[url]http://www.msnbc.com/news/739760.asp[/url]

WASHINGTON, April 17 —  The Bush administration has concluded that Osama bin Laden was present during the battle for Tora Bora late last year and that failure to commit U.S. ground troops to hunt him was its gravest error in the war against al Qaeda, according to civilian and military officials with first-hand knowledge.

This is left-wing propaganda that we will be seeing more and more of as the election approaches. Typical washington post BS! The left wing scum are desparate to regain power over the world and resume destroying USA. They need Bush and Company failures to accomplish this.

Oliver North is a better source talking about the recently released bin laden tape:
"I talked to a number of people after I saw this thing today, some of whom are in-country," North told Fox News Channel's "Hannity & Colmes."

"They are convinced that Osama bin Laden is dead," the former Marine lieutenant colonel insisted.

Text available at:  [url]http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2002/4/16/222757[/url]

Oh please, NewsMax isn't biased at all is it?  Osama dead?  My ass.  If he was we would know by now & it would be trumpeted all over - especially in an election year.  His death would have generated so much traffic, of all kinds, that SOMETHING would have come up.  I guess Drudge, MSNBC, Fox, & the rest picking this up are wrong too huh?

Goad, you know what, I'm wrong - you're right.  You're right, Oliver North doesn't lie.  He knows more than the sources reported here do. Gen. Franks makes no mistakes.  Our military has made no mistakes.  Our Afghan "allies" did a great job of sealing that mountain up.  We were right not to commit our troops & let the Afghans do our dirty work.  Our Afghan allies would never take bribes to let Osama & his boys get away.  Yup.  All propaganda in that article.  You're right.

Sheeesh man, wake up.

Personally, I hope that Osama doesn't show up dead (at least not anytime soon).  Otherwise, you'll hear the peaceniks claim that we got the guys we wanted and we need to bring the troops home.  Nope - let him sit freezing in his cave while we dismantle his organization piece-by-piece in front of his eyes.  Then, when he is nothing but a powerless figurehead, some 5th tier bodyguard can turn him in and collect on the 25 million.

Knock, knock,
Who's there?
Navy Seal - can Osama come out and play?

BTW, Here's a couple of North's idiotic ramblings that can easily be refuted.  From:
http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2002/4/16/222757

"• The terror kingpin has not been heard from since December. Previous to the 9/11 attacks, the al Qaeda chief was on Al Jazeera almost weekly, North said."

-How the hell does this prove he's dead?  He's not so stupid as to send in weekly tapes now, giving us clues.  He's probably on the move.  Also, if he is sick, I doubt he wants his supporters seeing him look like ass.  Sick does not = dead.

"• The tape shows lush vegetation behind bin Laden, which would be completely out of season if the tape was shot within the last six months. "There's nowhere in Afghanistan, right now, today, you can find that kind of vegetation, because it's barely springtime," the former military man argued."

-Uhhh, maybe b/c he's NOT IN Afghanistan?  Most reports say he's prob. in Pakistan in the border region, not up in the mountains again.  I forgot, Ollie is a botanist though, he can see a partial shot of an unknown area, & all of a sudden know what grows there, & when.  What of he is in some N. Paki valley, not in f-ing Antarctica Ollie?

Ollie, stick to hosting your nice "War Stories" show & please STFU when it comes to covering the asses of those who make mistakes.  I know you've built your entire career & cult of personality on the art of covering other's asses, but why don't you let Tommy Franks answer for this on his own OK?  

My rule is never respond to a rebuttal like yours, but I make an exception.

If you read the short Newsmax item you would have found it is a synopsis and several quotes of the North appearance on "Hannity & Colmes."

As for "Drudge, MSNBC, Fox, & the rest" this is the left wing propaganda machine you are listing! If you don't recognize that fact then you belong at the democratic underground forum and I need to find a group that understands that the US popular press is left wing propaganda intermixed with the literary equivalent of Rap.

You are a troll. You have no friends here. Go away!

LMFAO!  First of all, if you think Matt Drudge is part of the "left wing propaganda machine"  I have a nice tin foil hat I'll sell you.  I really can't believe you made that statement.  I guess Newsmax & Pat Robertson must be the only news sources that you consider kosher.

Also, I didn't know that taking the words of Oliver North as gospel made me unwelcome here.  Last I check, there wasn't a sign at the front door that said "If you don't agree w/ a certain mindset you must go."  Sadly, you are just as much of a blindly political lunatic as those nuts at the Dem. Underground.  You just play for the other team.  You obviously don't have the ability to critique the statements of Republicans do you?   You just follow them, eyes glazed over, drooling, unthinking.  You're probably one of those people who think the Democrats are the only ones who work to take our firearms away.

Anyway, if not believing every word that comes out of Tommy Franks' or Oliver North's mouth makes me a troll, then a troll I will proudly be!  

Drudge = Left wing, LMFAO!!!!

Goad.  As in "to goad."  Bravo, Mr. Goad.  Bravo.  You have goaded me into respinding to your inanity! I should have known better than to believe that you really though Matt Drudge was a leftist, or that Oliver North was a reliable source!  Your post was really an intricate piece of sarcastic art.  I congratulate you.

Goad: "I need to find a group that understands that the US popular press is left wing propaganda intermixed with the literary equivalent of Rap."

Goad, I think most anyone here, including myself, will agree that the mainstream press tilts noticeably to the left.  However, generally, if you are looking for a group that will "understand" you, I'm sure the guys at Assault web would love to have you!

I don't use the word kosher often, but never to describe news items.

The sign is there.

Drudge links are decidedly left-wing biased in ratio to non left-wing propaganda and in regard to the typical popular culture stories they link to. A current link is to Rosie's career changes... this Rosie link has no redeeming social or hard news value, yet Drudge had it up for a couple of days. He linked to a story indicating that President Bush's phenomenal ratings simply can't last much longer - offering hope to the left-wing... Drudge has left-wing propaganda? YES, no question.

Oliver North = DA MAN!!!

1st of all, you should listen to his radio how.  He RAILS on about Rosie -  not a fan trust me.  Did it occur to you that he might put the links up b/c she is such a lightning rod when it comes to certain issues?  Maybe he posts it b/c other conservatives like to see & laugh about what he dumb ass is up to.  

Are you saying Drudge should just link to stories that are favorable to or uncritical of Republicans?  Ummm, that's not journalism.  THAT'S propaganda.  Again, you show an inability to critically process thought outside of your sheltered & narrow mind.

Also, you might want to tell the Avila's about that "sign" & show it to me while you're at it.  I guess when I started out here 300 posts ago, they forgot to tell me about it.  I didn't know we had to line up, hand's out high & straight, behind your political philosophy to be able to post.  Nice of you to try & hijack this board for yourself & the rest of Falwell's & Robertson's Fan Club, but no dice.  

You made reference to me as "blindly political lunatic" and I would call that a personal attack and last I checked that was a prohibited behavior. You indicated you believed that I needed a tin foil hat. I would call that personal in nature, and prohibited.

I have no connection with "Falwell's & Robertson's Fan Club", and have no concern as to any relation you might develop with them in the future.

As for hijacking this forum... This is a metaphor I don't get. I suggest that you are a troll and your post was counterproductive.

Okay - don't make us split you two up. [argue]

Just add [ url ] before and [ /url ] after with no spaces to make a link active.

You may rub me the wrong way but you're entitled to your opinions (as well as who you believe).

I don't know if Osama is dead or alive.  Niether does anyone here.  I'm pretty sure Mr. North doesn't know any better.  As far as blaming military or political planning for Osama getting away during one battle... well, hindsight is always like that.  It's always easy to place blame after the fact.

Thank goodness someone remembers we're at war ourselves.

If anyone takes any news as the total truth, they are mistaken. Every news agency in the world has an agenda, including Oliver North, MSNBC, drudge, Washington post. Take the info for what it is worth, then decide.

Now everyone accuse me of being a Troll.[rolleyes]

It is a conspiracy.[shock]

Every news agency but Oliver North is out to lie to us.[:O]

Who should I trust now? [:\]

I know the government they would not lie to me![puke]

Oliver North would not lie to me! [puke]

No one lies to me!  [whacko]

Another 2 A.M. rambling brought to you by the makers of Pepsi. [:D]

Thx for the HTML tip Stealth.  I wasn;t posting that link to piss people off.  I mean, it's a freaking news story - take it for what it's worth, ya know?  I especially didn't mean to help further "the vast left-wing media's conspiracy" to ummm, well, do whatever it is they are doing.  

If anything I thought the article showed that we still haven't learned our lesson that we can't have others do our dirty work & expect results.  To do so makes us, ummm Japanese.  We can't just bankroll the killing away to further our interests.  It takes American sweat, American blood to win, & until we learn to bring OUR full resources to bear we will not win.

That's not propaganda.  The military makes mistakes all the time.  Pointing them out only makes the military stronger.  Provided it learns from its errors.  As for North, he has a cool show on Fox, & he is an interesting political figure of arguable character, but he is about as fit to pronounce Osama dead as my dry cleaner.  

Neither of these replies are refutatuions, merely differing opinions.

i think osama is dead, a rotting corpse buried in a collapsed cave. the result would be that there are no witnesses and no body to show. this may be a good thing, as he's not an official martyr yet. i truly doubt osama, if alive, could resist the urge to tweak us by appearing on tv and saying "ha, ha, missed me!"

i would like to add that it seemed (to me) like sloppy planning to bomb afghanistan before even attempting to seal the borders. if we had wanted him to escape into pakistan i could think of no better way to encourage him to comply.    

[url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020417/ap_wo_en_ge/mideast_bin_laden_tape_12&printer=1[/url]

Second bin Laden tape delivered to Arabic satellite station


Maybe he heard Goad & Ollie...

Here's some more "leftist media conspiracy" outlets picking it up:  

WorldNetDaily (A real bastion of Marxism)

[url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27270[/url]

Debka

[url]http://www.debka.com[/url]

I thought from teh BEGINNING that we should have done everything exactly the say we did it - EXCEPT for the fact that we should have sent in MASSIVE ground troops, and sealed the border to Pakistan.

let the Afghan freedom fighters drive Usama's ragheads into the border, and the exterminate them from the face of the earth.

Gman, the Afghan "freedom fighters" are exactly what the problem is.  They take bribes & switch sides in a heartbeat.  They have no loyalty to us & have literally sold us out dozens of times.  It should have been the 10th Mountain Div. driving them out, w/ more of our own troops sealing the border from the Afghan side.  We CANNOT let other do OUR dirty work.  

WTF is the point of having our military then?
I'm not talking about throwing our men into a meat grinder for the hell of it, but shit, they are soldiers, it's their job.  What would have happened if when we landed in Normandy we sat back shelling the coast & used only French & other European resistance fighters to actually hit the beach?  We would have lost, that's what would have happened?  What if instead of US Marines hitting those Pacific islands, we used native islanders to try & take them back?  The Japanese would still have those islands today.

It used to be done differently. Now b/c we don't want to expose the average cattle like American citizen to the realities of war & the world we live in; and b/c politicians live by the Gallup poll, not by their character, we will do things piecemeal...

Ummm, BTW, "our" "Afghan freedom fighters" also wear rags on their heads.  Yarmulkes could also be considered rags.  So could the Pope's funky hat...

I don't know if Osama is dead or alive, but I do know that many times the only way to get something done correctly is to do it yourself.

I believe we waited too long to get our troops in there and even then, I do not believe we had adequate numbers to get the job done.

However, I do not know if the delay in getting our guys over there was the result of Bush's indecision. It very likely could have been the result of waiting to solidify our alignment with Pakistan before making any major moves.

But I think once we got the airbase, there should be nothing stopping us, at least logistically.

At this point, I think we need to get a larger force in there.

I guess my main point was that we should have sealed the border.

On the "Afghan freedom fighter" issue, or on ANY foreign soil, I prefer to have foreign nationals kill foreign enemies.

Granted, its a tricky balance of when to go in and do the job yourself, but ragheads shooting ragheads just kinda makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. ESPECIALLY if the "Afghan freedom fighters" are of as doubtful loyalty as you indicate.