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Posted: 4/16/2002 9:40:58 AM EDT
[url=http://www.geocities.com/hlindner1/Writings/middleeast.htm]"The Ninth Crusade"[/url] Why Arabs hate Israel and America, why Americans support ethnic cleansing in Palestine, and how to end the American-Israeli conflict with the Arab world. A message for all who care for the truth Henry H. Lindner, MD An interesting read.
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 10:18:17 AM EDT
No bites? SteyrAug? ETH? Garandman? 5subslr5? They must be sleeping.
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 10:30:00 AM EDT
Interesting. The author seems to think that South Africa is a good model for change, an idea which I find questionable.
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 11:28:25 AM EDT
Yeah, I thought that was interesting too. However, IMO South Africa's problems with violence are not due to the end of apartheid, but are due to the fact that Nelson Mandela was a horrible president who did nothing to address the mounting safety issues in that country. Anyway, that's a whole other topic...
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 12:16:42 PM EDT
To take the position that the problems at the end of WWI were the fault of the United States is dim witted. It was clearly the colonial expansionist ideas of France and England. Most of it seems like a racist rant under the guise of not being racist.
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 12:25:09 PM EDT
. Israel wants land, not peace. In fact, Israel has never withdrawn from any land it conquered until forced to do so by violent opposition. Where Israel has been forced to withdraw, as with the Sinai and Lebanon, it has been rewarded with peace with those countries. It is obvious to all objective observers that Israel can achieve peace and security now only by withdrawing from all the territories it occupied in 1967. Israel should jump at the opportunity to obtain legitimacy in this way; for as long as the occupation continues, it remains a criminal state in a state of war with its neighbors.
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This author accuses the US media of glossing over facts. How big a glossing over is the above statement? Does a peace treaty constitute violent opposition?
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 12:32:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Magic: This author accuses the US media of glossing over facts. How big a glossing over is the above statement? Does a peace treaty constitute violent opposition?
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I'm not sure what you're getting at about the peace treaty. Can you elaborate a bit? I think his point there is that it's hard to negotiate when you are violently occupying someone else's territory.
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 12:37:06 PM EDT
look at the first statement.
Israel has never withdrawn from any land it conquered until forced to do so by violent opposition.
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Aren't the pease treaties that Israel abides by direct contradictory evidence to this? I don't know about you, but I consider violent opposition to be warfare.
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 12:49:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Magic: look at the first statement.
Israel has never withdrawn from any land it conquered until forced to do so by violent opposition.
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Aren't the pease treaties that Israel abides by direct contradictory evidence to this? I don't know about you, but I consider violent opposition to be warfare.
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What peace treaties does Israel abide by? Yes, violent opposition is warfare IMO. If you are refering to the South Lebanon occupation, I have two things to say about that. 1. That was a resolution from 1978. When they [i]finally[/i] pull out of South Lebanon, they want a cookie for doing something they should have done over 20 years earlier. The only reason Israel pulled out of South Lebanon is because they were tired of getting their asses handed to them every night by Hizbollah geurillas. 2. The end of the occupation of South Lebanon happened during Ehud Barak's time. Barak was the only Israeli leader who tried to make peace. What happened? They get rid of Barak.
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 1:28:41 PM EDT
Maybe Israel did this because they were tired of getting kicked. How do you explain the Sinai then?
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:11:56 AM EDT
What about the Sinai? They invaded, occupied, then got pushed out.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:24:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chimborazo: What about the Sinai? They invaded, occupied, then got pushed out.
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When was Israel "pushed out" of the Sinai? In 1973, Egypt only captured a small sliver of territory and they weren't doing very well at the war's end.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:42:09 AM EDT
Post from Chiraboza -
What about the Sinai? They invaded, occupied, then got pushed out.
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'Got pushed out'? That'll be the day! What comes to my mind is in October, 1973, when the IDF crossed over the Suez Canal and had the Egyptian Third Army surrounded and was just about to annihilate it when, the Soviet Union told the United States that it would become involved if the Israelis did so! Just imagine, no army between the IDF and Cairo! Nothing between the Jews and the Pyramids! Heh-heh-heh! I heard there was much confusion and disarray in Cairo in those few days. It gladdened my heart immensely. But then, so did Israel's previous victories in the Sinai. And in the Golan Heights. And on the West Bank. And everywhere it put its foot. Sounds like they may have had a bigger ally than even the United States! Eric The(YouKnow,TheBigGuy!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:48:19 AM EDT
My informed opinions on this conflict will shock you, and you'll be tempted to dismiss me as anti-Semitic racist
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Well, you got the second part right... [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/biggrin2.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:57:34 AM EDT
ETH - Who the hell is Chiraboza? [:D] Anyway, platform389, why is this guy racist? Because he does not think the Israelis are right? I think what he is saying is less racist than what ETH has implied in his post. I read the post as "I am all for Israel taking over everything they can and ridding us of these damn dirty Arabs/Muslims. Ethnic cleansing is fun". I'm not saying that ETH is a racist, but I think that most of his posts read more racist than what Lindner wrote.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:59:13 AM EDT
One more thing...you call him racist but nobody is disputing his points. Why is he racist?
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:19:31 AM EDT
A more neutral and more correct view. That's why it won't sell on this board nor to the people of America. Chimborazo, good find and thanks for the post.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:22:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chimborazo: Why is he racist?
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He must be a racists as his view is not completely pro Israeli and not completely anti Palestinian. He's got to be a racist doesn't he.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:34:27 AM EDT
Can someone objectively explain why it always seems to end up with the US and Israel up against the rest of the world? I have tried to look at this from other points of view and understand it logically from both sides, but it evades me.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:49:13 AM EDT
Post from Chimborazo - (sorry, about the earlier misspelling)
I think what he is saying is less racist than what ETH has implied in his post. I read the post as "I am all for Israel taking over everything they can and ridding us of these damn dirty Arabs/Muslims. Ethnic cleansing is fun".
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It's hard for me to ever use 'racism' and 'anti-semitism' when referring to any differences between Israelis and Arabs. They are [u]both[/u] Semitic peoples. Of the same 'race.' Supposed descendants of Shem, one of Noah's sons. So, I cannot be 'racist' or 'anti-Semitic' in [u]anything[/u] I say concerning these two groups. But I do have a tendency to remember my enemies, and the Arabs became fast friends and allies with the Soviet Union during the Cold War for one reason, and one reason only - to destroy Israel! Once and for all. Communism held no allure for these Muslims, but the simple desire to kill every Jewish man, woman, and child in the Holy Land made them forget about their own religion when it came to the issue of the Jews! Not much different from Christian nations' view and treatment of the Jews, by the way, so none of us should glory in this common sin! Do you dispute that part of the history of the Middle East?
I'm not saying that ETH is a racist, but I think that most of his posts read more racist than what Lindner wrote.
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I'm simply not racist! They are the same race. I have Israeli friends, I have Palestinian friends. [b]I cannot tell them apart![/b] I have no earthly idea what makes one look like an Israeli and one not! I cannot imagine that they can easily tell themselves apart! Witness the large number of times that the Palestinian terrorists have mistakenly killed other Palestinians, and the number of times that 'suicide bombers' walk into the heart of a heavily-patrolled Jerusalem undetected! Eric The(TheyNeedNameTagsOverThere!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:03:11 AM EDT
I think that Lindner's feelings would be hurt if he knew that someone considered him a racist. "I take the largest possible view of human social evolution and morality. I do not blame individuals for their actions, nor do I favor one group of persons over another. I seek to expose the false and pernicious ideas that produce violence and suffering, I do not hate or blame the victims whose brains they infect—no matter how evil their actions. I oppose all racism, religionism, culturism, and nationalism." Of course, he feels that Americans as a group are violent, racist, and delusional... [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:08:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chimborazo: A message for all who care for the truth Henry H. Lindner, MD An interesting read.
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Once again, misinformed opinion labeled as "the truth".
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:13:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chimborazo: Anyway, platform389, why is this guy racist? Because he does not think the Israelis are right? I think what he is saying is less racist than what ETH has implied in his post. I read the post as "I am all for Israel taking over everything they can and ridding us of these damn dirty Arabs/Muslims. Ethnic cleansing is fun".
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If you subscribe to the Biblical "Promised Land" description of this area, Israel was instructed to "drive out" all the residents of this area.
Joshua 1:3 "I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses.
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Exodus 34:12, "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you."
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Now Israel has disobeyed God in virtually all the commands he gave and the problems they are experiencing are a result of that. But the Bible says we should pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
Psalm 122:6 "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May those who love you be secure. May there be peace within your walls and security within your citadels."
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Now, worldly pronouncements like Dr Lindner's will not stand in the face of God's word, not matter what is said. You may not like what is said, but that doesn't change it.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:23:01 AM EDT
Here is what I consider Lindner's best material: "Do you know the odds of a non-Jew immigrating to Israel? Try Zero. In fact, the state of Israel has a law specifying that the non-Jewish population of Israel must never by more than a certain percentage! Arab citizens of Israel can vote, but they do not have full citizenship rights. Take a look at the gross double standard that exists for Jews vs. non-Jews in Israel! Non-Jews are not allowed to buy any property from Jews—as this would return "redeemed" land back to the goyim. Seventy thousand non-Jews live in 100 villages within Israel but not recognized by the Israeli state. They pay taxes but get no services, and all building is illegal. Non-Jews are not even allowed to live in many areas of Israel. Non-Jews are segregated for schooling, in schools with far inferior funding. Non-Jews have to adhere to a great number of Jewish religious laws. Non-Jews must all carry cards specifying their religion and ethnic origin. Everywhere you look in Israeli law and society you find this double standard." Of course, Lindner doesn't compare the rights of Arabs in Israel with the rights of Jews in, say, Saudi Arabia or Syria, or even with the rights of Arabs themselves in those countries. And yet he imagines that "The end of the 55-year Crusade would permit the gradual democratization and liberalization of all governments in the area."
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:28:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from Chimborazo - (sorry, about the earlier misspelling)
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I thought it was funny...sounded like the name of a sausage or something.
It's hard for me to ever use 'racism' and 'anti-semitism' when referring to any differences between Israelis and Arabs. They are [u]both[/u] Semitic peoples. Of the same 'race.' Supposed descendants of Shem, one of Noah's sons. So, I cannot be 'racist' or 'anti-Semitic' in [u]anything[/u] I say concerning these two groups.
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Yes, true. Racist is definitely the wrong word. Prejudiced is probably better.
But I do have a tendency to remember my enemies, and the Arabs became fast friends and allies with the Soviet Union during the Cold War for one reason, and one reason only - to destroy Israel! Once and for all. Communism held no allure for these Muslims, but the simple desire to kill every Jewish man, woman, and child in the Holy Land made them forget about their own religion when it came to the issue of the Jews!
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I have a different and perhaps inaccurate understanding of this. I thought the Soviets did not really make threats until the Israelis began invading and occupying territory. If that was the case, then I understand why the Arabs would side with them. I think that pretty much scared the shit out of the French and British and got Egypt the canal back.
I'm simply not racist! They are the same race. Eric The(TheyNeedNameTagsOverThere!)Hun[>]:)]
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Again, I do not think that [i]you[/i] are racist. I was attempting to make the point that no matter how eloquently and objectively one looks at the situation, he is called a racist if he does not agree with Israel. So my point was, Lindner is no more or less racist than you are.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:34:23 AM EDT
I was attempting to make the point that no matter how eloquently and objectively one looks at the situation, he is called a racist if he does not agree with Israel. So my point was, Lindner is no more or less racist than you are.
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Of course, Lindner feels quite free to call all those who [b]do[/b] agree with Israel racists. He even compares the Israelis to Nazis and the West Bank to a concentration camp.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 7:47:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By platform389: If you subscribe to the Biblical "Promised Land" description of this area, Israel was instructed to "drive out" all the residents of this area.
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I do not.
Now Israel has disobeyed God in virtually all the commands he gave and the problems they are experiencing are a result of that. But the Bible says we should pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
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The problems they are experiencing are due to the fact that they bulldoze people's homes down and treat any non-jew as second class citizens. Is that what God said to do? Did God say to treat people worse than animals and expel them from their homes? Not my God.
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