Ready for this?

Remember that agonizing thread I started a while back about Women Pastors?
Here's how this played out...

I did suffer a period of spiritual turmoil earlier this year; I called it a "Jesus Crisis".
While my Faith didn't slack off, my understanding of things really took a beating.
I weathered the storm.

I searched for a church that would serve my beliefs and came up with one to try.
My wife and kids had been attending a Lutheran church, ELCA, with a woman pastor.
Didn't agree with me, so I took my wife to an offshoot of the Lutheran church, the Missouri synod.
This was very difficult for her and she was emotionally wracked and actually cried like someone had died, namely her establishment in the church she'd been attending.
I told her we'd go to her church the next week (today).
It was a good thing we went.  It was good to attend a church as a family.  My kids were glad Dad was there and my wife was visibly more comfortable there.
While I agree with the Missouri synods choice to not ordain women as the pastor, I think the most important thing for my family is that Dad be there.
I like the woman pastor, and will still adhere to my core belief about the roles Men and Women have in the church.
It was a good feeling to go and we'll be going there as a family.
Sometimes, a Man has to do what a Man has to do, and keep the family first and foremost.

Do you think I'm making the right choice?

So, you're compromising your beliefs to keep your family happy?

I'm not a father, but my father sure was. Once in a while a guy has to put his foot down, and this might be one of those times. Then again for you maybe it's not. Personally I would not attend a church which practices things that contradict my belief simply for the sake of familial harmony.

The problem with doing that as I see it is, how far are you going to take it? If your wife decides she's happier worshipping Krishna than Christ, are you gonna start chanting Hare Krishna to keep her happy?

You might want to sit down and talk (and pray) about this with your wife; in the end that's a WHOLE lot more important and gonna accomplish far more than talking about it with some strangers here on AR15.com. Perhaps she doesn't understand how important this is to you, and maybe if she did she'd be more understanding of your wishes.

I second what maelcum said.  The bible is clear that there is one thing greater than family:  God.  I am a young single man so I have never been in your situation...but I can certainly understand that it must be difficult.  What you are facing is one more reminder to find the church you agree with first and then find a woman who believes the same (and probably attends that very church).

The bible also makes it clear that the father must be the spiritual leader of the family.



If you remember, this is similar to what happened to Solomon.  His wives brought him down by enticing him away from God.



Not only does she maybe not "understand how important this is to you," it sounds like she doesn't understand how important this is for herself and your children.  I encourage you to take maelcum's advice and beseech God for guidance (and make your wife a part of the process by having her pray for truth and help as well).  Also I don't know how much you've studied the missouri synod.  I am not too familiar with them, but you may want to study them (and other denominations as well) thoroughly so you have more of a reason to switch than just "they don't have women pastors."  If you have several reasons (and maybe you already do, I don't know) then it may be easier for your wife to understand.  From the little I know of ELCA it is fairly PC which I don't think is ever a good thing in a church...so it may be easy to point out things that are wrong with it.  Besides missouri synod, you may also wish to look at evangelical free churches (it's not affiliated with lutherans in any way) as I have had good luck with them.

I don't want to be harsh, I am just trying to be helpful.  I realize it would difficult to be in your position.  But remember, Jesus himself said he would bring divisiveness to families.

As long as your devotion to god remains and your core beliefs are not attacked then yes. As long as you like the new pastor and she follows traditional methods and teachings you are used to, a woman pastor in my mind would make little differnace.Looking at the thing as a whole, it is a win-win situation.

I know what you are going through as my fiance and I have been to many churches to find the right one and it is hard. I have ever only found 2 that I felt really comfortable in. The caliber of people who attend, I feel, is important as well.

BrenLover

I did not go to church today....I shot an IPSC match and had a great time.

You have been given some good advise here.  I graduated from the seminary that was the first in the US to train women pastors.  If you know the Bible and Theology you also know not all is of equal importance and direct value.  This is not to say it is not true.  
Honestly, how far down on the theological ladder would you place Ecclesiology?  It certainly would neither be as important as Christology nor Theology.  Your core beliefs are in no way harmed, I think.

If Jesus had wanted female preachers He would have chosen a few women to be His Disciples.

And don't give me the line that He would not have wanted to offend Jewish sensibilities and traditions by picking out women!

Jesus was [u]all[/u] [u]about[/u] offending Jewish sensibilities and traditions!

Sorry, but if you wish to question [b]why[/b] God wished to reveal Himself to His people as a Father, and [b]why[/b] He chose the figure of a Son through which to reveal Himself, you will just have to ask Him when you see Him in the next world!

But, frankly, with [u]that[/u] kind of attitude, I doubt that you even get to see Him in the next world![:D]

Eric The(MuchLessAskAnyQuestionsOfHim!)Hun[>]:)]

Same here, or almost. It was a practical rifle match, and I did ok.

Mal...

Can you email me your rules for practical??

I am going to host our first one this summer and I am trying to develop some workable rules.


Some I see are WAYYY to strict


Some are scary!

Post from Bybon -

Ladder?

Eric The(WhatLadder?)Hun[>]:)]

Yeah. Nekkid(WhatTheHunGuySaid)80

This is too weird of a coincidence to pass up...

The rules are clear, strict or not.
However, if you know attending is the most important thing, then you'll seek somewhere the rules are acceptable to you.
It's better to find a place to go than not go at all.

Whether it's going to church as a family or getting my wife to go shooting with me, we've got to go together.


The comment about "serving my beliefs" may not have been the best way to put it.  I mean there is my concept according to what Scripture says and that's what I believe to be correct.
It may "serve" me better (coincide with my family's need to go to church) to go ahead and attend church with my family at this time.

Going is the important part; where and why may change down the road.
I see waiting or refusing to go as "idle hands" and that's not good.
My views are clear to all who know me (and the cast of thousands out there who don't...).
My decision to 'capitulate' is what is best for my family.
God knows me and my heart and I trust Him to guide us to wherever He wants us to be.
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step, so LOCK AND LOAD, BABY!!!" [;D]

...edited because:
I just spoke with my wife after I wrote this (and she hadn't read it yet).
She confirmed that if I insisted, she would indeed change churches, albeit with trepidation and uncertainty.
Nice to know 'capitulation' goes both ways, but,
I won't rock her world to that degree.  It's pointless to force that level of uncomfortability.  Counterproductive.
She also mentioned the fact that down the road we may end up going elswhere.
I see the best resolution is to go where she and the kids are established until which point a change is required.
I'm confident enough in my "MANHOOD" and in 'being right with God' to begin the thousand mile journey with this first step.
We will walk together.

I Timothy 2:12  "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

I Timothy 3:1 "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he disireth a good work,"

I Timothy 3:2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hispitality, apt to teach;"

A Bishop is the same as a preacher.

It's pretty clear

Sorry, folks, no Bishops (as most other religions define them) in the Lutheran Church.  While there are Pastors and other administrative ranks, but they are no "holier" than Joe Parishioner.

"Back in the Day", women did not have the social and legal standing tha they have now.  I do not believe that recognizing women as Pastors somehow undermines my faith in Jesus.

Whether you are a woman or a man, If you can help me gain a greater understanding of my religion, I'll support you.

We may be at the point that women are going to be a big percentage of the Preacher Corp. from supply and demand alone.  

There are not many denominations who aren't really scrambling to fill pulpits.  The interest and dedication has changed.  Most of the wives have jobs, and some of them don't want to give them up.  Wives, spouses, are not happy with the old tradition that you hire the preacher and along with him you get a pianist, janitor, Sunday School teacher, and a few other titles.

Some of the Missouri Lutheran Churches are not always of what you would call Christian love.

They promote only their own:

Friend had to get married in Catholic church because Luth. Minis. would not marry any one other than Missouri Luth.  This was a family who was always active and also generous in dollars for the church.  Church had received its last check and they joined another Luth. church.

Same goes for funerals.  They refuse to bury a person if he's not a member.  It can be a close relative of a prominent and faithful member, sis. or bro. for example, and it makes no difference.  Then they wonder why the money is severally reduced, or cut off.

Look too for women to take a more active roll as governing participants.  The women outlive the men and so who has the money??  As the younger ones move into place, look for them not to be satisfied with traditional roles.

Our Lord Jesus Christ said that the whole world is HIS church. What does a building have to do with your faith? As far as a pastor goes, doesnt the gospel say something about Jesus writing HIS gospel in the hearts of the people? You know, Love thy GOD and thy neighbor, as you would thyself? You are your own pastor. The only thing anybody else can do for you, is try to tell you whats in your own heart.

yeah you did the right thing. no church is going to be picture perfect and some times you just have to roll with the punches.

to me there is nothing like the love of a good woman. it is the only other thing that I even hold near my beleifs. although god is higher on my list, a woman who you love is really high up there. even guns aren't even that high on my list but I guess I am a romantic type sap. personally I think you live happier that way though.

Ummm, WRONG!  [;)]

I grew up Lutheran, and our family pastor went on to become a Bishop of the Indiana~Kentucky Synod.

I have no problem expressing my opinions on this site – informed or not, popular or not. But I sure don't have the balls that some of you guys do.

Based on precious little information, I wouldn't dare to come down so heavy, one side or another with opinions and uncompromising advice that may have a direct effect on this member's family relationship.

As an aetheist, not only do I have no dog in this fight, I don't really understand the issue, and yes, I know BushMaster007 asked for advice – but are any of us are in a position to do that and take responsibility for the outcome?

stcyr -"As an aetheist, not only do I have no dog in this fight, I don't really understand the issue, and yes, I know BushMaster007 asked for advice – but are any of us are in a position to do that and take responsibility for the outcome? "

Well, he either goes to church and gets saved, because something clicks inside of him, or he does nothing (like you) and burns in hell.  I think since he asked for the advice, there is nothing wrong in using the bible to help him.  

Wolfamongsheep, I guess you go to the Holy Ghost Invisible Church.  I believethe bible does give us instructions about going to church.  Hebrews 10:25 "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day aproaching."

I would give into the wife on this one, but I think women can and should be pastors.

What is a good reason for women not to be pastors, other than the Bible?

RTA,

I was brought-up and educated in a very religious family – then something "clicked" in me. I did not, as you assume, decide to do nothing. In fact, I did make a serious and very difficult decision to do something – become an atheist. And, if you think about it, that is far harder than remaining a Christian.

You assumed way too much about me – because you have so little information. I don't mind your ignorant slurs, but in the case of BushMaster007, you don't have any more information. Yet you feel justified in jumping to conclusions and offering uninformed insights that can effect a family's future.

You better be damned sure you're right. If not, you'd better have something other than your self-righteous opinion and a book to hide behind!

Oh I think I have enough information about you.  But for the sake of not getting this post locked, I won't post them.  

STCRY said"your self-righteous opinion and a book to hide behind?"   I'm not hiding behind any book, I am proudly proclaiming the truth, (Bible).  Believe me when I say I am not hiding behind it.  

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise they became fools,

Does this even need an answer? If his religion is centered around Christ and the bible,I admit ignorance on the Lutheran church, as seems to be the case, then I think the Bible is the only reason he needs. The only other consideration is his position on the issue, which should be derrived from  the Bible.

Quote RTA –
"Oh I think I have enough information about you. But for the sake of not getting this post locked, I won't post them." end quote.

Since you are (I gather) a devout Christian, I would expect you to reveal to this site whatever information you feel revelant and able to substanciate about me. I actively invite you to do so – I certainly would have no problem.

Whatever relevant "information" you have about me, feel free to post it – and I would ask any moderator to recognize that I have freely requested any such (substanciated) information to be posted by our devout Christian brother and completely absolve this site and its of officers from all/any consequences.

BTT – I personally don't give a F*ck about your religioius sensibilities. I DO CARE about a man who has a serious issue to resolve. However you – GOOD CHRISTIANS ALL – are willing to jeopardize a man's family relationship to promote YOUR OPINION. And, by means of support, you do not offer your own ideas, based on experience – for then you might have to called to account and held responsible for what you tell BushMaster007!

No, f*ck that kind of responsibility! You are just the gutless wordjockeys that immediately grasp at nothing more substancial than some old script to support whatever you tell some other guy what to do.

The fact that you believe it all (chapter and verse; word for word) does not give you the right to spout your dogmatic opinions and advice to anybody but yourselves! Nor does it absolve you from the consequences!

That was the point I was originally trying to make: IMHO, when it comes to issues that involve a man's family, while you or I, or any member should be free to suggest things, WE SHOULD NOT BE SO DOGMATIC when doing so! Especially when we have such little information to rely upon and there is a man's wife and kids' future relationship at stake.

As regards to hiding behind a book – that's EXACTLY what you are doing (again) with your Roman's quote.

Finally, mindful of the Lord's edicts about bearing false witness against thy neighbor – f*cking put up or f*cking shut up you wretched little man!

I can see this hit rock bottom.  Were all those asteriks ignorant slurs?

Look, you said "I have no problem expressing my opinions on this site – informed or not, popular or not. " so why do you have a problem with someone else expressing their opinions.

As for the "Oh I think I have enough information about you. " that I posted, I was referring to your religious beliefs and what the bible states about them which is what I believe, and we are not Christian brothers, because you are an atheist.  

When you posted "As an aetheist, not only do I have no dog in this fight, I don't really understand the issue, " you were right, you don't understand the issue.

You also wrote "and yes, I know BushMaster007 asked for advice ", which he did, and which I, in an earlier post, quoted scripture, which apparently you found offensive.    

You also wrote "but are any of us are in a position to do that and take responsibility for the outcome?"  Well If quoting bible and upsets you so much maybe you ought not read the posts, or respond to them.

Let me see if I understand this.  You (an atheist)are mad at me (a Christian) for giving another Christian information out of the bible??

Get real.

I'm a man of few words when more is a surfeit – BULLSHIT!

For God's sake man, don't you realize the difference between offering advice about AK's and AR15's, and a man's relationship with his family?

In BushMastere007's case neither you (nor I ) can afford to be wrong! You being able to spout bits from he Bible to defend your position doesn't mean a thing if this man's family breaks up! It just gives you solice.

I respectfully suggest that YOU get real sunshine and stick your bible were it don't!

I'll be damned if you dim-witted christians don't show far less understanding than some hethen, atheist like me!

This thread is frayed... [;D]

I thought it got buried and just found it again on page 2.

Let me clarify something:

[b]I[/b] am responsible for my family's well being in this regard.
[b]I[/b] made the decision to go with them.
No one else is accountable for my actions.
No one else has brought me to this conclusion.

I asked for and recieved insight and opinions.
I appreciate the responses.

The Devil is in the details...as they say.
[flame]
No sense in trashing anyone on this.
The decision has been made.
I'm comfortable with it and my wife and kids are happy.
THAT is the first step.
Here we go!

Thanks again.

edited to say: Now, let's bury it.[xx(]  RIP.

I asked God if he wanted me to go to Church or go hang out, have fun, and look for a new truck.  I asked that if he prefer to me to go out and do those things to give no sign.  

...and yea there was not a sign delivered unto me from God, and therily, i found a new truck for mine own...  thy will be done Lord [}:D]

Best of luck to you in your decision. I hope all works out for the best, as I am sure it will.

Being a family is one thing...the experiences in church will stay with your kids thier whole life, and greatly affect thier belief when they are older.....the church is a family decision....what you do with your own faith is still your own relationship with Christ....your faith can travel its own road...regardless of the church you attend.........ignore the small minds that choose to interject thier ignorance here...........[:)]

LOL!!!

The irony of that statement is just KILLIN' me!!!  [:D]


I mean, don't let the Bible get in the way of your religion!!!!!


YEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

ANOTHER religion thread...(sigh)...  [red]Religion's a bunch of CRAP![/red]There have been two many people KILLED in the name of religion.Maybe I'm mistaken but,I thought all religions taught not to kill.Roman Catholic Church is the largest land owning,tax free ""INSTITTUTION"" in the world.What happened to poverty and chastity.When I was young the same church refered to us as its sheep or flock....THINK ABOUT IT.And they always NEED more collections of MONEY!...The larger the flock the larger the $$ intake,they are a business same as the government....[:\]...face it the human has the want/need to believe when he dies theres something else and these "religions" play on that.WHEN YOU DIE YOUR DEAD!

LMAO.

I was raised in a very religious family but have long since drifted away. I have found preachers to be largely effeminate and narcissistic, churches to be too often full of hypocrites who will stab you in the back on any other day of the week. Still have my beliefs and know the Bible well-not much time to read it anymore, however.
Would never attend a church with a woman preacher just as I would not vote for one to hold political office. Maybe that makes me a sexist. Maybe not. Sure doesn't seem to bother my wife any.
As for the original question: you have to do what is right for you and your family. Why are you asking us, anyhow?

Women are poorly suited for positions of leadership. Don't think I need to expound on that.

which is more important, message or messenger?

Both. Would you listen to the devil if he read you the Bible?

djarhead?

My wife who I love dearly would like to know when you would be available to "discuss" this concept further!!

That has got to be one of the stupidest statements I have ever read......

And trust me I have read many a stupid statement here......heck I have even authored some.

]

About what I'd expect from members of a socialist state. I'll discuss it with her when she comes to WI. How far away are you?
The fact that your wife buys into liberal drivel from dyke-led feminist organizations means nothing to me. The fact that you buy into it means even less-grow some buddy. Have long since felt that most of you Cannuck "men" long ago gave up your manhood. Seeing it here to thanks to the same feminazi groups. Pathetic.

TAKE CANADA NOW!!!!

Edited to add: If I wanted someone to nag me today I would have married somebody like your wife![+]:D]

JESUS H FUKIN CHRIST MAN!!


What exactly are you smoking down there!!
Did you roll your own using bible paper??


Liberal?? My wife??

LOL

Socialist???

Dyke lead!!


Feminazi!!




LOL
LOL
HAHAHAHA


You are spun there is NO other way to put it!!


Edited to add that I am about 12 hours from  WI.....

My wife will be home watching the kids like the good little feminazi she is.....If I am able to make it that is.

Scripturally, in order to be a pastor, the individual should be "the husband of one wife."

HOW EXACTLY DOES A WOMAN DO THAT????

And no, Go is NOT commanding that all pastors be dykes. [rolleyes]

Stormbringer, glad you had a good laugh. I know I LMFAO while typing it. Damn, I had to keep making corrections I was laughing so fucking hard.

See ya when you get here.

PS. I don't smoke. The Surgeon General has determined that it is hazardous to my health.

You guys won't believe what happened to me last week. I was walking through the Mall, checking out the Ninjas and someone big tall blonde called my name. "Doc. Hey Doc, is that you?"
I turned, astonished. "Harry? Damn, Harry what the hell did you do?"
"I got a sex change operation. I'm much happier now."
"Geez", I exclaimed, "that must of hurt like hell."
"Yeeaahh, It was pretty bad. By the way my name is Cindy now."
"Well, what was the worst part", I asked. "Was it when they cut you dick off?"
"No, that was rough but that wasn't the worst part", stated Cindy.
"Well, was it when they took a scalpel and cut out a vagina?"
"Ouch" said Cindy. "Don't remind me. That wasn't the worst part though."
"Damn, what could be worse than that?"
"To tell you the truth the worst part was when they stuck that tube in my ear and sucked my brain out." I didn't ask but I think Cindy lives in Montreal now.

Badumpbump.

in this particular case i would focus entirely on the nature of the message.

i am confident that "devils" have cited the bible often, but i try not to let that detract from it's contents.