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Posted: 9/15/2010 10:46:55 AM EDT
I recently saw an ad for some Polish Radom P-64, 9 X 18 Makarov caliber and they were listed as C&R (Curio and Relic) firearms, listed for slightly less than $200.
A $200 pistol sent right to my front door? How you gonna beat it? 
It came in a few days and I opened the box like a kid at Christmas. It was just as advertised, used, but with only a little wear on the bluing. It had been shot, but was almost “New in Box”. Here it is, in the shipping box. 
It comes with two magazines and is a fine looking little pistol. 
The P-64 is a double-action, blow-back pistol. It is in “9 X 18 Makarov” caliber, but the design is not a Makarov. The 9X18 Makarov cartridge is slightly less powerful than the 9mm Luger cartridge, but is more powerful than the .380. With the best ammo, it will make the FBI minimum penetration standard of 12 inches. The pistol was designed for use by the Polish Army and is similar to the PPK design. I don’t know why an Army officer would carry such a small pistol into combat, but it would be great if someone wanted a small pistol, small enough to fit in their pocket. I took it out of the box and gave it a thorough cleaning, as I do with any new firearm. To break it down for cleaning, you simply pull down on the trigger guard and then pull the slide back and up and it comes right off the pistol. 
I noticed that the feed ramp wasn’t as smooth as I like them, 
So decided to do a throat and ramp polishing job on it before taking it shooting. I use some jeweler’s rouge and a polishing bob with my Dremel tool. I just get some of the polish on the bob… 
And then polish the feed ramp. 
We don’t want to remove any metal, but only polish up the ramp as smooth as we can get it. Here it is after the polishing job. 
I expected that it would feed without any problems and sure, enough, it did. 
This pistol is about the size of the Russian Makarov or the PA-63 Makarov. It is slightly smaller than either of the other two. 
It has a grip slightly shorter than the PA-63. 
And the barrel is slightly shorter. 
Well, let’s see how it shoots.
I took it to the range and ran some Wolf factory JRN Ball rounds through it. It functioned well, but the recoil was almost painful with the small grip. 
One thing that surprised me was the absolutely atrocious double action trigger pull. It bet it takes 30 pounds to pull the trigger double action. Amazingly, the single action trigger pull was both light and crisp. I will usually be shooting it single action at targets, so that isn’t a big problem. And the stiff double action trigger pull would act as a great “Safety” if carried with the hammer down and the Safety engaged. The shooter sure isn’t going to “accidentally” pull that double action trigger. The sights were very small, but it shot pretty close to point of aim. I shot some handloads I loaded up with round nose lead bullets over a light charge of WW-231 powder. These were much more pleasant to shoot and shot accurately. Here’s a group of 12 shots. 
Conclusions: A very nice pistol for the money, and fun to shoot and easy to clean and maintain. Negatives: 1. Very stiff double action trigger pull (I understand that Wolff Springs are available that will help with the trigger pull.) 2. The small grip is painful to shoot with full-power loads Positives: 1. It is an accurate pistol 2. Well worth the price paid for such a firearm 3. Easy to conceal 4. An interesting piece of history If you’ve been looking for a small and inexpensive carry piece, give this one a look. 
Besides........Shooting stuff is fun.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 10:48:57 AM EDT
[#1]
how ironic that you and I are on the same wavelength today.
I just got a new to me set of brown grips to replace the black grips on my second Makarov so that it will match my first. Akimbo, anyone? Love my Maks, they fit my smaller hands perfectly, all metal frame and slide give me confidence, and the robust round with concealable size make my two top of the list. Disclaimer: I also own and regularly shoot a Kimber 1911 
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Posted: 9/15/2010 10:51:12 AM EDT
[#2]
Very nice!
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Posted: 9/15/2010 10:52:58 AM EDT
[#3]
Check out the Polish P-83, another good bargain pistol IMO.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 10:53:49 AM EDT
[#4]
Nice. Thanks for sharing.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 10:57:36 AM EDT
[#5]
Great post as usual. I want one.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 10:58:11 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
how ironic that you and I are on the same wavelength today. I just got a new to me set of brown grips to replace the black grips on my second Makarov so that it will match my first. Akimbo, anyone? Love my Maks, they fit my smaller hands perfectly, all metal frame and slide give me confidence, and the robust round with concealable size make my two top of the list. Disclaimer: I also own and regularly shoot a Kimber 1911 They are amazingly accurate, IMHO.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 10:59:03 AM EDT
[#7]
Man.. I need to get a C&R.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 10:59:25 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Check out the Polish P-83, another good bargain pistol IMO. I've kind of been thinking about one of those.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 10:59:54 AM EDT
[#9]
Good post.
I carry a P64 in a home made crossbreed holster. Couple things I would like to mention: The double action trigger can be greatly improved with a new mainspring from Wolf, and recoil made more manageable with a Wolf recoil spring. The DA trigger will never be excellent, but for first shot accuracy with some practice on the reduced power springs, I'm comfortable with it. The P64 should never be carried chambered with the safety off, depending on the DA pull to act as a safety. It will, of course, act as a wonderful trigger safety, but there is no firing pin block to prevent a hammer down discharge if the pistol is dropped. There have been a couple of NDs posted about on the P64 forums because of this. You could say, "Don't drop the gun" like "my finger is my safety" but I wanted to make a note of it. I think they're excellent handguns, if the trigger could be more improved. I will say this, you could never machine the parts for this gun as beautifully as they are machined for >$200. They are a lot of bang for the buck. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:00:07 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
how ironic that you and I are on the same wavelength today. I just got a new to me set of brown grips to replace the black grips on my second Makarov so that it will match my first. Akimbo, anyone? Love my Maks, they fit my smaller hands perfectly, all metal frame and slide give me confidence, and the robust round with concealable size make my two top of the list. Disclaimer: I also own and regularly shoot a Kimber 1911 They are amazingly accurate, IMHO.
agreed. Would you attribute that to the fixed barrel? pic of my second one (which matches the first) 
another thing to note is the ease of reloading the caliber, although I always struggle with getting such spherical lead rounds set straight into the casings |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:04:06 AM EDT
[#11]
I see that you have a PA-63, how do you like it?
Pros? Cons? |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:07:12 AM EDT
[#12]
IIRC Wolff makes springs for those guns too. The Wolff springs in the PA63 makes it almost enjoyable and improves the trigger pull immeasurably.
With their fixed barrels I've found these little eastern bloc guns are usually capable of very good accuracy limited more by the smallish sights and the shooter's ability than the gun itself. A drop of bright paint on the front sight of my PA63 and my friends and I were all easily clanging gongs with it. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:09:13 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
The P64 should never be carried chambered with the safety off, depending on the DA pull to act as a safety. It will, of course, act as a wonderful trigger safety, but there is no firing pin block to prevent a hammer down discharge if the pistol is dropped. There have been a couple of NDs posted about on the P64 forums because of this. You could say, "Don't drop the gun" like "my finger is my safety" but I wanted to make a note of it. I agree and that was not what I meant.
I changed the original post to clear that up. Many thanks. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:11:04 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
(Accuracy statement) Would you attribute that to the fixed barrel? Yes, I do indeed. I think that the fixed barrel gives a very solid foundation for accuracy.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:11:31 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Great post as usual. I want one. My work here is done.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:11:59 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Quoted: The P64 should never be carried chambered with the safety off, depending on the DA pull to act as a safety. It will, of course, act as a wonderful trigger safety, but there is no firing pin block to prevent a hammer down discharge if the pistol is dropped. There have been a couple of NDs posted about on the P64 forums because of this. You could say, "Don't drop the gun" like "my finger is my safety" but I wanted to make a note of it. I agree and that was not what I meant. I changed the original post to clear that up. Many thanks. I didn't figure you did  |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:13:05 AM EDT
[#17]
Very nifty. Would feel right at home in a spy-thriller.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:13:14 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
I see that you have a PA-63, how do you like it? Pros? Cons? Here's an in depth report.
PA-63 Makarov Pistol |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:15:03 AM EDT
[#19]
Tag for home. These got my attention when they hit the C+R list. Thanks, OP.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:24:30 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
IIRC Wolff makes springs for those guns too. The Wolff springs in the PA63 makes it almost enjoyable and improves the trigger pull immeasurably. With their fixed barrels I've found these little eastern bloc guns are usually capable of very good accuracy limited more by the smallish sights and the shooter's ability than the gun itself. A drop of bright paint on the front sight of my PA63 and my friends and I were all easily clanging gongs with it. I believe you are correct. The Russian Makarov has very good sights, and it is so accurate that many people are simply amazed at how well it will shoot in the right hands.
My old buddy Tman used to offer to shoot for groups with his Makarov against anyone, even if they shot a Gold Cup. 
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:32:39 AM EDT
[#21]
Got mine maybe two weeks ago.
I'm not super happy with it, but it's worth $200. In 9x18, I'd rather have the Czech vz.82. The '83 is 9x19, but it's not C&R. The '82, on the other hand, is roughly the same price as the P-64, has a capacity of 12, is more comfortable to shoot and is overall the nicer pistol, I think. I dropped the Wolff springs into my P-64 and that lightened up the trigger pull by at least half. It's still a little tight, but that's just the design. No affect on the single-action pull. It's also recommended to put in a beefier recoil spring if you're going to shoot 90+grain bullets out of the '64. I have two problems with the P-64 and both of them are unique to people with smaller hands. First, the trigger reach from the back of the grip to the front edge of the trigger is just over three inches. In my hand, with a proper grip, I'm pulling the trigger with the very tip of my finger. Ideally, you should be pulling with the pad of your finger (not the notch or tip). My second issue is that the grip doesn't fully cover the frame at the top. The steel frame drags on the side of my thumb which is somewhat uncomfotrable. Again, this is just unique to my hands so if yours are larger it probably won't be an issue. The vz.82, however, is a beautifully-shooting handgun. The trigger reach is a hair less than 2.75", which puts the pad of my finger comfortably on the front of the trigger. The bore line actually sits a little bit lower and recoil is milder as a result. Accuracy is excellent. I do think that the fixed barrels on both guns contributes to their accuracy, but the sights are relatively rudimentary. The slide also has quite a bit of play when it's in battery. So if you happen to get one that locks up consistently you should get good accuracy. Also, not that I'd drill into a C&R but just wondering out loud here... I think if there were a way to fix a frame-mounted sight to them you might see some very impressive accuracy as a result. And after that long post, I do actually have a question, O_P. You mention that the 9x18 is capable of 12" penetration "with the right loads." I believe you, but I'm having trouble finding any quality ammunition or projectiles for reloading. Hornady is the only one that makes a JHP component bullet that I can find (the Speer GDHPs were apparently discontinued), and even the Hornadys are out of stock everywhere. Do you know of a source for components or would you suggest that FMJs are the best self-defense load? Thanks in advance and cheers! |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:36:46 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Do you know of a source for components or would you suggest that FMJs are the best self-defense load? I won't speak for O_P but I believe the 9x18 loads that make 12" are all FMJ loadings. I carry FMJ in mine. I don't carry JHPs in anything smaller than 9x19 or .38 Sp personally. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:42:04 AM EDT
[#23]
I've got 3 of them, all with Wolf springs and one I've converted to DAO to use as my BUG. They're a fine little pistol.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:49:56 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you know of a source for components or would you suggest that FMJs are the best self-defense load? I won't speak for O_P but I believe the 9x18 loads that make 12" are all FMJ loadings. I carry FMJ in mine. I don't carry JHPs in anything smaller than 9x19 or .38 Sp personally. Roger that. I've got some factory-loaded FMJ but I wasn't sure if that was going to be the best choice. I have no facility to test loads myself, which is unfortunate, but what can you do, right? I suppose I was hoping that I could somehow get better performance out of these little guys because I can reload for them. Oh, well, though. I'm happy with my 11cent/round lead handloads from turned-down 9x19 brass. It's fun to use unwanted brass to make an old gun fun again. Perhaps it's best to let the milsurps punch paper at the range and keep the 9x19 for carry. Thanks. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:55:18 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: The '82, on the other hand, is roughly the same price as the P-64, has a capacity of 12, is more comfortable to shoot and is overall the nicer pistol, I think. The P64 will slip into a pocket and go unnoticed, the CZ-82 is just too bulky for that. While I like the CZ-82 and I agree with your assessment of it, it simply fills no need for me (other than to shoot stuff, which is always fun ). It's too big to be a pocket pistol, a BUG or hideout gun, and if I'm going to wear a gun in a holster it's going to be at least 9x19.The PA-63 is bigger than the P64, with the longer barrel it's almost too long to be used as a pocket pistol unless you have your pockets lengthened, even on my cargo pants the back of the grip sits right at the top of the pocket, too high for the pocket to close over it. And the longer grip makes it harder to reach into a pocket and draw it out cleanly. While it's alloy frame makes it lighter than the P64, which is nice for pocket carry, it also can't take a steady diet of hot loads like the steel frame P64 can. And while it's got a better DA trigger than the P64, it still benefits significantly from Wolf springs. And IMO Wolf springs are mandatory in the PA-63 if you're going to be firing hot loads. Oh, and those gawdawful grips on the PA-63 with the huge thumb shelf will print in a pocket and kill your hand if you're left handed. Not that hard to fix though, fill the underside up with epoxy and grind it off. For me the P64 fills a niche the other guns, including the Makarov, do not. And it does it for under $200. Hard to beat that IMO. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:56:04 AM EDT
[#26]
I used to have around 10 Makarovs and bought them when they were as cheap as $99.00 at J&G. I sold all but one in 9x18 and one in .380.
I also have one of the CZ-82s in 9x18. Nice little gun with a 12 round capacity. 
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Posted: 9/15/2010 11:57:34 AM EDT
[#27]
Thanks for posting this O_P.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:01:19 PM EDT
[#28]
It's a nice looking little pistol. Thanks for the review.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:06:52 PM EDT
[#29]
thanks for the report, seems like a neat little carry gun.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:13:58 PM EDT
[#30]
While a bit pricy, Buffalo Bore does make a 115 grain flat nose in 9x18. I am not sure it would be comfortable in a '64, but that might depend on the shooter.
It is loaded hot, |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:14:56 PM EDT
[#31]
I want one of these but how can I justify adding another caliber to my collection? It's not like I need it.
Thanks for the write up Old_Painless. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:18:30 PM EDT
[#32]
one thing I forgot to mention. My one and only complaint with the platform, aside from not being able to get ammo from the local Walmart if it came down to it, is that the black factory grips have this superlative hump on the left side for thumb positioning as seen below, making the entire firearm nearly unusable for Southpaw shooters. The alternative brown "star" logo'ed grips are flat on both sides and supersede this issue, remaining right-hand oriented safety notwithstanding. FTI - This refers to the actual original Makarov platform. 
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:18:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
how ironic that you and I are on the same wavelength today. I just got a new to me set of brown grips to replace the black grips on my second Makarov so that it will match my first. Akimbo, anyone? Love my Maks, they fit my smaller hands perfectly, all metal frame and slide give me confidence, and the robust round with concealable size make my two top of the list. Disclaimer: I also own and regularly shoot a Kimber 1911 Call of Duty, anyone? 
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:24:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
one thing I forgot to mention. My one and only complaint with the platform, aside from not being able to get ammo from the local Walmart if it came down to it, is that the black factory grips have this superlative hump on the left side for thumb positioning as seen below, making the entire firearm nearly unusable for Southpaw shooters. The alternative brown "star" logo'ed grips are flat on both sides and supersede this issue, remaining right-hand oriented safety notwithstanding. FTI - This refers to the actual original Makarov platform. Usually that was just an aftermarket grip that was installed to allow the firearm to be imported as a sporting purposes firearm according to the old Makarov site. There are options available such as the E. German grip and a US rubber grip from Hogue for Makarovs. My complaint is the increase of price for the 9x18 round over what I used to pay for it. One option is trimming 9mm cases down and loading them. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:24:37 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: While a bit pricy, Buffalo Bore does make a 115 grain flat nose in 9x18. I am not sure it would be comfortable in a '64, but that might depend on the shooter. It is loaded hot, Unfortunately almost nothing other than light loads are comfortable in a P64 if you want to shoot a lot of rounds through it. I've smoothed all the sharp edges off the grips on mine and 20 rounds of hot loads will be about all I can take before the pain makes me want to stop. I've still got some of the RG milsurp ammo Sportsmans Guide was selling, and that stuff is the hottest 9x18 I've ever shot. It's a lot like shooting hot 38 +P ammo through a lightweight snubby but without the nice revolver grips. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:28:34 PM EDT
[#36]
Any websites selling these for that price point? I'd spend some time searching but I'm using my limited effing-off time here at work surfing ARFCom.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:31:22 PM EDT
[#37]
I was mostly happy with the one I had.
As stated, it can be painful to shoot and the sights suck in lower light levels. Just have to learn to aim instinctively. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:42:10 PM EDT
[#38]
I know of one person who was shot in the foot when their's fell off their bed and discharged,
DO NOT CARRY WITH ONE IN THE PIPE! we could discharge the weapon at the range in testing with a slight tap to the hammer with a piece of pvc
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:43:07 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
I know of one person who was shot in the foot when their's fell off their bed and discharged, DO NOT CARRY WITH ONE IN THE PIPE! we could discharge the weapon at the range in testing with a slight tap to the hammer with a piece of pvc well duh....see the post above. No FP block means hammer down discharges are possible if you're a moron and walk around with the safety off. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:53:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know of one person who was shot in the foot when their's fell off their bed and discharged, DO NOT CARRY WITH ONE IN THE PIPE! we could discharge the weapon at the range in testing with a slight tap to the hammer with a piece of pvc well duh....see the post above. No FP block means hammer down discharges are possible if you're a moron and walk around with the safety off. Well, I wouldn't call our friends "morons".
Let's just say that the piece should be carried with the "hammer block" Safety engaged.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:57:03 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: we could discharge the weapon at the range in testing with a slight tap to the hammer with a piece of pvc Are you sure you're talking about the P64? I know the firing pin is not blocked from contacting the primer and if the gun drops on the muzzle hard enough it can fire, but the hammer is blocked, it can't contact the firing pin unless the trigger is fully rearwards. I just checked all 3 of mine with a primed case and couldn't get any of them to fire by smacking the hammer with a plastic mallet. I tried it safety off and safety on and I smacked it pretty good. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 12:58:33 PM EDT
[#42]
I've been considering getting a P-64, thanks for the write up! I just ordered a Romanian TT-33 yesterday, always wanted a 7.62x25.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 1:00:07 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Quoted: I know of one person who was shot in the foot when their's fell off their bed and discharged, DO NOT CARRY WITH ONE IN THE PIPE! we could discharge the weapon at the range in testing with a slight tap to the hammer with a piece of pvc well duh....see the post above. No FP block means hammer down discharges are possible if you're a moron and walk around with the safety off. not everyone here reads entire threads, but they tent to read big red text as they scroll. just making the safety hazard clear. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 1:07:37 PM EDT
[#44]
What polishing compound is that? I normally use Flitz but that looks pretty handy and Flitz seems to separate.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 1:09:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Hehehe...I happen to have one on my right hip. Safety off because that double action trigger is about 25 lbs and a pretty good safety in and of itself.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 1:13:55 PM EDT
[#46]
Thanks for the review.
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Posted: 9/15/2010 1:14:16 PM EDT
[#47]
I thought about buyign one of those but decided I'd rather have another CZ82 instead.
Same caliber, better pistol. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 1:15:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
And after that long post, I do actually have a question, O_P. You mention that the 9x18 is capable of 12" penetration "with the right loads." I believe you, but I'm having trouble finding any quality ammunition or projectiles for reloading. Hornady is the only one that makes a JHP component bullet that I can find (the Speer GDHPs were apparently discontinued), and even the Hornadys are out of stock everywhere. Do you know of a source for components or would you suggest that FMJs are the best self-defense load? Thanks in advance and cheers! Unfortunately, this is a problem with 9 X 18 Maks.......Ammo availability. I did some testing here: Little Guns and the Box O' Truth Only Ball would reach the 12 inches required penetration. The Hornady JHP ammo expanded well, but stopped short in penetration. I would rather have adequate penetration than good expansion and too little penetration. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 1:16:29 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
I thought about buyign one of those but decided I'd rather have another CZ82 instead. Same caliber, better pistol. I'm going to get a CZ82 as well. Generally speaking I'm in agreement with you except for one thing: the P-64 conceals more easily and with the right pocket holster can actually pass as a pocket pistol. |
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Posted: 9/15/2010 1:16:56 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
What polishing compound is that? I normally use Flitz but that looks pretty handy and Flitz seems to separate. Sorry, but I don't know. My old buddy Tman gave it to me long ago. |
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