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Posted: 9/15/2010 10:04:20 PM EDT
Just wondering. It had to have started somewhere.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:05:07 PM EDT
Compton
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:06:32 PM EDT
Zing!
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:08:04 PM EDT
good question.

I don't have an answer, but one day I was listening to the radio and they were interviewing 50cent. He was talking about the gun training he did for an acting job, and was saying in amazement how the trainers were so good because they used the sights. He went onto say something about how most thugs can't handle a weapon and don't know how to shoot. I actually liked the guy a little because he was very candid in admitting that.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:10:40 PM EDT
Chinese and the broom handle mauser.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:12:18 PM EDT
are you talking completely horizontal and like over your head kind of sideways?

or kind of angled, like the same angle your hand would be if you were naturally pointing at something.

when i practice point and shoot, i hold my pistol at the same angle as my hand would be if i were pointing. my groups are close and consistent.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:13:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By xwarp:
are you talking completely horizontal and like over your head kind of sideways?

or kind of angled, like the same angle your hand would be if you were naturally pointing at something.

when i practice point and shoot, i hold my pistol at the same angle as my hand would be if i were pointing. my groups are close and consistent.


Horizontal.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:14:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By I_Yeager_I:
Chinese and the broom handle mauser.


Who are the patriots?

Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:14:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By I_Yeager_I:
Chinese and the broom handle mauser.

always heard that story too
mowing people down with stocked broom handles held sideways and allowed to recoil in a arc
as military rifles were banned and rare during the boxer rebellion

more modernly was the theory in movies its easier to see the actors face that way
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:17:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GNRNR:
Compton


^This^

Hollyweird writers and directors used actual video tapes of takedown robberies from jewelry stores and other retail establishments. When a takedown would occur, one or two guys would make the employees get down on the floor behind the counters while the others broke the glass with hammers. To cover the people on the floor, the gunmen would hold their guns over the counters is a sideways and vertical position.

Hollyweird took that form and brought it up to a horizontal firing position while the actor(s) aimed their guns.

The rest is history.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:18:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:18:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By xwarp:
are you talking completely horizontal and like over your head kind of sideways?

or kind of angled, like the same angle your hand would be if you were naturally pointing at something.

when i practice point and shoot, i hold my pistol at the same angle as my hand would be if i were pointing. my groups are close and consistent.
This. Natural point of aim forces you to rotate your handgun inboard. When I shoot one handed I am almost horizontal, I am cross eye dominant so it has roll inboard more.

Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:19:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Danj:

Originally Posted By xwarp:
are you talking completely horizontal and like over your head kind of sideways?

or kind of angled, like the same angle your hand would be if you were naturally pointing at something.

when i practice point and shoot, i hold my pistol at the same angle as my hand would be if i were pointing. my groups are close and consistent.
This. Natural point of aim forces you to rotate your handgun inboard. When I shoot one handed I am almost horizontal, I am cross eye dominant so it has roll inboard more.



^This^ too.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:20:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DIXI:
Originally Posted By xwarp:
are you talking completely horizontal and like over your head kind of sideways?

or kind of angled, like the same angle your hand would be if you were naturally pointing at something.

when i practice point and shoot, i hold my pistol at the same angle as my hand would be if i were pointing. my groups are close and consistent.


Horizontal.


I read somewhere that it originated with the IAF. The Israelies (sp?) had to teach young draftees how to safely carry a sidearm; they decided it was best for them to carry it in Condition 3 (magazine loaded, empty chamber) and have them draw and chamber a round. This is almost as fast as drawing in Condition 1; they were NOT trying to teach them to be gunslingers.

So they taught them to draw the weapon and present it sideways to quickly draw the slide. Then they had to teach them to shoot the first round from that position.

The 'street thugs' thought it looked tacticool so they adopted it, too.

But I may be wrong. It's happened before.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:20:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:20:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Danj:

Originally Posted By xwarp:
are you talking completely horizontal and like over your head kind of sideways?

or kind of angled, like the same angle your hand would be if you were naturally pointing at something.

when i practice point and shoot, i hold my pistol at the same angle as my hand would be if i were pointing. my groups are close and consistent.
This. Natural point of aim forces you to rotate your handgun inboard. When I shoot one handed I am almost horizontal, I am cross eye dominant so it has roll inboard more.


chapman tilt is a little different from gansta sideways
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:54:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ishoot2live:
Originally Posted By GNRNR:
Compton


^This^

Hollyweird writers and directors used actual video tapes of takedown robberies from jewelry stores and other retail establishments. When a takedown would occur, one or two guys would make the employees get down on the floor behind the counters while the others broke the glass with hammers. To cover the people on the floor, the gunmen would hold their guns over the counters is a sideways and vertical position.

Hollyweird took that form and brought it up to a horizontal firing position while the actor(s) aimed their guns.

The rest is history.


This reeks of the truth.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:56:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2010 10:58:33 PM EDT by mattja]


That was rad.

I think if you look at some of the ghetto rats and their gang signals, you'll see they point that way sometimes. And if they point that way with a gun in their hand, that's what you'll see.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 12:15:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2010 12:16:47 AM EDT by hawzwood]
Duh.




Peace out, homies.

Link Posted: 9/16/2010 12:25:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2010 12:25:55 AM EDT by hawzwood]
There is also a relationship between the gangsta style backwards-leaning top-hold steering wheel grip driving methodology that carries over to their strong hand weapon manipulation.

Typically because there usually is a direct correlation between driving and shooting.

Unless this was witnessed at a Magpul Dynamics course.

Then one might suspect they are simply trying to better keep their weapon system in their workspace.



Link Posted: 9/16/2010 3:51:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 3:55:11 AM EDT
A thug that was too lazy to lift the gun all the way straight.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 4:11:34 AM EDT
The theory I heard about 10 years ago is this. SWAT teams use/used shields. The shieldman held his gun sideways because that's the only way he could sight it through the port on the shield. Gangtas saw that, failed to understand the whys and the limitations, and adopted it.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 4:17:00 AM EDT
The ghetto.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 4:23:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FrankSymptoms:
Originally Posted By DIXI:
Originally Posted By xwarp:
are you talking completely horizontal and like over your head kind of sideways?

or kind of angled, like the same angle your hand would be if you were naturally pointing at something.

when i practice point and shoot, i hold my pistol at the same angle as my hand would be if i were pointing. my groups are close and consistent.


Horizontal.


I read somewhere that it originated with the IAF. The Israelies (sp?) had to teach young draftees how to safely carry a sidearm; they decided it was best for them to carry it in Condition 3 (magazine loaded, empty chamber) and have them draw and chamber a round. This is almost as fast as drawing in Condition 1; they were NOT trying to teach them to be gunslingers.

So they taught them to draw the weapon and present it sideways to quickly draw the slide. Then they had to teach them to shoot the first round from that position.

The 'street thugs' thought it looked tacticool so they adopted it, too.

But I may be wrong. It's happened before.


Same thing I've heard / read.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 4:23:58 AM EDT
Rear somewhere it started with Eli Walach in one of Clint Eastwood's Spagehtti Westerns.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 4:24:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 4:26:53 AM EDT
Perhaps it utilizes some of the same muscle groups as those required to hang onto a tree branch.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 4:29:49 AM EDT
Has to do with pointing.

Link Posted: 9/16/2010 4:32:29 AM EDT
aaaaand IBTL.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 4:33:16 AM EDT
IIRC, Steve McQueen fired a BAR sideways in "The Sand Pebbles"
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 4:36:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2010 4:36:27 AM EDT by happycynic]
I've also heard that it is due to the no holster Mexican carry gangbangers use. Drawing from that position and firing sideways is quicker than rotating the gun.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 4:39:50 AM EDT
Tag for later...maybe.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 4:43:15 AM EDT


I think you got it. There was a training video that came out in the early 70's that showed some cops practicing that hold. They didn't have a riot shield so it gave off the wrong impression. Thankfully, the gansta punks jumped on the cool factor thing and can't hit shit now days.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 5:01:15 AM EDT


I sure miss Birdman.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 5:05:10 AM EDT
You guys are all WRONG. They do it that way because it's the way it comes out of the box. Cleat
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 5:07:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2010 5:08:05 AM EDT by RTBA-8]
I heard they hold it sideways because that's how the gun comes out of the box.
ETA: Beat by a couple seconds...
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 5:09:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RTBA-8:
I heard they hold it sideways because that's how the gun comes out of the box.
ETA: Beat by a couple seconds...


damn beat by a few minutes
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 5:15:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Troubl3shooter:


I sure miss Birdman.


Nuke .50, baby.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 5:16:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By I_Yeager_I:
Chinese and the broom handle mauser.


Concur.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 5:21:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 5:30:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:

Originally Posted By Danj:

Originally Posted By xwarp:
are you talking completely horizontal and like over your head kind of sideways?

or kind of angled, like the same angle your hand would be if you were naturally pointing at something.

when i practice point and shoot, i hold my pistol at the same angle as my hand would be if i were pointing. my groups are close and consistent.
This. Natural point of aim forces you to rotate your handgun inboard. When I shoot one handed I am almost horizontal, I am cross eye dominant so it has roll inboard more.


chapman tilt is a little different from gansta sideways

Gangsta sideways is just an exaggerated form of it. I had one ward of the state tell me it also helped keep spent rounds inside the car during drive by shootings. Of course, he was a complete idiot and every word coming out of his mouth was instantly suspect.

I suspect it is just a way for them to show how casually they approach shooting, as if it was something they did so much they didn't need to follow the rules or shoot like a cop. Their grip style is just another form of rebellion. Kind of like wearing a life vest and holding your AK over your head.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 5:49:14 AM EDT
I've heard several theories. I have seen trainers teach this way for weak hand shooting as the wrist is stronger in this position so that you will get less muzzle flip. I have also seen, as mentioned above, when shooting around a shield, to cant the weapon so the sights can be brought in front of your line of sight while your melon is still behind the shield.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 5:51:11 AM EDT
Why do they thrust the gun forward when they pull the trigger or hop around like chimps when faced with return fire? Neither is effective and they're both lazy, piss poor technique. But it doesn't hurt my feelings. They're more likely to get killed doing dumb shit like that when faced with an armed and even somewhat experienced shooter.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:03:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By oldcatdriver:
Perhaps *SNIP*


Peace out girl scout.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:05:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By oldcatdriver:
Perhaps it utilizes some of the same muscle groups as those required to hang onto a tree branch.


What you did. I see it.

Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:07:29 AM EDT
Central Axis Relock
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:13:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jeepnstein:
Gangsta sideways is just an exaggerated form of it. I had one ward of the state tell me it also helped keep spent rounds inside the car during drive by shootings. Of course, he was a complete idiot and every word coming out of his mouth was instantly suspect.

I suspect it is just a way for them to show how casually they approach shooting, as if it was something they did so much they didn't need to follow the rules or shoot like a cop. Their grip style is just another form of rebellion. Kind of like wearing a life vest and holding your AK over your head.


While it has nothing to do with the origins of the style, this is most definitely the reason for it.
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:22:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2010 6:23:17 AM EDT by Franklin46]
The first time I saw it done was in the '70s, in an article on Israeli tactical training.

I cannot remember the exact reason the technique was taught, but it wasn't a being taught as a technique to be " normally" employed. It was something around a better way to rack the slide, or extreme close quarters, or maybe even as a way to quickly chamber a single round into an empty pistol (as previously noted).

These were still photos in a magazine, so the context of what happened just before and after the picture was snapped was missing, whereas in a video it would have been apparent.

The first time I saw it done in a movie (in the '80s) I remember thinking "that's an improper employment of that Israeli training I saw several years ago".
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:23:24 AM EDT
Cause that's how it comes out of the box
Link Posted: 9/16/2010 6:27:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By oldcatdriver:
Perhaps it utilizes some of the same muscle groups as those required to hang onto a tree branch.


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