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Posted: 4/17/2002 11:40:18 AM EDT
Is it just me, or is the press way off base {again} on this by saying Powell "failed" in trying to bring about peace between Israel and the Palestinians. If you had a marriage counselor who told a couple who had been having problems for twenty five years, that one had to stop their incessant gambling, and the other had to stop cheating, but neither one did, would it be considered that the counselor failed?
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 11:44:01 AM EDT
I'm not sure we WANTED him to succeed.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 11:44:01 AM EDT
The media fails America every single day.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 11:58:23 AM EDT
IIRC, criteria for PASS: 1. broker a cease-fire 2. ensure Israeli pull-out of occupied areas per POTUS grade for this task: FAIL
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 12:10:57 PM EDT
it's unrealistic to require that anyone impose peace on the region. if that was his assignment, it was worth a try, but he was destined to fail. i'm sure he knew that when he went. much as i dislike violence, i suspect many more people will die before there's any real chance of peace.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 12:14:17 PM EDT
It depends on how you define success. The most lasting peace may come by letting Isreal have at 'em for a while. One never knows exactly what Powell's goal was--whether to try to bring an immediate end to hostilities or to feign the role of peacemaker while secretly giving Isreal the green light to clean out the West Bank. Who knows? 357mag
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 12:15:42 PM EDT
Any plan that was based on the assumption that Israel was equilly at fault with the Palistinians was doomed to failure. Conversly, Arafat is a dead man if he accepts anything less than a total Israeli surrender. Untill Hamas and Islamic Jihad are removed from the equation forget it. Course I am not convinced that Arafat doesnt use Hamas and IJ as a convinent excuse, I think he likes what they do, they are just behaving as he did in the old days. Now that he is head of the PA he has to restrain his own efforts in order to keep the US food aid flowing...
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 12:16:59 PM EDT
I really wouldnt consider his "mission" a "failure". I mean the isreali/palestinian conflict has been going on for like 10 years or so hasnt it? It will take alot in my opinion to resolve thier conflict IF thats even possible. Of corse i am a BIG powell supporter anyway so my opinion is obviously showing favoritism. Colin Powell=DA MAN!!
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 12:18:00 PM EDT
1) The conventional wisdom is that the war on Iraq cannot begin until things are settled in Israel/West Bank. 2) It will NEVER be settled. 3) This is not news, to anyone. 4) What if it is discovered that Iraq is helping the PLO, in an attempt to keep things chaotic, in order to delay our attack?
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 12:18:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter: I'm not sure we WANTED him to succeed.
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i am _VERY SURE_ that "we" _DIDN'T WANT_ him to succeed.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 12:50:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Scott_Jimenez:
Originally Posted By RikWriter: I'm not sure we WANTED him to succeed.
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i am _VERY SURE_ that "we" _DIDN'T WANT_ him to succeed.
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When I said "we" I meant the United States. I think Bush had to send him for appearance's sake, but I think he would rather see Israel root out Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the gang before withdrawing.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 1:01:54 PM EDT
We need to figure out how to attack Iraq from Turkey only. And screw the Arab states.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 1:14:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 1:20:26 PM EDT by Scott_Jimenez]
Originally Posted By RikWriter: When I said "we" I meant the United States. I think Bush had to send him for appearance's sake, but I think he would rather see Israel root out Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the gang before withdrawing.
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ahh. when i said "we," i meant the current administration. i agree that the trip was largely a political show. i don't think things are quite working out the way the administration wants them, on a global scale. i also don't think that "rooting out" extremist faith-based groups is a realistic goal. you can't kill the ideology.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 2:37:28 PM EDT
They won't stop killing each other until no one is left. Not likely to stop soon. Nobody will succeed at stopping this but I don't happen to think that Powell is cut out for Sec of State. He should've picked a different post.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 3:58:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Scott_Jimenez: i also don't think that "rooting out" extremist faith-based groups is a realistic goal. you can't kill the ideology.
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Sure you can, you just have to kill a LOT of them.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 4:17:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Scott_Jimenez: i also don't think that "rooting out" extremist faith-based groups is a realistic goal. you can't kill the ideology.
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Hold to that correct thought.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 4:48:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 4:51:02 PM EDT by Scott_Jimenez]
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Sure you can, you just have to kill a LOT of them.
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yes, hence not a realistic goal unless extermination is an acceptable end. it will not progress that far, even though Sharon has most likely thought it through many, many times. we are already seeing the rumblings of the next World War. and, as per usual, we will be late to the party yet again.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 4:59:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2002 5:05:30 PM EDT by DaMan]
There is no doubt that Powell's efforts to break the impasse between Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat were unsuccessful. But that does not necessarily mean his trip was a failure. The situation in Israel was a secondary priority. Powell's main mission was to gain cooperation from the region's Arab states to keep the conflict contained so it didn't break into a regional or World War like the Israelis wanted. On that score, Powell seems to have succeeded. DaMan
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:08:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:19:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:36:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: Interesting. What is your source of information for this assertion? How do you know what the Israelis "Wanted"? Please be specific, listing sources.
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How do I know that the Israelis wanted to widen this into a regional or World War??!! I read their open source publications and heard what their "cheerleaders" were chanting and wanted! I also watched the situation on the ground. I noted how the Syrians were moving their troops back into the Bakaa and Lebanese government forces moved up. This made an invasion of Lebanon and attack on Syrian troops by Israel more politically difficult. Israel would surely have gone into the Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon and the Gaza if they hadn't been reigned in! Israel could still throw some more tantrums. The BIG PICTURE IS IRAQ! So far, the USA has been able to keep out of the neighborhood feud! Eric's probably in mourning! DaMan
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:44:18 PM EDT
I have zero use for "Colon" Powell! The more humiliation that can be piled on him the happier I am.We have him to thank for undermining Schwartkopf (pardon the spelling Norm!!). "Colon" blew it in the Gulf war and I have a long memory. So, thebeekeeper1, I must disagree with your opinion of "Colon" as a soldier. Any peace that does not include Arafathead dead or tried and hanged will fail. Less than a surrender by the idiots of the PA will just assure further cowardly acts of terror. The sooner the all out Mideast war starts, the sooner we can solve this problem. I just hope the administration can find the balls to fight it with an adequate level of violence for an all out victory; nothing less.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:46:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:52:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MickeyMouse Any peace that does not include Arafathead dead or tried and hanged will fail. Less than a surrender by the idiots of the PA will just assure further cowardly acts of terror. The sooner the all out Mideast war starts, the sooner we can solve this problem. I just hope the administration can find the balls to fight it with an adequate level of violence for an all out victory; nothing less.
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Should an all-out war break out in the middle east you can kiss the United States economy goodbye. That includes the economies of Japan and Europe as well. The winners of your nightmare scenario would likely be China and Russia.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:57:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf: Thanks, DaMan. I must admit, though, that your "sources" leave a little bit to be desired on the credibility scale. I'm still a little hazy on how you "know" that the Israelis would "surely" have invaded other areas, given their druthers.
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Oh, well! Guess you'll have to come up with your OWN sources! [:P] DaMan
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:03:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:07:22 PM EDT
Hell, raf! I gave you 95% of what you wanted! [:P] DaMan
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:13:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:23:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:30:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By DaMan: Hell, raf! I gave you 95% of what you wanted! [:P] DaMan
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Actually, you named no sources at all, not even the psychics. So you gave me 0%, not 95%.
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raf, would you accept 88% as a down payment and let me pay the other 7% in installments ??
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 10:24:42 PM EDT
Who was it that said that Diplomacy is the Art of Stalling your Foe until you find a larger stick. Ben
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 12:15:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Benjamin0001: Who was it that said that Diplomacy is the Art of Stalling your Foe until you find a larger stick. Ben
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I think the quote is: "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggy' while you reach for a stick." Don't recall who said it though.
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