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Posted: 4/15/2002 5:33:46 AM EDT
Go out to the Home Page and read this article in the current news. Not only are the officials biased but look for the little subtleties in the way it is printed and reported. A few I found.
But it's that "spare tire" that bothers prosecutors, some law enforcement officers and handgun control advocates, who fear a rise in gun-related violence. So far, there hasn't been an increase in gun-related crime statistics, but officials are still taking a wait-and-see posture. "At this point, we can't determine if there's any correlation between the two," said Oakland County Sheriff's Capt. Mike McCabe. "We're not revoking more CCWs as a result of violations of the permit. It's a little too early in the ballgame to make a real judgment. I think it's gonna take a couple of years before the jury will be in on this one."
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In other words, DAMN! No evidence to add further bans or restrictions.
McCabe cautions that residents essentially are held to the same standard as police officers if they use deadly force.
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I don't think so. Let some citizen CCW holder make a "good shoot" on an inocent person, like the poor fellow who was shot in the face by the FBI while riding home from the mall with his girl friend.
"You can only use deadly force if your life is in danger," McCabe said. "If you end up shooting someone, you'll be investigated and it will be turned over for review. Each case is unique and judged on its individual merits." Marj Jackson Levin of Michigan Citizens for Handgun Control in Birmingham also agrees it's too early for any meaningful statistics to be available. But she points to similar laws on the books in Texas and Florida and studies of statistics in those states that show a rise in handgun-related violence with changes in concealed weapons laws.
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I thought there was a pronounced DROP in violent crime in Florida after they passed the shall issue laws.
From October 1987 to July 1995, 469 people were identified as committing crimes after having been licensed to carry concealed weapons in Florida. And in Texas from January 1997 to January 1998, concealed weapons holders were arrested for 946 crimes, including 263 felony arrests.
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....but over all did violent crime drop?
A study by the New England Journal of Medicine found that the presence of a gun in the house makes it three times more likely that someone will be killed by a family member or domestic partner. "The most shocking misconception on the part of the public is that having a gun in the home will protect them," said Levin. "We're the most heavily armed industrial nation in the world. Overall, firearm-related deaths are 12 times higher among children under age 14 than in all the other 25 industrial countries combined."
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Link Posted: 4/15/2002 5:34:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2002 11:00:14 AM EDT by Halfcocked]
(contined) Is this true? Look carefully how this is written. A percentage that is greater "than in all the other 25 industrial countries [b]combined[/b]" (emphasis added). This makes it sound like there are more deaths than all the other countries combined. That's not what it really says though.
Levin actively campaigned against the new weapons law, but says there's no organized effort to overturn it.
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I think they misspelled his name. It's actually spelled Lenin.
"The bottom line is that the Legislature enacted it and we're following the statute," said McCabe.
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Said another way the Legislature that serves at the pleasure of The People finale did their job.
Sheng said the typical buyers tend to be men, many of them as young as 21 with clean records, a permit, but not necessarily enough training in weapons safety. He has mixed emotions about the change in the law. "There's negative and positive about it," Sheng said. "It's good for people who are knowledgeable about their stuff. Other people, they just want to be cooler."
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Who the hell is Sheng and what makes him an expert.
Prosecutors ring in Despite a lack of evidence so far of an increase in gun-related violence, many prosecutors are sticking by their opposition to the new law. Many county prosecutors quit their local three-person gun boards, including Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca, protesting that the new law turned gun boards into rubber stamps for concealed weapons permits. Gorcyca has no intention of rejoining the board. "I wouldn't get on unless they granted the boards more discretion," said Gorcyca. "I don't foresee that in the near future. I haven't noticed any proliferation of gun violence, but that remains to be seen, as well."
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Spoken like a true professional. Said another way, "The hell with evidence. I don't need no stinking evidence".
Meanwhile, organized opposition to the new law has quietly died, and that's not likely to re-emerge. "Not until that one poster case somewhere in the state occurs," said Gorcyca. "Then you'll see a hue and cry for change."
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We'll ignore all the lives saved by shall issue and as soon as we get a chance we'll pounce on the one instance gone wrong. Sheese.[:(!] ©The Oakland Press 2002
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 7:15:04 AM EDT
From October 1987 to July 1995, 469 people were identified as committing crimes after having been licensed to carry concealed weapons in Florida. And in Texas from January 1997 to January 1998, concealed weapons holders were arrested for 946 crimes, including 263 felony arrests.
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I don't see the problem. That's 469 people in Florida and 946 people in Texas who can no longer possess a CCW permit. It's self-correcting. In time, only law abiding citizens will possess CCW permits. Indeed, that brings to mind a way to separate criminals from the good guys. Give everyone a CCW permit, and once you are arrested for a serious crime you lose the permit. In time it will be possible to tell the criminals from the citizens by whether or not they possess a CCW. Duh. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 7:20:07 AM EDT
I don't see the problem. That's 469 people in Florida and 946 people in Texas who can no longer possess a CCW permit. It's self-correcting. In time, only law abiding citizens will possess CCW permits. Indeed, that brings to mind a way to separate criminals from the good guys. Give everyone a CCW permit, and once you are arrested for a serious crime you lose the permit. In time it will be possible to tell the criminals from the citizens by whether or not they possess a CCW. Duh. [rolleyes]
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That would violate the criminals 5th amendment rights. [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 7:38:11 AM EDT
And their second. but who is counting. why not make all felonies life sentences w/o parole? or better yet if you can't play by the rules you can't live in this country ie. all felons get emendate extradition to Mexico.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 7:48:04 AM EDT
From October 1987 to July 1995, 469 people were identified as committing crimes after having been licensed to carry concealed weapons in Florida. And in Texas from January 1997 to January 1998, concealed weapons holders were arrested for 946 crimes, including 263 felony arrests.
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IIRC after these numbers were first reported one of the RKBA sites actually analyzed the numbers compared to the general population. That is, they compared the numbewr of arrests in a random selection of the population of an identical size to the nnumber of CCW holders. I believe the results indicated that a CCW holder was either 1/10th or 1/30th as likely to be charged with a crime as a member of the general population. Gotta love when the media uses statistics to lie. It makes them feel so morally superior to the rest of us.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 7:53:04 AM EDT
"And in Texas from January 1997 to January 1998, concealed weapons holders were arrested for 946 crimes, including 263 felony arrests." This statement\"statistic" says nothing about whether or not those CHL holders had their permits revoked or not. The 263 new felons are a different story. Their permits are gone...for good. If I were arrested on a misdemeanor, I would not have my license revoked. It might get suspended for a certain amount of time depending on the class of misdemeanor. The data for revocation of permits in Texas is available at the Texas department of Public Safety website. It currently states that between 1995 and 2002, there have been 1,772 revocations have taken place. The quoted data in the article makes it appear as if there were over 900 revocations in one year. Not true. It also makes it appear that ALL of those arrests were due to a crime involving a firearm. I seriously doubt that's the case. The truth is, people fuck up, they make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes are crimes. There are currently 220,940 active CHL permits in Texas. To draw conclusions that it is the Actual licensing that has caused these "arrests" is retarded, shortsighted and ignorant. I just love it when people use skewed or partial "data" to falsely further their own agenda! [:(!] --ZERO
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 9:51:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2002 9:52:46 AM EDT by redray]
marvl's post : "I don't see the problem. That's 469 people in Florida and 946 people in Texas who can no longer possess a CCW permit. It's self-correcting. In time, only law abiding citizens will possess CCW permits. Indeed, that brings to mind a way to separate criminals from the good guys. Give everyone a CCW permit, and once you are arrested for a serious crime you lose the permit. In time it will be possible to tell the criminals from the citizens by whether or not they possess a CCW." good point marvl. i was thinking of the same thing in bed last night but couldnt put it into words. "self correcting" is a good, nope, great point !!!! edited coz i f'd up the quote thingys
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 10:12:58 AM EDT
Note the numbers are for arrests, not convictions. Also note that no comparison is made to the general population. Typical misuse of numbers. Also, the general tone of the article. These guys talk about discretion. What they mean is they want the ability to say no for no good reason. Typical softball reporting. No one asked what other reasons the coppers would say no for.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 10:32:00 AM EDT
I can't find the article anymore, but I remember somewhere else, these arrests in Florida and Texas were mentioned. Most of them had nothing to do with guns or the person's CCW. That's just the way these people distort the truth. As for the rest of the industrialized world, several studies have shown us not be even in the top 5. I can't remember the links, but one UK study showed us number 7, while several others showed us to be around 15 or 16. These are based on per capita. You can't compare total numbers of most industrialized nations because we have many times over what most have as far as population.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 11:08:29 AM EDT
This is in a state where they have handgun registration thinly disguised as 'safety inspection'. The courts in Michigan, however, ruled that you can't arrest a convicted felon for possessing an unregistered handgun because requiring them to register a gun they are prohibited from owning would violate their 5th amendment right against self-incrimination. None of this is really surprising. I grew up in Michigan, and the public officials there truly think the general public is a bunch of racist, hot-tempered boobs who can't be trusted to do anything right. I don't think Oakland County has ever had a Sheriff or a District Attorney who weren't arrogant, elitist pricks who don't trust the people to tie their own shoes. Thank God I had the sense to move west!!!!! Beautiful state in some areas, but the laws and politics absolutely SUCK!
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 11:28:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 12:07:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Halfcocked: snip
A study by the New England Journal of Medicine found that the presence of a gun in the house makes it three times more likely that someone will be killed by a family member or domestic partner. snip
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This "research" fails to consider that people that kill "a family member or domestic partner" may be predisposed to violence as a behavior and as a possible solution to life's problems and (falsely) suggests that guns are a cause rather than an effect. A similar "research" showed that women with breast implants were more likely to have illness, but the lifestyle of women with breast implants i.e. heavy smoking, drinking, drug use, late hours, etc. was ignored as a possible and more likely cause of illness. We should pause to remember that medical professionals routinely bled the dying and infirm until very recently.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 7:55:45 PM EDT
Here's the headline I want to see: "Wave of unexplained disappearances have public officials locked in their homes in terror"
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 8:10:33 PM EDT
Trickshot, You may not have to wait long for that headline, but hopefully you won't be here to read it [;)] Anyway, to the topic at hand. I live in Michigan and read that article with the same kind of suspicious eye as the rest of you. Interestingly, right around the time that was printed, the Detroit Free Press and a few other local papers ran the same article, but without the obvious anti-gun slant. Oakland is very liberal and thus could not run the article without trying to spin it their way and if you ask me they did a pretty transparent job. The Detroit Free Press ran a front page article titled something like "CCW Permit Applications are Up, But Crime is Not" right out front in bold letters. I haven't gotten mine yet but I will soon. My carry gun is going to be a S&W .38+ Airweight. I like wheel guns. After that I'm getting a Springfield 1911 for when it cools off.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 8:42:33 PM EDT
Hold the phone, hold the phone! Fellas, what are you saying? "I don't see the problem...In time, only law abiding citizens will possess CCW permits." You jest, right? I know you'e aware that in the beginning of our country, there were no laws against multi-ball capacity guns (like today's hi-cap mags). There were no laws on barrel lengths (like Randy Weaver). There were no laws against taking a gun to work (like the AOL workers). Those people would never have become criminals for these acts. But in time laws were passed to make us criminals for these acts. More to my point, is that there were no laws restricting a person from having a gun who commited a minor felony. The laws can be, actually are being changed to make more and more people criminals and thus barred from having a gun. So in time, no one will be able to own guns except the UN. You guys don't see this?
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 5:37:25 PM EDT
I see it, but what are we going to do about it? I would like to take a poll and find out how many AR15 dot-commers actually voted in the last election, and if they did, did they vote in only pro-gun people. You people who say voting doesn't change anything are part of the reason why it doesn't. Barring the peaceful approach of elections, I don't see how this struggle will end in anything short of civil war. You decide...
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 5:57:38 PM EDT
Have I voted? HAVE I VOTED? EVERY damn election I have been eligible for has seen a ballot attached to my name. I also keep writing letters and offering to discuss matters with my unlelected representatives. I get return letters - some of them are even on topic. No invites for a face-to-face, tho... On another note, I have also volunteered for Civil Grand Jury service for the 2002-2003 term in Santa Clara County. I went an interviewed with the Judge yesterday, who found me "Obviously Qualified." God help these people if I get past the "random selection" part (odds are 16/30, from what the Hizzoner told me yesterday!) Kingme - one small correction. The barrel on the shotgun that Randy Weaver was prosecuted and eventually shot for was actually 18.5" long. He was raked over the coals on the "overall length" provision of the NFA, as the shotgun - with legal barrel - was a total of 27-5/8" long. In short (no pun intended!) he was shot, his wife and son killed, and held at siege within his own home, over 3/8" of WOODEN BUTTSTOCK. Most people do not know the pernicious extent of the NFA - read up on it when you get a chance. If memory serves, you will find in in 26CFR - the Internal Revenue Code! That's right, it is a TAX law, just like ATF is an overgrown branch of the IRS that runs amok... I can't cite the relevant sections of 26CFR offhand, but I'm sure that is the correct title. One of these days, I will post a listing of places and laws/regulations we all need to remain conversant with (18USC44 comes to mind, sections 921 thru 930.) Kingme - you are otherwise spot on! Just want to make sure you have your facts correct, and it is a small but significant error... FFZ
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