walls of their cubicles, they get birthday cakes for each other and have office parties, they talk about the weekend little league games and nights out with friends. They worry about making their bills, they try and get ahead, they get hired, promoted, and fired.
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I agree that in this case it was a poor choice for a target primarly for the reasons you cited, but I think you are missing the point of the conversation. When one believes they are at war (which he supposedly did) then there is no bad target and you must make war in a way that shuts the other side down to hopefully win in the end.
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I do understand the point. I just think he's wrong, we are NOT "at war" with "the government".
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 8:33:52 PM EDT
I agree that McVeigh was no Patrick Henry. Henry wrote some fabulous oratory. McVeigh was a soldier, first for the American Government(where he was decorated) second for the Constitution. American Government of every facet will always remember that event and show restraint.
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