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Posted: 4/17/2002 2:21:52 PM EDT
Last week was the 16th anniversary of the fabled FBI-Miami Firefight in which an eight-man rolling stake-out squad was shot to pieces by one nightmare-ishly hard guy named Michael Platt. Had his partner-in-crime, William Matix, pulled his own freight in the furious 4½ minute engagement, the cost to the FBI would undoubtably been greater than two KIA and five WIA. There have been no less than three TV re-enactments of the 11 April 1986 firefight, none more inept than ABC's half-hour "FBI: The Untold Stories" in 1991, as well as a nicely-produced "in-house" FBI training video with interviews of three of the surviving SAs. A fanciful narrative about the event was also included in the middle of John Ross' epic [b]Unintended Consequences[/b], fictional elements of which… specifically the kinky sex scene between two SAs and a waitress in a South Dixie restaurant… have assumed the mantle of a verity. One volume, Dr. French Anderson's richly detailed [b]Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight[/b], which has done a great deal to set the record straight about what actually happened that day, actually caused the Dade County Medical Examiner to revise his official [i]post mortem[/i] report. I've long been a student of that seminal event, even since I caught a fascinating two-hour debriefing by Crime Scene Investigator, Sgt. David Rivers of Metro-Dade PD, in Fall 1987. Using that, plus Dr. Anderson's book and the FBI's own extensive files released under a FOIA request, [red][b]TGZ[/b][/red] has updated its pages, [b][url=http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/11april86.html]The Ultimate After Action Report![/url][/b] in observance of the anniversay of that violent encounter, and in an effort to correct a couple of unfortunate mis-apprehensions. • Dean, jus' visitin' from [b][url]http://www.TheGunZone.com[/url][/b]…
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 2:57:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 2:59:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 3:03:37 PM EDT by DamageInc]
I laugh every time I hear someone say that Mini-14’s suck. Platt’s Mini-14 didn’t suck that day. [url]http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm[/url]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 3:07:38 PM EDT
Excellent post, Dean. Thanks for the link.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 3:14:48 PM EDT
I don't know how anyone can say a mini sucks there have been a few shootouts where the mini does pretty good. one thing people don't like about the mini is its accuracy but hey it cannot shoot 1" groups at 100 yards big deal most of us if we ever were in a shootout wouldn't be out 100yds anyways we would be up close and personal.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 3:20:06 PM EDT
Mini-14 certainly was adequate in that role. Why the hell was the shotgun loaded with #6 shot though? Bank robbery teams should be armed like professional soldiers. Nearly identical equipment using the same ammo and magazines.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 3:22:51 PM EDT
... I liked your summary Dean. [size=2]
... there were three huge pairs of balls on Miami's Southwest 82nd Avenue... fortunately for the good guys, the biggest set belonged to Ed Mireles and with the aid of some solid hits from Gordon McNeill, Ron Risner and Jerry Dove, the good guys won, but at a terrible expense of life.
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[/size=2]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 3:37:54 PM EDT
How about the FBI agent who came out blasting with his (I think).38 wheel gun while leaving his 12gauge pump on the back seat. that doesn't really make sense too me.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 4:25:46 PM EDT
I am not a Mini-14 basher, as I have one and it works well. What amazes me is that more of them have been used in crimes, due to lower cost, than have AR15s, but yet it is not on the AW list because it looks like a normal rifle. The entire AW ban is based on LOOKS alone. What a joke.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 4:29:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG: I am not a Mini-14 basher, as I have one and it works well. What amazes me is that more of them have been used in crimes, due to lower cost, than have AR15s, but yet it is not on the AW list because it looks like a normal rifle. The entire AW ban is based on LOOKS alone. What a joke.
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An appropriate observation.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 4:32:31 PM EDT
LARRYG That is a good observation It does seem like the mini is involved in a few crimes. If you read the assualt weapon bans it is funny that a rifle is normal but if you put a pertruding pistol grip on it becomes more deadly????
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:03:25 PM EDT
Re the failure/refusal to include the mini in ban legislation, I have read that here in Kali, the legislators KNEW that ranchers/others owned and used the minis in great numbers. They feared a popular backlash if they tried to ban it, and knew news footage of a rancher holding up a wooden stocked rifle with a flush 5 round mag was going to be able to convince the public that the weapon had legitimate use. No such good PR seems possible with evil black rifles, which can be (falsely) described as military weapons. Wood saved the mini, nothing more.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:10:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87: Re the failure/refusal to include the mini in ban legislation, I have read that here in Kali, the legislators KNEW that ranchers/others owned and used the minis in great numbers. They feared a popular backlash if they tried to ban it, and knew news footage of a rancher holding up a wooden stocked rifle with a flush 5 round mag was going to be able to convince the public that the weapon had legitimate use. No such good PR seems possible with evil black rifles, which can be (falsely) described as military weapons. Wood saved the mini, nothing more.
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A perfect example of some gun owners being worse than antis. These farmers and ranchers should have been raising hell regardless of what kind of gun they have. Instead, as long as their guns aren't being banned, it's okay with them. They probably say, like I have actually been told by some hunters, 'my gun is okay, but you don't need that assault rifle' or 'that handgun'. They need to wake up, their guns are next.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:22:37 PM EDT
The Mini-14 requires something to be compared against before its deficencies become known. In this case you had a guy with a rifle against a bunch of guys with only handguns. That tells you nothing about how good the rifle was only that rifles are better than handguns.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 9:42:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911greg: How about the FBI agent who came out blasting with his (I think).38 wheel gun while leaving his 12gauge pump on the back seat. that doesn't really make sense too me.
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You’re probably referring to the FBI Supervisor Gordon McNeill. He came under fire as he stopped his vehicle and could not get to the shotgun. I attended a conference in the early 1990’s where he spoke. He remarked that if he had put his shotgun in the front seat where he could have gotten to it, he would have been able to end the gunfight then and there and no one would have even heard of it. He added that since the gunfight, not a day had gone by that he hadn’t thought about not being able to get to his shotgun and the resulting consequences. (Based on this occurrence, one of the recommendations made in the FBI produced video recreation and analysis of the event was to make sure your equipment is available.) McNeill also mentioned that he and several other agents had worked with one of the networks to make a TV recreation of the event. When he and the other agents saw how inaccurate the recreation was, they sued to try to stop it from being aired. My recollection, from another source, is that one FBI team member did have an M16. However, he had stopped at a gas station rest room, missed the initial radio traffic, and wasn’t present during the gunfight. I’ve often wondered how this gunfight would have finally ended if the bad guys had been wearing body armor.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 10:40:34 PM EDT
<<>>>> 199, I think there were two agents with full-auto M16's, and one was out at a gas station, and I think the other was too far away from where the shooting went down. There were several other FBI cars in on the stakeout that never made it to the gunfight that day. I don't know where the rifle was in the car though, if the agent wasn't able to get to it (ie in the trunk) it might not have made much of a difference. It baffles me to see depts. that require the long guns to be in the trunk, or otherwise not immediatly available. Defeats the purpose of having a long gun on patrol.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 10:59:58 PM EDT
16 years of whaling, teeth gnashing, psudoscience, the purchase and then disguarding of literally millions of dollars in weaponry later what do the regional FBI SWAT operators carry today? Springfield Armory built M1911 .45 Automatics. A only slightly improved version of the weapon Melvin Purvis carried 66 years ago-or exactly 50 years before the Miami shoot out. I understand they use the round formerly known as "Black Talon" now just the "Ranger SXT", 230gr at a slightly hot 900fps from a 5" barrel. The same load Winchester built for the Navy's Mk23 pistols. The FBI purchased there first batch of Springfield .45's in 1997. 11 years it took them to admit that the "monday morning quarterbacks" were, in fact CORRECT this time. Course they still wont let 'normal' agents carry them. Odd considering that for the first two decades or so of its existance the 1911 was the [i]de facto[/i] issue sidearm of the FBI.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 11:10:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 11:11:43 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]
Originally Posted By dpcop: <<>>>> 199, I think there were two agents with full-auto M16's, and one was out at a gas station, and I think the other was too far away from where the shooting went down. There were several other FBI cars in on the stakeout that never made it to the gunfight that day. I don't know where the rifle was in the car though, if the agent wasn't able to get to it (ie in the trunk) it might not have made much of a difference. It baffles me to see depts. that require the long guns to be in the trunk, or otherwise not immediatly available. Defeats the purpose of having a long gun on patrol.
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One of the things that put Scattergun Technologies on the map was when they got a order in 92 or therebouts for a couple thousand 12.5in barreled Remington 870's for the FBI. Cause Remington in all its wisdom decided at that moment it was not worthwhile to produce AOW's for law enforcement anymore. The FBI is full of these VERY short Remingtons as a direct result of 1986. They have made sure that agents do not have a excuse to leave the shotgun in the trunk or the backseat ever again. They also have some neat gunracks in their Crown Vics, built into the headliner. Part of their training now- for all agents- is bringing the car to a stop from 60mph while drawing the shotgun from the headliner into your lap, then bailing out and engaging a target. Looks very impressive on video tape. I also noticed, back during the Eric Robert Rudolf manhunt, that M4's are a very popular item now, although I think the standard "carbine" is still the wimpy little MP5SF semi-auto only 9mm.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 12:58:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2002 1:03:22 AM EDT by James4]
Hello! I think 9mm versus 45ACP debate is way down on the list of what to take from the Miami incident. I think the primary (without yet reading Dean's AAR) takeaway is that a surveilance team either needs to be trained and equipped to be an interdiction team or have an interdiction team at their disposal. Or choose to continue surveiling and not interdict. The FBI had an opportunity to choose the time an location of the take-down and whether to take-down. They chose to take-down and chose neither the time nor the place with much thought. Instead agents poorly trained and equipped and not trained and equipped for the job at hand tried to crash the party at earliest opportunity. That's my Monday morning armchair commando take on Miami. IMHO, ammo caliber is irrelevant in this incident. Interdiction was not the best choice and they were not the people to do it. They were chasing criminals known to be heavily armed and, IIRC, the FBI still had their vests in their trunks! How many felony stops had these guys done? Any? The FBI are the best at investigation and clearinghouse-type work but should leave the direct action to the locals. An LEO friend of mine had to take an FBI class to qualify for use of the Fort Ord ranges (now overseen by the FBI). He said the quality of the class was silly. At one point a SoCal PD trainer (and former SWAT guy) lit a point-shooting-advocating FBI instructor in a FOF scenario...14 rounds to 1 leg hit. Apologies to the FBI folks out there but Miami was not an ammo failure, it was a policy, procedural, training, and "Rambo" failure. Leave the direct action to the locals. A Vietnam Vet friend of mine tells me the more embarrassing the f#$kup the better the medals awarded. Directing attention to ammunition seems to be a clear design to shift attention away from multiple decision mistakes. Not to dance on the graves of those agents who passed on during the incident but make their deaths meaningful...something other than ammo! By the way, it is my understanding that the national FBI HRT team is equipped differently that regional FBI HRT teams (made up of regular agents). Different brand of 1911 (which is why 2 companies claim the contract). I believe regional teams are still issued 10mm MP5s. Ten-millimeter makes an excellent subgun cartridge. Rank and file still get 870s and Glock 40S&W. P.S. How come the FBI tests ask for a minimum of 12 inches and the ammunition manufacturers give us an average. Average means 50% above and 50% below. Shouldn't we be asking for 95% above 12 inches?
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 1:23:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By James4: ...Or choose to continue surveiling and not interdict. ... They were chasing criminals known to be heavily armed and, IIRC, the FBI still had their vests in their trunks! How many felony stops had these guys done? Any? ...
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James, while I agree with you to a certain extent, its important to remember that one of the reasons we do some of the things we do is because of this incident, specifically, and other incidents. Vests were not standard wear everywhere in '86, especially for plain-clothes officers. IMHO, this incident also accelerated the change-over to autos all over the country. We learned that you need to secure your eyewear, and carry an extra pair. There are other tactics lessons there also. The suspects they were going after were becoming increasingly violent, and had already killed. I also think that the suspects, when they realized they were being followed, were going to fight. Better to have a shoot-out on a relatively deserted street, or a hostage situation or something else on the highway? Whether the agents choice is the best one in retrospect or not, I think it was understandable given what they knew. That said, I tend to agree with you that the ammo issue is not what should have been the primary thing to take out of incident. Fortunately, many trainers and officers did learn from this incident. Personally, I think one of the best things to take is that no matter what the situation, (thinking of SA Mireles) you can keep fighting and win. just what i get from it dp
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 6:31:25 PM EDT
Originally posted By [b]DamageInc[/b]:
I laugh every time I hear someone say that Mini-14’s suck. Platt’s Mini-14 didn’t suck that day.
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So then you buy into the anti-gunners' argument that the guns does it by itself?!? It's the shooter, stupid! [b]ArmdLbrl[/b], too!
That tells you nothing about how good the rifle was only that rifles are better than handguns.
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I demur… it demonstrates only that a highly motivated, well-trained and well-practiced individual can do a helluva lotta damage even against a superior force of numbers. Thanks, [b]Winston[/b], and I like your cognomen.
How about the FBI agent who came out blasting with his (I think).38 wheel gun while leaving his 12gauge pump on the back seat. that doesn't really make sense too me.
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How 'bout the SAs who started the gunfight without even a gun?!?
I think there were two agents with full-auto M16's…
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No, [b]dpcop[/b], just one, and it was in the front seat with him. Another SA had an MP5-SD in his back seat.
There were several other FBI cars in on the stakeout that never made it to the gunfight that day.
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Five other fleet vehicles with six SAs in the C1 Squad who didn't get into action that day. • Dean, jus' visitin' from [b][url]http://www.TheGunZone.com[/url][/b]…
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