Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 4
Posted: 9/14/2010 4:01:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 4:06:09 PM EDT by targettarget]

Electric car upswing would crash grid



Recharging a car battery pulls about triple the amount of power used by a typical home



http://www.thestar.com/business/article/855406––electric-car-upswing-would-crash-grid-toronto-hydro-chief

Published On Wed Sep 01 2010
John Spears Business Reporter


Anthony Haines looks toward the imminent arrival of the electric car with enthusiasm and apprehension.

Why? As chief executive of Toronto Hydro, he has to run the wires that, in a few years, will charge up the batteries of thousands of cars across the city.

And he knows that right now, he can’t do it.

"If you connect about 10 per cent of the homes on any given street with an electric car, the electricity system fails,” Haines told an audience at Ryerson University Wednesday. "It basically can’t handle that load.”

What to do? That’s part of the reason why Toronto Hydro, Hydro One and the Ontario Power Authority have pledged a total of $7 million over the next five years to kick-start Ryerson’s new Centre for Urban Energy.

Cities suck up most of the energy consumed in Canada, but they don’t produce much.

The centre will look at that conundrum, examining how urban areas can produce more energy, more cleanly; how they can use less energy; and how they can store and distribute it differently.

The electric car is an immediate issue. The province estimates 5 per cent of vehicles will be electric by 2020, Haines said; but he thinks it could be higher, and in any case electric vehicles will be concentrated in cities.

Recharging a car battery pulls about triple the amount of power used by a typical home, he said. Compounding the problem, most people will want to plug in their cars after work in the early evening, which is just when household demand for power hits its peak.

"You connect this huge load on the grid, and the grid simply won’t handle that type of load,” said Haines. "We need some innovative solutions.”

Clearly, shifting car-charging time into lower-use periods is among them, but someone has to figure out just how to go about it.

Ryerson’s Ravi Seethapathy, who pushed for the creation of the centre, said Toronto is a good example of another urban problem: Most of its power is generated many miles from where it’s used, and there are choke-points in the wires bringing power into the city.

"Ideally, renewable energy should be put in the city,” he said, but most of it is being generated in "moose pasture” and still has to be carried long distances to market.

And even if more power is generated within the city, he said in an interview, the system isn’t currently wired to handle it.

The centre won’t just look at electricity. Seethapathy said there’s no reason why more appliances, including air conditioners, couldn’t run on natural gas.

Geothermal energy has also been neglected in urban setting, he said.

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:03:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 4:03:26 PM EDT by BlueJames]
Hydrogen fuel cell is the future, but only the market will decide when the time is right.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:03:09 PM EDT
Well no s––t.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:03:49 PM EDT
Really you don't say. I am fucking shocked. So lets just build more capacity of wait you can't do that. Lets say we had unlimited capacity. But, wait we need more transmission lines. Oh the noes not in my back yard.

I guess I should invest in pixy dust.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:04:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fxntime:
Well no s––t.

Don't tell Al gore.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:06:33 PM EDT

But..but...I wanted a hug from a polar bear.


Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:07:53 PM EDT
How many gas stations were there in 1896? How much gasoline was produced on an annual basis in the US?

And yet, somehow the infrastructure was developed to support the 10s of millions of cars that drive around every day in this country. Weird.

Magic, I guess.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:11:41 PM EDT
In Canada anyway...
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:12:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How many gas stations were there in 1896? How much gasoline was produced on an annual basis in the US?

And yet, somehow the infrastructure was developed to support the 10s of millions of cars that drive around every day in this country. Weird.

Magic, I guess.

No liberals involved then.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:12:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How many gas stations were there in 1896? How much gasoline was produced on an annual basis in the US?

And yet, somehow the infrastructure was developed to support the 10s of millions of cars that drive around every day in this country. Weird.

Magic, I guess.

You're joking, right?

If you're not....well...

The main difference is that your comparing a retro-fit to new system. How much money, time, labor would it take to retrofit every house in the USA with 220?

How much of the same would it take to build new, next-gen "clean coal" power plants?

It's a night and day difference.

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:14:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AudiDat:
In Canada anyway...

Because US infrastructure is so much more advanced?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:15:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By AudiDat:
In Canada anyway...

Because US infrastructure is so much more advanced?

50% of our yearly output is wasted on idling generators at night time, so we have a little more room than America's Hat.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:16:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 4:18:35 PM EDT by Strongbow]
SO? Build more grid and nuclear power plants. We have to quit shipping hundreds of billions of dollars overseas every year to feed our oil habit.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:17:40 PM EDT
More green energy fail. Wow, I'm so surprised.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:18:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Shockergd:

Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By AudiDat:
In Canada anyway...

Because US infrastructure is so much more advanced?

50% of our yearly output is wasted on idling generators at night time, so we have a little more room than America's Hat.

And Canada (or any other nation that uses electricity) uses 100% of our generator capacity?

Why don't you go take a time out in the corner, or at least discuss the article as it is written.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:19:07 PM EDT
Buy Berkshire Hathaway back in the 60s.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:20:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 4:22:49 PM EDT by Local]
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How many gas stations were there in 1896? How much gasoline was produced on an annual basis in the US?

And yet, somehow the infrastructure was developed to support the 10s of millions of cars that drive around every day in this country. Weird.

Magic, I guess.

You're joking, right?

If you're not....well...

The main difference is that your comparing a retro-fit to new system. How much money, time, labor would it take to retrofit every house in the USA with 220?

How much of the same would it take to build new, next-gen "clean coal" power plants?

It's a night and day difference.



Most houses in the US do have 220 already (two 110 phases). Aside from some interior rewiring, like running it into a garage if it isn't already, it's done.

Apartment complexs are another matter. While many do have 220v service for things like dryers, servicing a parking lot would be complex. It's hardly insurmountable, though.

Edit- some areas are closer to 240 then 220. It's still not clear to me where the dividing lines between 110 and 120 are anymore. It's not really significant, but I didn't want some code nazi to get all uppity on me.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:20:45 PM EDT
The grid needs a major overhaul anyway.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:21:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How many gas stations were there in 1896? How much gasoline was produced on an annual basis in the US?

And yet, somehow the infrastructure was developed to support the 10s of millions of cars that drive around every day in this country. Weird.

Magic, I guess.


Please don't use logic here. Any electric cars will appear all at once and be plugged in at the same time without warning. No one will plan for them or appear on the news saying that we need to plan ahead.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:22:13 PM EDT
I work on the "grid"(distribution lineman) let it crash. More job security and overtime for me and my union brothers.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:22:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Strongbow:
SO? Build more grid and nuclear power plants. We have to quit shipping hundreds of billions of dollars overseas every year to feed our oil habit.


yep.. this. with nuclear electric you can make other kinds of energy too.

if i had been obama, first year, only thing i would have done would have been to propose legislation to make amerika energy independent. part of that bill would have been nuclear. i would have tried to work some green stuff in there for the greenies. he might have got some bi-partisan support for something like that too, especially if they pitched it as a national security issue (which it is)..

oh well. takes what, 10 to 20 years these days to bring a new nuke plant on line?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:25:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Local:
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How many gas stations were there in 1896? How much gasoline was produced on an annual basis in the US?

And yet, somehow the infrastructure was developed to support the 10s of millions of cars that drive around every day in this country. Weird.

Magic, I guess.

You're joking, right?

If you're not....well...

The main difference is that your comparing a retro-fit to new system. How much money, time, labor would it take to retrofit every house in the USA with 220?

How much of the same would it take to build new, next-gen "clean coal" power plants?

It's a night and day difference.



Most houses in the US do have 220 already (two 110 phases). Aside from some interior rewiring, like running it into a garage if it isn't already, it's done.

Apartment complexs are another matter. While many do have 220v service for things like dryers, servicing a parking lot would be complex. It's hardly insurmountable, though.

Edit- some areas are closer to 240 then 220. It's still not clear to me where the dividing lines between 110 and 120 are anymore. It's not really significant, but I didn't want some code nazi to get all uppity on me.


Every house I've lived in had 220.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:25:17 PM EDT
start building nuke plants in every state!!!

I want a nuke powered 4X4!!!
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:25:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How many gas stations were there in 1896? How much gasoline was produced on an annual basis in the US?

And yet, somehow the infrastructure was developed to support the 10s of millions of cars that drive around every day in this country. Weird.

Magic, I guess.

You're joking, right?

If you're not....well...

The main difference is that your comparing a retro-fit to new system. How much money, time, labor would it take to retrofit every house in the USA with 220?

How much of the same would it take to build new, next-gen "clean coal" power plants?

It's a night and day difference.



Here's reality:

An uptick in demand enough to overwhelm the ability of the utilities to provide a service will limit the SUPPLY of that service causing the price to increase... which will entice existing companies to fill that demand by expanding service. Or entice new suppliers to enter the market.

I used the gasoline and automobiles analogy to illustrate how absurd it is to think that we're somehow going to have 10% of all vehicles run on electric motors in a short time span. For one thing, no one is going to buy a car that can only go 150 miles on a charge and takes 4 hours to recharge.

But even if such a thing were possible, I have enough confidence in people's desire to make a dollar to provide the service people are willing to pay for. The market works.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:26:33 PM EDT
Do any of you closet Liberals know how much "fuel" you import from overseas?

It's a paltry amount speaking in totalities.

But don't let that get in the way of cheering on your new false God, Al Gore.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:28:36 PM EDT
This thread is full of WTF.

We're fuckin' AMERICA. We are not daunted by technological hurdles. FUCK technological hurdles.

Are we so addicted to oil that we are willing ship hundreds of billions overseas, weaken our economy and weaken our national security so that we don't have to grow a fuckin' clue and change the fuckin' game?

We want a new source of growth.... here it is for fuck's sake! Here's our chance to upgrade America's electrical grid, establish energy security and employ a metric fuckload of people.

And what do we get in GD? Sand in the fuckin' mangina!

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:30:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How many gas stations were there in 1896? How much gasoline was produced on an annual basis in the US?

And yet, somehow the infrastructure was developed to support the 10s of millions of cars that drive around every day in this country. Weird.

Magic, I guess.

You're joking, right?

If you're not....well...

The main difference is that your comparing a retro-fit to new system. How much money, time, labor would it take to retrofit every house in the USA with 220?

How much of the same would it take to build new, next-gen "clean coal" power plants?

It's a night and day difference.



Here's reality:

An uptick in demand enough to overwhelm the ability of the utilities to provide a service will limit the SUPPLY of that service causing the price to increase... which will entice existing companies to fill that demand by expanding service. Or entice new suppliers to enter the market.

I used the gasoline and automobiles analogy to illustrate how absurd it is to think that we're somehow going to have 10% of all vehicles run on electric motors in a short time span. For one thing, no one is going to buy a car that can only go 150 miles on a charge and takes 4 hours to recharge.

But even if such a thing were possible, I have enough confidence in people's desire to make a dollar to provide the service people are willing to pay for. The market works.

Define "short time span". The article says up to 10% of vehicles by 2020 will be electric.

Think you could make it happen in 10 years? Nope, it's not going to happen.


Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:34:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How many gas stations were there in 1896? How much gasoline was produced on an annual basis in the US?

And yet, somehow the infrastructure was developed to support the 10s of millions of cars that drive around every day in this country. Weird.

Magic, I guess.

You're joking, right?

If you're not....well...

The main difference is that your comparing a retro-fit to new system. How much money, time, labor would it take to retrofit every house in the USA with 220?

How much of the same would it take to build new, next-gen "clean coal" power plants?

It's a night and day difference.



Here's reality:

An uptick in demand enough to overwhelm the ability of the utilities to provide a service will limit the SUPPLY of that service causing the price to increase... which will entice existing companies to fill that demand by expanding service. Or entice new suppliers to enter the market.

I used the gasoline and automobiles analogy to illustrate how absurd it is to think that we're somehow going to have 10% of all vehicles run on electric motors in a short time span. For one thing, no one is going to buy a car that can only go 150 miles on a charge and takes 4 hours to recharge.

But even if such a thing were possible, I have enough confidence in people's desire to make a dollar to provide the service people are willing to pay for. The market works.

Define "short time span". The article says up to 10% of vehicles by 2020 will be electric.

Think you could make it happen in 10 years? Nope, it's not going to happen.





Marty McFly is going to steal some little girls hover board in 5 years, if you believe Spielberg. People tend to overestimate the amount of change in the next ten years, and underestimate the amount of change in the next 50.

Whatever the adoption rate is, it will be gradual enough that it won't take anyone by suprise. this article is proof of it- if 10% of cars today were electric we'd be screwed, so we're getting ready for that day. When it comes, we'll be ready.

What exactly is the controversy here?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:34:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By targettarget:
Do any of you closet Liberals know how much "fuel" you import from overseas?

It's a paltry amount speaking in totalities.

But don't let that get in the way of cheering on your new false God, Al Gore.


Bullshit.

We consume over 20,000,000 bbl a day.

We domestically produce less than 6,000,0000.

Do the math... that 14-15,000,000 bbls/day we import.

At, say, $80/bbl, we export $1,160,000,000/day, or $423,400,000,000 every year.

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:35:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Strongbow:
This thread is full of WTF.

We're fuckin' AMERICA. We are not daunted by technological hurdles. FUCK technological hurdles.

Are we so addicted to oil that we are willing ship hundreds of billions overseas, weaken our economy and weaken our national security so that we don't have to grow a fuckin' clue and change the fuckin' game?

We want a new source of growth.... here it is for fuck's sake! Here's our chance to upgrade America's electrical grid, establish energy security and employ a metric fuckload of people.

And what do we get in GD? Sand in the fuckin' mangina!


Take off your rose colored glasses for a second.

Your overlooking the MOST BASIC fact when it comes to new sources of electricity!

It's either COAL, NATURAL GAS or NUCLEAR!

Please, tell me the last time a nuclear power plant was built in the US? Tell me how much red tape there is to get a NEW power plant OF ANY TYPE built?

It's the biggest catch 22 ever. You want electric vehicles, but don't want to generate the electricity for them (or are stopped from doing it by "green" groups and legislation).

Fuck, you guys must live in a bubble thinking that electric vehicles are the fucking answer. It's a croc, a rip-off, A SCAM, and more importantly, electric vehicles will never become a large scale reality in North America because of all the legislation preventing it from happening.


Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:36:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
How many gas stations were there in 1896? How much gasoline was produced on an annual basis in the US?

And yet, somehow the infrastructure was developed to support the 10s of millions of cars that drive around every day in this country. Weird.

Magic, I guess.

You're joking, right?

If you're not....well...

The main difference is that your comparing a retro-fit to new system. How much money, time, labor would it take to retrofit every house in the USA with 220?

How much of the same would it take to build new, next-gen "clean coal" power plants?

It's a night and day difference.



Here's reality:

An uptick in demand enough to overwhelm the ability of the utilities to provide a service will limit the SUPPLY of that service causing the price to increase... which will entice existing companies to fill that demand by expanding service. Or entice new suppliers to enter the market.

I used the gasoline and automobiles analogy to illustrate how absurd it is to think that we're somehow going to have 10% of all vehicles run on electric motors in a short time span. For one thing, no one is going to buy a car that can only go 150 miles on a charge and takes 4 hours to recharge.

But even if such a thing were possible, I have enough confidence in people's desire to make a dollar to provide the service people are willing to pay for. The market works.

Define "short time span". The article says up to 10% of vehicles by 2020 will be electric.

Think you could make it happen in 10 years? Nope, it's not going to happen.




Ok, what do you think will happen if the market demands electric vehicles to such a degree that over the course of the next 10 years, 10% of electric vehicles on the road are electric?

You're saying the ability to expand the electrical infrastructure to support it cannot exist in that time frame?

If that's the case, how could it ever reach 10%? People are just going to start not going to work because of the rolling brownouts that leave their car uncharged? The price of electricity won't go up as it's scarcity increases? The increasing price of electricity won't have an effect on people's decision to buy an electric car? It won't have an effect on the decision to build more power plants?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:36:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 4:40:24 PM EDT by LowBeta]
I did a reasonably informed back-of-the-envelope calculation several years ago and came to a similar conclusion. Basically you need to wire in 30~40% of the energy contained in 1~5 gallons of gas each night. ISTR that we'd be close but okay in most places most of the time, but totally fucked during a heatwave, or cold snap in areas where heatpumps were in widespread use. Definitely a potential problem.

ETA: it's generally more of a local distribution issue (xfmrs, switches, lines, esp. buried feeders) than a generation problem. I don't see so much of a pollution problem because plant scrubbers are probably better than the emissions control systems on most cars.



Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:37:01 PM EDT
Two main points:

1. Of course, if a significant number of people charged their electric car batteries in the middle of the day (especially in the summertime with peak AC demand) the system would crash, as currently contituted. Therefore, incentivize people to charge at night with rates so (relatively) low that you would never voluntarily charge in the daytime. and, as mentioned above, as the demand drove the price up, people would cut back on idling electric demand, lights left on that don't need to be used, shift time to use high draw appliances, etc.

2. I think that it would make sense for people with electric cars to have dedicated photovoltaics to capture solar power and store it for eventual use to top off electric cars. It may not be enough for complete recharge, but if it took the edge off, it probably would make sense. Also, photovoltaics could be switched to inverters with the appropriate wiring to feed into the grid, at least locally. Again, it will not be a complete solution in the short term, but it could ease the transition and give an excuse for getting enough solar capacity to run some emergency circuits (furnace blower motor, refrigerators/freezers, minimal lighting, etc.). If photovoltaics' greatest production occurs in the peak sun of the day, it would also make sense to have them back-feed into the grid during that peak AC demand in the summer.

For that matter, why don't they design high efficiency AC type units that could pull attic heat out to help with the AC load of a typical two story house? Even if you could only take 10-15 degrees off of a 130 degree attic, it couldn't do anything except cut losses from the living spaces and maybe prolong roof life.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:41:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 4:44:36 PM EDT by Drakich]
Originally Posted By BlueJames:
Hydrogen fuel cell is the future, but only the market will decide when the time is right.


What does a hydrogen fuel cell do that an IC engine doesn't do?

NVM, looked it up, higher efficiencies.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:41:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Strongbow:
Originally Posted By targettarget:
Do any of you closet Liberals know how much "fuel" you import from overseas?

It's a paltry amount speaking in totalities.

But don't let that get in the way of cheering on your new false God, Al Gore.


Bullshit.

We consume over 20,000,000 bbl a day.

We domestically produce less than 6,000,0000.

Do the math... that 14-15,000,000 bbls/day we import.

At, say, $80/bbl, we export $1,160,000,000/day, or $423,400,000,000 every year.


I said "overseas", not all imports period.

The fact of the matter is that you get most of the oil you use FROM NORTH AMERICA, and the bulk of the remaining comes from "friendly" countries.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:42:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By new_RRA_user:
Two main points:

1. Of course, if a significant number of people charged their electric car batteries in the middle of the day (especially in the summertime with peak AC demand) the system would crash, as currently contituted. Therefore, incentivize people to charge at night with rates so (relatively) low that you would never voluntarily charge in the daytime. and, as mentioned above, as the demand drove the price up, people would cut back on idling electric demand, lights left on that don't need to be used, shift time to use high draw appliances, etc.

2. I think that it would make sense for people with electric cars to have dedicated photovoltaics to capture solar power and store it for eventual use to top off electric cars. It may not be enough for complete recharge, but if it took the edge off, it probably would make sense. Also, photovoltaics could be switched to inverters with the appropriate wiring to feed into the grid, at least locally. Again, it will not be a complete solution in the short term, but it could ease the transition and give an excuse for getting enough solar capacity to run some emergency circuits (furnace blower motor, refrigerators/freezers, minimal lighting, etc.). If photovoltaics' greatest production occurs in the peak sun of the day, it would also make sense to have them back-feed into the grid during that peak AC demand in the summer.

For that matter, why don't they design high efficiency AC type units that could pull attic heat out to help with the AC load of a typical two story house? Even if you could only take 10-15 degrees off of a 130 degree attic, it couldn't do anything except cut losses from the living spaces and maybe prolong roof life.


2nd part. A attic fan is a whole lot cheaper to run and why A/C in a non insulated part of the house that has insulation on the "floor" to separate it from the house common? Why not heat it in winter to hold more heat in the house also?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:44:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Strongbow:
This thread is full of WTF.

We're fuckin' AMERICA. We are not daunted by technological hurdles. FUCK technological hurdles.

Are we so addicted to oil that we are willing ship hundreds of billions overseas, weaken our economy and weaken our national security so that we don't have to grow a fuckin' clue and change the fuckin' game?

We want a new source of growth.... here it is for fuck's sake! Here's our chance to upgrade America's electrical grid, establish energy security and employ a metric fuckload of people.

And what do we get in GD? Sand in the fuckin' mangina!


Take off your rose colored glasses for a second.

Your overlooking the MOST BASIC fact when it comes to new sources of electricity!

It's either COAL, NATURAL GAS or NUCLEAR!

Please, tell me the last time a nuclear power plant was built in the US? Tell me how much red tape there is to get a NEW power plant OF ANY TYPE built?

It's the biggest catch 22 ever. You want electric vehicles, but don't want to generate the electricity for them (or are stopped from doing it by "green" groups and legislation).

Fuck, you guys must live in a bubble thinking that electric vehicles are the fucking answer. It's a croc, a rip-off, A SCAM, and more importantly, electric vehicles will never become a large scale reality in North America because of all the legislation preventing it from happening.




The alternative is to keep shipping our cash to the mid-east? FUCK THAT. 20 new nuclear reactors are under construction right now. We need to double that at least. And we need to build wind farms, tidal turbines, and solar farms. WE need to quit financing opur enemies just so that we don't have to make hard choices here.

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:45:26 PM EDT
"Dear Lord, please let me see the day come when major cities all over the world are plunged into darkness and chaos of their own making. "


I dont think there is enough popcorn in the world to get me thru the ensuing hilarity

Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:45:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Drakich:
Originally Posted By BlueJames:
Hydrogen fuel cell is the future, but only the market will decide when the time is right.


What does a hydrogen fuel cell do that an IC engine doesn't do?


potentially more efficient, I think.

IC engines are something like 25 or 30 percent energy efficient, right?

I think hydrogen fuel cells are supposed to be in the mid 40s. But I don't know what the overall efficiency drops to after you consider transmission loss and use of the electricity in the electric motor.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:45:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Strongbow:
Originally Posted By targettarget:
Do any of you closet Liberals know how much "fuel" you import from overseas?

It's a paltry amount speaking in totalities.

But don't let that get in the way of cheering on your new false God, Al Gore.


Bullshit.

We consume over 20,000,000 bbl a day.

We domestically produce less than 6,000,0000.

Do the math... that 14-15,000,000 bbls/day we import.

At, say, $80/bbl, we export $1,160,000,000/day, or $423,400,000,000 every year.


I said "overseas", not all imports period.

The fact of the matter is that you get most of the oil you use FROM NORTH AMERICA, and the bulk of the remaining comes from "friendly" countries.


OK "abroad." No offense, but I don't wanna send my cash to the Mexicans or Cannucks either.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:50:44 PM EDT
It all depends on what time of day the cars are plugged in. With time of day metering and special rates for charging cars at night, the current system could probably handle the load just fine.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:56:30 PM EDT
I love talking to environmentalists about electric cars.

"Where does the electricity for the car come from?"

"You plug the car in an outlet."

"And where does the electricity in the outlet come from?"

"The electrical grid."

"And is this electrical grid powered from a coal plant or a nuclear plant?"

"umm.... "
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:56:33 PM EDT
I have always had an irrational hatred for electrical vehicles. I guess its just because i am really insecure so i tend to latch on to issues that make me feel like a super-conservative. Anyway i really like this article. It says that current power grids can not handle a large scale transition to electrical vehicles, which means that NO electrical grid EVER will be able to handle E.V. charging.

validation feels nice
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:56:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 5:04:42 PM EDT by Matthew_Q]
BULLSHIT.


Triple your electrical usage? The average home uses about 1500kWh a month. Triple would be 4500kWh.

Going off of the Volt as an example (which is probably not the most efficient EV), it goes 40 miles on 8kWh of battery power....


That calculates to 15,000 miles to consume 3000kWh of power. I don't even drive 15000 in a YEAR.



Now, if EVERYONE with a gas or diesel powered vehicle went to the nearest gas station and purchased a FULL tank of gas RIGHT NOW, we'd suck many gas stations dry. The fact that demand is spread out prevents this from happening. The same would happen with electric cars, also factoring in that most would charge overnight when demand is low, but capacity is generally the same.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 4:56:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BlueJames:
Hydrogen fuel cell is the future, but only the market will decide when the time is right.


Does a Hydrogen engine combust?
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 5:00:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2010 5:10:46 PM EDT by Badlatitude]
What planet are theese retards from who come up with this shit? How are you going to tell me charging 12v DC batteries draws more 110v load than a house normally does? Why is it our battery charger on 200amp doesnt send the genset screaming when we charge the batteries of the drag car between rounds yet a SINGLE AC unit does.

I call epic* bullshit to the 10th power.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 5:02:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Vicinity:
Originally Posted By BlueJames:
Hydrogen fuel cell is the future, but only the market will decide when the time is right.


Does a Hydrogen engine combust?


No. hydrogen and oxygen is combined in some kind of magic membrane. The result is electricity, and water or water vapor byproduct.

I disagree about it being the wave of the future though. I think we will solve battery/ capacitor powered EV problems (battery life, charge time, grid ect) before we will solve the problems of creating a safe hydrogen "grid," hydrogen storage in cars, and mega large scale production/collection.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 5:04:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Vicinity:
Originally Posted By BlueJames:
Hydrogen fuel cell is the future, but only the market will decide when the time is right.


Does a Hydrogen engine combust?


Not a hydrogen fuel cell.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 5:05:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Badlatitude:
What fucking planet are theese retards from who come up with this shit? How are you going to tell me charging 12v DC batteries draws more 110v load than a house normally does? Why is it our battery charger on 200amp doesnt send the genset screaming when we charge the batteries of the drag car between rounds yet a SINGLE AC unit does.

I call epic* bullshit to the 10th power.



Cars won't be using 12v lead acid batteries, for one. See my calculations above to see how much bullshit the article in the OP is full of.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 5:05:55 PM EDT
Hurr durr. Nobody could see that coming.
Link Posted: 9/14/2010 5:06:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattsd:
Originally Posted By Vicinity:
Originally Posted By BlueJames:
Hydrogen fuel cell is the future, but only the market will decide when the time is right.


Does a Hydrogen engine combust?


No. hydrogen and oxygen is combined in some kind of magic membrane. The result is electricity, and water or water vapor byproduct.

I disagree about it being the wave of the future though. I think we will solve battery/ capacitor powered EV problems (battery life, charge time, grid ect) before we will solve the problems of creating a safe hydrogen "grid," hydrogen storage in cars, and mega large scale production/collection.


Oh. Do not want. I'll stick with gasoline, it seems to do well for me.
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 4
Top Top