Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 4/14/2002 9:42:23 AM EDT
After reading the thread over at HKPro started by SorryOciffer, I have decided to have my account deleted. Here is the thread that I have started [url]http://boards.hkpro.com/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=002280[/url] Here is the thread here on AR15.com about the incident. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=108904[/url]
ATF monitors this site, as they should. Black guns are offered for sale here. I willingly will assist them in the prosecution of any who break the law, however they personally interpret it...... HKPro
View Quote
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 9:43:59 AM EDT
I gotta sign up, first... Scott
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 10:09:41 AM EDT
I toldem to can mine. Nothing there I cant get here and more anyway. Forgive me for I have strayed.[0:)] BrenLover
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 11:05:50 AM EDT
Man, those people over at HKpro are a bunch of mindless morons!
Good for HKpro. I would personally assist any law enforcement agencies too. I alwasy thought Hk pro was a place where Law abiding HK owners came. Schapman you need to grow up. Jchilders
View Quote
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 11:35:15 AM EDT
Personally, I agree with Tom's stance. First off Tom's LE, what the hell do you expect him to do? Second, if a fellow here was posting illegal MGs conversions and 'how to make bombs' threads, don't you think that Goatboy and the owners of the site would assist IF the BATF came calling? If you don't, you're kidding yourself. Enough with the whiney baby "Goodbye" threads, I can't stand them here, and I can't stand them on HKPro...
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 12:03:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 12:06:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 12:16:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawkeye1: I agree. But, there is a bit of difference in mags that arent illegal and MG conversions or explosives. I just dont like the feeling that someone is trying to set me up.
View Quote
You're joking right? I've been a member since the days of the old HKPro board, it's been several years. I doubt that Tom is collecting names for the ATF, so that he can bust everyone this summer at the big HKPro shoot. Sure BATF monitors HKPro.com, they also monitor AR15.com. Tom has no say in the matter. He didn't invite them, and they won't leave if he askes them to. As far as the mags, Tom doesn't want them sold on his board so he can avoid this matter completely. If noone deals in the questionable mags on his board, he will never have to testify in court over the matter. I think some of you are confusing a "cover your ass" standpoint (Tom's) as a anti-gun or a pro-BATF standpoint.
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 12:25:06 PM EDT
ummm, i'm an LEO also, but i'm not gonna run and and tell the ATF shit i read on a board.(fuck the feds anyhow) christ, that's like the little kid in class "teacher, teacher, HE was talking" sometimes you have to choose sides, and when you're amongst friends, the badge is on another shirt, sometimes you're deaf and blind. (terrorist plots to kill people and shit like that on the other hand, will cause me to question whether or not i need to be around certaqin places) my .02.
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 12:26:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HKocher: I think some of you are confusing a "cover your ass" standpoint (Tom's) as a anti-gun or a pro-BATF standpoint.
View Quote
I would hope you are correct and that Tom is only posturing for the powers that be, but what if he is dead serious? Is it worth staying on a board that has just made it clear that anything that could be construed as illegal will be reported and you'll hear a knock on your door? I think you have a good idea in protesting and leaving, you are making complete sense. Sometimes gun owners should be a little paranoid about who they talk to, especially when that person just made it clear that noone is safe.
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 12:35:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By quietshoez: ummm, i'm an LEO also, but i'm not gonna run and and tell the ATF shit i read on a board.(fuck the feds anyhow) christ, that's like the little kid in class "teacher, teacher, HE was talking" sometimes you have to choose sides, and when you're amongst friends, the badge is on another shirt, sometimes you're deaf and blind. (terrorist plots to kill people and shit like that on the other hand, will cause me to question whether or not i need to be around certaqin places) my .02.
View Quote
I hear you. Again I believe some folks aren't reading into this far enough. The author's of these threads are simply trying to stir up the shit (I believe we call it trolling around here), and taking Tom's quotes out of context. I find it amusing that these 'members' of HKPro who I have never seen around are suddenly popping up and screaming "I'm leaving!!!". Tom never said that he is in the business of turning in those who violate the law on his board. I believe that his statement reads to knock off the talk because the BATF monitors the site. I imagine most gunboard owners would have to assist the ATF if they were cornered about the issue.
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 12:39:47 PM EDT
If you've never seen me around there, you've never been there.
Tom never said that he is in the business of turning in those who violate the law on his board.
View Quote
Actually, he did say that. And I don't need a 3AM knock because he 'thought' something I had was illegal. QS
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 12:45:11 PM EDT
Yeah, I'm such a [:k]. I originally went over there to ask a question about having a smith take a 91 and grafting on a 21 front end to get the QC barrel. However when i read the policy it struck me as odd so I post a "Why" question, then another post in another area about the 91/21. Well not to long after, the same night after this started my "legal" post disapeared from the rifle forum. You guys KNOW what kind of trouble maker I am.[rolleyes] I have never trolled ANY site and dont intend to. "My Momma always said HKPro is like a box of chocolates, ya never know what your gonna get."
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 12:50:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: If you've never seen me around there, you've never been there. Actually, he did say that. And I don't need a 3AM knock because he 'thought' something I had was illegal.
View Quote
I wasn't refering to you. And again I disagree with your interpretation of Tom's statement, but I doubt we'll resolve that anytime soon.
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 12:52:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SorryOciffer: Yeah, I'm such a [:k]. I originally went over there to ask a question about having a smith take a 91 and grafting on a 21 front end to get the QC barrel. However when i read the policy it struck me as odd so I post a "Why" question, then another post in another area about the 91/21. Well not to long after, the same night after this started my "legal" post disapeared from the rifle forum. You guys KNOW what kind of trouble maker I am.[rolleyes] I have never trolled ANY site and dont intend to. "My Momma always said HKPro is like a box of chocolates, ya never know what your gonna get."
View Quote
Fine, you're not a troll if you say so. However, I still feel that it's a bit strange that someone relatively new with few posts would start up a thread on a obviously hot topic (that has been beat to death many times over), and then come over to another board, and post the links and invite others join the fray.
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 1:15:21 PM EDT
If "Tom" were not such an ass, then people would not be so quick to get in line against him.
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 1:35:06 PM EDT
As long as the gun-owning community fights with itself over petty little crap and has brand-religon wars the anti-gunners will keep notching away at our rights. Declaring war against another pro-gun site for following the law is so counter-productive it's not funny.
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 1:47:06 PM EDT
Damn right I say so. Add about another 4-500 and it would be more accurate as I was M16 man before SorryOciffer. Sorry if I have a life outside of the web so I cant match your post count. The combination of "logic" and my post being deleted pissed me off at first. I had heard in the past about "HKPro Snobbery" but had nothing really to base it on as I rarely went there. Then Bammo, 1st night there I get into a pissing match and have a non-relevant post zapped. Because I can count on one hand the number of times I've been there before I did not know that the certain HK mags were "touchy", jeeze, I'm such a dick for not reading EVERy post before I join a site. I'm also not encouraging anyone to quit going there, each person will decide that. I wanted people to see the sillyness of the situation. If Tom is so rightous and fair have him give his side if he sees fit and quit being his public defender. I told him he can delete my account if he sees fit because I will not post there again unless I was to see a shift in attitude. Since this is unlikely, I doubt you'll have to worry about it. BrenLover - Not a troll on FNFAL.com, Assaultweb.net, AR15.com, Battlerifles.com or ak-47.net except for HKPro.com, which I singled out for my diabolical plan to ruin gun-boards the world over! (insert maniancal laugh in background)[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 2:56:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SorryOciffer: Damn right I say so. Add about another 4-500 and it would be more accurate as I was M16 man before SorryOciffer. Sorry if I have a life outside of the web so I cant match your post count. BrenLover - Not a troll on FNFAL.com, Assaultweb.net, AR15.com, Battlerifles.com or ak-47.net except for HKPro.com, which I singled out for my diabolical plan to ruin gun-boards the world over! (insert maniancal laugh in background)[rolleyes]
View Quote
Fine by me. High post count doesn't equal no-troll. Besides I never said you were an AR15.com troll, but you appear to be an HKPro troll. But since you relinquished your membership, I don't have to see you over there anymore. I can live with that.
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 7:27:11 PM EDT
Uh, this isn't the thread that SorryOciffer started. He is just commenting on it. On his thread, I don't recall him asking others to follow him off of HKPro. Scott
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 7:35:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/14/2002 8:16:26 PM EDT
Well ya know what pissed me off was that my other post was deleted because of my opposition to the policy. Had that not happened I would have gotten over the policy and moved on. How would you like it if because you and a webmaster had a dissagreement they just deleted another post of yours as punishment? THAT's what set me of. Can you not see that that was wrong? If I was a phucking troll I would stay on that site and cause more dissention. I posted my experience here because this is the gun site I spend the most time on and wanted others to be aware of how things appear to be done over there. If that makes me a troll by your definition fine but I dont think it does in most peoples mind. As far as asking for my account to be deleted, it was my last action there and was made to cement my show of displeasure. As far as petty arguments causeing seperation and dissention in the ranks of gun owners, I dont think it will be much of a problem if they revolve around issues such as these. Even though HKocker, Brouhaha, and I dissagree on this issue I would still due all I could in any given situation to preserve the firearms rights of all persons. I'm not THAT petty. BrenLover
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 2:22:51 AM EDT
I personally don't care because I never post there but here's my take: Tom says: "ATF monitors this site, as they should. Black guns are offered for sale here." Hatebreed says: As they should? Should the ATF even exist in a country with a second ammendment? And zoinks, BLACK GUNS are offered for sale here? Oohh, better run and get momma, someone could get hurt!
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 10:15:28 AM EDT
Well the HK Nazi's deleted my thread. I've had posts last longer on Democratic Underground. Guess they dont like anyone that has views other than their own.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 2:22:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By schapman43: Well the HK Nazi's deleted my thread. I've had posts last longer on Democratic Underground. Guess they dont like anyone that has views other than their own.
View Quote
Your post got yanked because it was not HK related, as per the guidelines. There's nothing personal about it. As far as the Nazi comments, Tom asked the members (on a couple of occasions) what format they wished to see on the board. An overwhelming number (90%+) voted to keep the discussion ALL HK. It doesn't get a whole lot more democratic than that. If you disagree with the concept of ALL HK discussion, I understand, but there are plenty of other boards available for general talk and general gun talk. Hell, I've gotten at least half a dozen threads yanked at HKPro, but I never made a fuss over it. And if you've never gotten a thread yanked over here at AR15.com, well than, you just aren't trying hard enough![;)] Anyway, I have to respect your stance, although I disagree with it and I disagree with the manner in which you 'resolved' the issue. In the end, I can't change your decision to leave HKPro, and you can't change my views on Tom and his board. So we'll just agree to disagree and move on with our AR15.com lives.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 3:26:11 PM EDT
Okay, here is my NEW take, after eading all the threads several times. I believe that this Tom fellow (who I have NEVER met) meant to say that as long as the company who made the guns say there are NO legal standard capacity magazines for their guns, it is kind of hard to win that court case. Pick your battles, in other words. If an expert working for H&K testifies "There are no magazines for our firearm that were made before the spetember 1994 ban", then you will probably lose that court case. And let's not forget that the Foxtrot Bravo India apparently closed down a CHEVROLET MOTOR ENTHUSIASTS site during the 2000 presidential elections, because of what a person posted there... Scott P.S. That being said, I can see people being uncomfortable enough to stop posting there. Maybe some people just feel offended by the extent of protest made on this site. Let's all just [beer] and have a nice week...
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 3:45:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2002 3:47:26 PM EDT by SIX]
Personally, I am done with HKPro. I asked for "Tom's" explanation of his comment on [i]however they personally interpret it[/i] Tom portrays himself as an officier of the law. For such an indivdual to make such a statement and not explain it is real damm scary. He knows damm well about the separation of powers - it is not his nor any other LEA's job to [i]interpret[/i] the law. I asked for an explanation - politely, and was blown off. I'm gone.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 6:09:24 PM EDT
Yes, I think it's the "however they personally interpret it" comment that struck me as odd. If that line weren't in his respone, I would not have given it a second thought.
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 6:59:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Minman72:
Originally Posted By HKocher: I think some of you are confusing a "cover your ass" standpoint (Tom's) as a anti-gun or a pro-BATF standpoint.
View Quote
I would hope you are correct and that Tom is only posturing for the powers that be, but what if he is dead serious? Is it worth staying on a board that has just made it clear that anything that could be construed as illegal will be reported and you'll hear a knock on your door? I think you have a good idea in protesting and leaving, you are making complete sense. Sometimes gun owners should be a little paranoid about who they talk to, especially when that person just made it clear that noone is safe.
View Quote
Does anyone know, is there a forum-focused version of Carnivore for webservers?
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 8:08:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SIX: Personally, I am done with HKPro. I asked for "Tom's" explanation of his comment on [i]however they personally interpret it[/i] Tom portrays himself as an officier of the law. For such an indivdual to make such a statement and not explain it is real damm scary. He knows damm well about the separation of powers - it is not his nor any other LEA's job to [i]interpret[/i] the law. I asked for an explanation - politely, and was blown off. I'm gone.
View Quote
Again, that's too bad. Maybe you should head back over there before you make that decision. Tom has since explained himself in much detail. Hell, the guy runs a free (for the users) gunsite and he works his butt off in his PD. If you expect him to respond to every member in a personal email, that's a little too much to ask from a guy providing a FREE service...
Link Posted: 4/15/2002 8:11:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/15/2002 8:12:04 PM EDT by HKocher]
In case anyone on the F- Tom bandwagon cares, here's his response on HKPro:
I will gladly explain my position further, but I have moved the posts to the admin room. Want to read them all closely. Don't have time right now to comment before work. Let me just say that I believe I was misinterpreted big time. The two who decided to do this have been given what they want. I guess I am most hurt in the way this was done. Kinda like you arrive to the office one day, and someone whom you have pissed off with a management decision is standing in front of the entire work force with a megaphone telling them what an a**hole you are, without the slightest bit of personal consultation, or in this case, an simple email asking for clarification. Anyway, I will comment in further detail tonight, you can respond, (except the two) then we'll move on. Fair enough?
View Quote
and finally...
This has truly worn me down today. I don't have the energy for a long post. 1. I am not in any kind of contact with ATF, have not ever been approached, and have not approached them. 2. Willingly means cooperatively, not joyfully, gladly, gleefully. 3. Those who staged "grand exits" like Schapman (with two more encore performances after his first post stating it was his last, along with his invitation for others to join him) got their wishes. 4. Bummed that Quietshooter with 267 posts drew hard on the Nazi BS, without any request for clarification from me. Assumed he now knows my "true colors." Really saddened and disappointed and offended by this. 5. Another one made a Nazi crack about me. Banned without further hesitation. Go back and read the rules on this folks. My position has never changed. All of a sudden, with my one post people got all over me for what? Here it is again: "I willingly will assist them in the prosecution of any who break the law, however they personally interpret it." Is this really any different than what it says in my published rules: Because HKPRO is based in the United States, all Federal, State and local firearms laws MUST be followed. HKPRO will cooperate with any and all law enforcement authorities in the investigation and/or prosecution of those who attempt to break the law while using the HKPRO Forum. THEY in this case, are the 12 round USP45 mag fans who like the guy who started all this interpret the law any way they like. I am not referring to ATF here as to who is interpreting the law. This is all I have the energy for tonight.
View Quote
Top Top