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Posted: 9/12/2010 9:01:12 AM EDT
Probably been discussed before but I can't find it.

Tell me why again the Powers that be are so chicken about awarding the MoH?

From what I've read and heard there are many military people that have performed deserving acts yet they get denied.
WTF over?

Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:06:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 9:07:27 AM EDT by NoStockBikes]
Because it is the highest medal, I think the bar has just been set so high that they are afraid to award it. It's hard to say that this person deserves it, but that person doesn't. Easier to say that neither do.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:08:04 AM EDT
The write up for the recommendation does no justice to what really went on...

Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:08:52 AM EDT
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703597204575483872764117024.html


Staff Sgt. Salvatore Giunta was recently informed that he will be awarded the Medal of Honor.

Do a little research!


Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:08:55 AM EDT
I'm sure the process behind it is extremely political. I've heard four or five stories every year since 2001 that are MOH worthy in my opinion.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:10:28 AM EDT
I have never figured out the way its decided, seems a lot of people receive the one below the MOH when they should get the MOH in my opinion, I suspect politics as well
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:11:05 AM EDT
Because if everyone who most people think deserve it, recieved it it would mean as much as a purple heart. Everyone can get a purple heart, the MOH is a huge deal.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:11:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 9:14:50 AM EDT by ajm1911]
There was actually a survey sent out to Soldiers recently that asked the same question. From the survey questions it seems like intermediate level commands are being looked at for stopping downgrading Medal of Honor submissions before they get to the Pentagon.

Just my take on it.

ETA: for clarity and accuracy of the survey
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:12:57 AM EDT
My last Battalion Commander had a knack for getting Medal of Honor recipients to speak at our Army ball.

Every one of them, to a 'T', was a very down to earth, and humble...most of them were from the Vietnam era.

One of the most memorable things one of them said to me was, "What I did was no different than the guy that enters a burning building to save a family member. We know the odds are not in our favor, but it has to be done."

Very honorable and brave men.

His statement to us Junior NCOs, after the ball, leads me to believe the above poster is correct when he states that the write-ups do not do the actions involved any justice.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:15:06 AM EDT
I read the article about Sgt. Giunta being awarded the medal. The Man is a hero and should be recognized. I'm proud of that.
But there certainly are many of our current soldiers/airmen/sailors/marines that deserve it.
I know they only want to award it to dead people. Even then they're pretty damn chicken about it.

Why is that?

My little voice is telling me its an ego thing. Typical fucking bureaucrats can't stand for the guys in the field to get the glory.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:16:27 AM EDT
Leadership probably feels that if they award it and it is later found to be non deserving that they will be personally held accountable. It was given often in previous conflicts to people that survived their circumstances but these days it seems 99.9% of the time the recipient has to die to get it. It is almost as if the leaders need the death as an excuse as to why they awarded it. I feel that it is simply because of our increased political nature in the military and the way everyone has to ensure they cover their own ass now.

Don't get me started on meritorious service medals. They aren't suppossed to be based on rank at all but instead merit. Almost everytime I see one of them awarded the junior enlisted gets the 1 point Achievement Medal, junior NCO gets the 3 point Commendation Medal, and SNCO gets the 5 point Meritorious Medal. That's just the way it is with exceptions here and there.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:20:49 AM EDT
Read the citations for the MoH. These guys don't just go above and beyond their duty, they go above and beyond what a human should capable of in order to accomplish the mission.

http://www.history.army.mil/moh.html
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:27:17 AM EDT
Thanks for the link.

But thats what I'm talking about, In almost 10 YEARS of GWOT..... what..... 7 or 8 MoH's? In 10yrs of Vietnam there were many awarded.
I also understand it SHOULD be a difficult award, but there have been a lot of heroic acts in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Why aren't these men(and women) being recognized?
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:30:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HellifIknow:
Thanks for the link.

But thats what I'm talking about, In almost 10 YEARS of GWOT..... what..... 7 or 8 MoH's? In 10yrs of Vietnam there were many awarded.
I also understand it SHOULD be a difficult award, but there have been a lot of heroic acts in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Why aren't these men(and women) being recognized?

But how long did it take for those to be awarded? Many MoH's have been awarded in my lifetime for heroism in WWII.

Give it a few years. The .mil takes the MoH seriously.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:34:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 9:40:28 AM EDT by Moose]
Originally Posted By wolfinator:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703597204575483872764117024.html


Staff Sgt. Salvatore Giunta was recently informed that he will be awarded the Medal of Honor.

Do a little research!




Staff Sgt Robert Miller will also be awarded the Medal of Honor, unfortunately it will be posthumous.

http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/09/09/44953-president-obama-to-award-medal-of-honor/index.html

And Chief Master Sgt Etchberger's Air Force Cross awarded during Vietnam is being upgraded to a MoH.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123220671

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:37:09 AM EDT
Because of the CSI effect. No longer are eye witness accounts themselves acceptable, they go back and via committee rebuild what was claimed to have happen in several cases the committee believed the eye witness accounts were supportable with what the forensics determined happened.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:38:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Moose:
Originally Posted By wolfinator:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703597204575483872764117024.html


Staff Sgt. Salvatore Giunta was recently informed that he will be awarded the Medal of Honor.

Do a little research!




Staff Sgt Robert Miller will also be awarded the Medal of Honor, unfortunately it will be posthumous.

http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/09/09/44953-president-obama-to-award-medal-of-honor/index.html

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
More info:

Hundreds honor fallen Special Forces Soldier

BAGRAM AIRFIELD, Afghanistan (Courtesy of CJSOTF-A Public Affairs, Jan. 29, 2008) – Hundreds of U.S. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and Coalition partners lined Bagram Airfield’s main roadway and tarmac Jan. 27, to pay their last respects to a fallen comrade.

U.S. Army Staff Sgt. Robert James Miller, of Company A, 3rd Battalion, 3rd Special Force Group (Airborne), was killed Jan. 25, by Taliban fighters while protecting his Operational Detachment Alpha teammates during combat operations near the village of Barikowt, Nari District, Konar Province, Afghanistan.

Miller and his team were supporting an Afghan Border Police and Coalition Forces security patrol in the Chenar Khar Valley near the Pakistan border when they were attacked.

A tactical vehicle carried Staff Sgt. Miller’s flag-draped casket to the waiting U.S. Air Force C-17 cargo aircraft. As the vehicle passed, service members stood at attention and rendered a final salute to their fallen comrade; hundreds more soldiers lined the tarmac. Soldiers from Special Operations Task Force 33 formed a cordon leading to the ramp as his brothers in arms serving as pallbearers escorted Staff Sgt. Miller’s remains into the aircraft’s empty cargo area.

Photo by U.S. Army Staff Sgt. Corey Dennis.
U.S. Army Brigadier Gen. Joseph Votel, Deputy Commanding General for Operations, Joint Task Force 82; U.S. Army Col. Chris Haas, Commander, Combined Joint Special Operations Task Force – Afghanistan and Commander, 3rd Special Forces Group (Airborne); and Lt. Col. Samuel Ashley, Commander, Special Operations Task Force 33, accompanied the escorts onto the aircraft to honor a fellow soldier who paid the ultimate sacrifice for the freedom of his country.

Miller was best remembered as a man who always had a smile and a ‘can do’ attitude. According to his teammates, he was always the first to volunteer for any task.

"Robby was the type of soldier that saw the hardships before him and stepped up to the challenge,” Lt. Col. Ashley eulogized during a memorial ceremony, Jan. 28, at Bagram Airfield. "He understood the hazards of combat and the risks of his service to our nation. He willingly bore the burden of the Soldier. He was the epitome of the SF soldier. He was a warrior among warriors.”

U.S. Army Capt. John Bishop, of Special Operations Task Force 33, and Miller’s former detachment commander also spoke at the ceremony. "He was always quick to volunteer and never thought it should be any other way. On numerous occasions when the Detachment was faced with a difficult task, Robby would just stand up and say, ‘I got this one, I’ll do it, send me.’”

Jan. 25, Miller found himself willingly leading a team of Afghan National Security Forces and Coalition soldiers during a combat reconnaissance patrol in Konar Province, near the Pakistan border. Insurgents hiding in a structure attacked Miller’s team. A fellow teammate called for close-air support to drop ordnance on the insurgent position, disrupting their attack. When the combined patrol moved toward the structure to check for any remaining enemy threats, insurgents again fired using heavy weapons.

Miller’s team captain was seriously wounded within the first minutes of the attack. While his commander was moved to safety, Miller returned fire. At great personal risk to himself, Miller remained at the front of the patrol and continued to lay down suppressive fire on multiple insurgent positions, allowing his wounded commander to be pulled out of the line of fire, ultimately saving his life. Miller’s personal courage under intense enemy fire enabled the entire patrol to gain cover and return fire. Even while injured by direct enemy small arms and machine gun fire, Miller continued to employ his M249 Squad Automatic Weapon and grenades to suppress enemy fire and protect his teammates.

Staff Sgt. Miller enlisted as a Special Forces trainee Aug. 14, 2003. He graduated from Infantry Basic Training and Airborne School at Ft. Benning, Ga., Jan. 6. Miller graduated from the Special Forces Qualification Course Sep. 26, 2004, and the Special Forces Weapons Sergeant Course Mar. 4, 2005. Miller received his coveted Special Forces Tab and was promoted to Sergeant after graduating from the Special Operations French Language Training Course, Sep. 30, 2005. That same day he was assigned to Company A, 3rd Battalion, 3rd Special Force Group (Airborne), Ft. Bragg, N.C.

He deployed to Afghanistan to support Operation Enduring Freedom from Aug. 2006 to March 2007. During this deployment, Miller received two Army Commendation Medals for Valor for his courage under fire.

Miller returned to Afghanistan for his second tour in Oct. 2007, where he served as a Weapons Sergeant for his team.

Lt. Col. Ashley completed the memorial by stating, "The motto of our Regiment is ‘Free the Oppressed.’ Special Forces soldiers have long lived by this creed and today, we all carry this torch. Robby sacrificed his life bringing freedom to the oppressed people of Afghanistan. He placed his life on the line so that others would have a chance to experience freedom.”

Miller is survived by his parents and seven brothers and sisters.





Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:38:44 AM EDT
it is the nations highest honor and all recipients get a lot of money from the government
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:41:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 9:42:52 AM EDT by R0N]
Originally Posted By truepatriot15:
it is the nations highest honor and all recipients get a lot of money from the government


The medal itself costs around 40,000. However the recipient only gets a few hundred dollars a month after they leave the service (other than invitational orders/travel) and 5 percent more on his retirement if he retires.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:43:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By truepatriot15:
it is the nations highest honor and all recipients get a lot of money from the government


The medal itself costs around 40,000. However the recipient only a few hundred dollars a month after they leave the service (other than invitational orders/travel) and 5 percent more on his retirement if he retires.

Yet he gets the joy of never having to salute first ever again.

Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:45:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M-1975:

Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By truepatriot15:
it is the nations highest honor and all recipients get a lot of money from the government


The medal itself costs around 40,000. However the recipient only a few hundred dollars a month after they leave the service (other than invitational orders/travel) and 5 percent more on his retirement if he retires.

Yet he gets the joy of never having to salute first ever again.



I never really found it that much of a problem saluting, maybe its just me.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:46:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By truepatriot15:
it is the nations highest honor and all recipients get a lot of money from the government


You are sadly misinformed about the money, the VA pays a whopping $1194.00 a month.

http://www.vba.va.gov/bln/21/Rates/special1.htm
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:50:11 AM EDT
MoH would be a tremendous honor, but you don't need one to be a hero, and real hero's would not care. Lot's of folks in all walks of life have been hero's and have not been recognized, but recognition was not the motive for their heroic actions.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 9:56:37 AM EDT
I think mostly it wasn't awarded since the battle wasn't a strategic battle.. Normandy and Iwo Jima comes to mind compared to something-something land. Don't get me wrong.. I do know there is a political element too ; and it is a strong one when they downgrade deserving people for Bronze Stars. Imagine the guy who saved eight people in battle, but because he was in the Navy as an IA.. It gets degraded since he is working outside his normal job description..

For the MoH guy... It might have pushed him to that MoH status, knowing it was in a reporter's book..


Link Posted: 9/12/2010 10:03:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 2400:
Originally Posted By truepatriot15:
it is the nations highest honor and all recipients get a lot of money from the government


You are sadly misinformed about the money, the VA pays a whopping $1194.00 a month.

http://www.vba.va.gov/bln/21/Rates/special1.htm


It's not be retirement ASAP money but It'll pay a mortgage payment, or a hell of a lot of beer.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 10:23:02 AM EDT
i have seen guys submitted for awards....... multiple times, and almost every single one, was stot down, and they were awarded the next lower award. there was a lot of criticism about this earlier in the war, when they compared the few who had been given the moh, to the same numbers of combat soldiers in the past, ( vietnam etc)....... there seems to be a very strong hesitation to give it out. while on the other side of the coin, officers are given bronze stars by the dozen, who work on base and never left the base..
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 10:36:46 AM EDT
I think that what we hear about each of them either is a played up or played down account of the actual event. In a time of war there are many more examples of heroism. When you compare what you have seen/heard compared to past experiences. Fortunately or unfortunately the only way to know what went down it to be at each one, so some may come down to which case has the better storytellers.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 10:38:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By uxo2:
The write up for the recommendation does no justice to what really went on...



At the end of the Gulf War I was tasked by my squadron commander with two other officers to recommend squadron members for medals. We had each flight lead write up different missions and went over them with the boss. After reading some of the reports there is a fine line between above and beyond and general court marshal. Then when you send the medal recommendation up to the wing, the politics of the medal process starts. All in all not an easy process to go through.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 11:51:17 AM EDT
Are we SERIOUSLY trying to use common sense to the military issue of awards????

Those of us that have served...I ask you...have you EVER been so mad in your life, than after being at a awards ceremony?????
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 11:55:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ritterkreuz1945:
Are we SERIOUSLY trying to use common sense to the military issue of awards????

Those of us that have served...I ask you...have you EVER been so mad in your life, than after being at a awards ceremony?????

You mean where dirtbag senior NCOs get Bronze Stars for doing nothing and the enlisted members that did all the work (and got shit on anyway) get AAMs?

Yeah I might've felt that.


Link Posted: 9/12/2010 11:58:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ritterkreuz1945:
Are we SERIOUSLY trying to use common sense to the military issue of awards????

Those of us that have served...I ask you...have you EVER been so mad in your life, than after being at a awards ceremony?????

There's a lot of BS awards handed out to say the least...

I think one of the reasons there's been a lack of MOH is the lack of intensity overall in the current conflicts.

Iraq has mostly boiled down to IED strikes after the first couple years.

Afghanistan is where I'd be shocked there aren't more coming out of (and I think we'll see quite a few here eventually). There's plenty of intensive fights, especially in the north and now more in the south. But as has been mentioned...it takes time. You'll see a Silver Star be the initial "issue" of award. It might take years for it to be pushed through for the CMOH.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 12:03:11 PM EDT
Because they haven't figured out a way to justify it as a deployment award for Brigade and higher level command and staff yet?
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 12:06:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kitulu:
Because they haven't figured out a way to justify it as a deployment award for Brigade and higher level command and staff yet?

"I heard a gunshot! CIBs/CABs for everybody!"
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 12:49:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By R0N:
Because of the CSI effect. No longer are eye witness accounts themselves acceptable, they go back and via committee rebuild what was claimed to have happen in several cases the committee believed the eye witness accounts were supportable with what the forensics determined happened.


Thats exactly what happened in Peralta's case. The word of the Marines with him wasn't good enough, but some Dr in DC who recreated it was. Thats some BS there.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 12:53:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ritterkreuz1945:
Are we SERIOUSLY trying to use common sense to the military issue of awards????

Those of us that have served...I ask you...have you EVER been so mad in your life, than after being at a awards ceremony?????


I'm puttin you in for NAM, Hard Charger
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 6:42:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M-1975:

Originally Posted By Kitulu:
Because they haven't figured out a way to justify it as a deployment award for Brigade and higher level command and staff yet?

"I heard a gunshot! CIBs/CABs for everybody!"


Our Company CO at my last unit tried that when they were in A'stan in 06-07...a mortar landed near where he was so he put himself in for a CAB. Fortunately, it got shot down.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 6:45:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M-1975:

Originally Posted By ritterkreuz1945:
Are we SERIOUSLY trying to use common sense to the military issue of awards????

Those of us that have served...I ask you...have you EVER been so mad in your life, than after being at a awards ceremony?????

You mean where dirtbag senior NCOs get Bronze Stars for doing nothing and the enlisted members that did all the work (and got shit on anyway) get AAMs?

Yeah I might've felt that.




Been there, seen that.

One of our guys witnessed a helo crash on Kandahar. It was one of the foreign forces there, IIRC. He ran over with a fire extinguisher, sprayed the helo, and pulled the pilots out.

He was awarded an AAM, COA, and a coin, because he was not one of the "high speed" Soldiers in the unit.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 6:56:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By M-1975:

Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By truepatriot15:
it is the nations highest honor and all recipients get a lot of money from the government


The medal itself costs around 40,000. However the recipient only a few hundred dollars a month after they leave the service (other than invitational orders/travel) and 5 percent more on his retirement if he retires.

Yet he gets the joy of never having to salute first ever again.



If he's the Soldier I think he is, he's not going to wait for an officer to salute first.

In addition, while it's traditional to salute an MoH recipient, it's not required by Army Regulation 600–25 (Salutes, Honors, and Visits of Courtesy).
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:03:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SIG-shooter:
I have never figured out the way its decided, seems a lot of people receive the one below the MOH when they should get the MOH in my opinion, I suspect politics as well

There is definately 'office politics' in the awarding of medals - mainly a belief that lower ranks don't 'deserve' high awards...

But the big issue with the really high awards, is that they seem to become progressively harder to receive, with each new war...

The same action:

Would get an MOH in WWII or Korea
Would get a Service Cross in Vietnam
Would get a Silver Star in Desert Storm
Would get a Bronze Star in OIF/OEF (if E-5 or above), otherwise an ARCOM or AAM...


Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:07:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By R0N:
Because of the CSI effect. No longer are eye witness accounts themselves acceptable, they go back and via committee rebuild what was claimed to have happen in several cases the committee believed the eye witness accounts were supportable with what the forensics determined happened.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. -1 though for leaving out the Powerpoint & Flash presentation though.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:11:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2010 7:12:02 PM EDT by 161Infantry]
Originally Posted By M-1975:

Originally Posted By ritterkreuz1945:
Are we SERIOUSLY trying to use common sense to the military issue of awards????

Those of us that have served...I ask you...have you EVER been so mad in your life, than after being at a awards ceremony?????

You mean where dirtbag senior NCOs get Bronze Stars for doing nothing and the enlisted members that did all the work (and got shit on anyway) get AAMs?

Yeah I might've felt that.



and guys in staff get CIBs/CABs didnt do shit and the guys in the line got jack shit.............................I also love how they put those bronze star stickers on the winows of their cars....
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:15:59 PM EDT
Society places a much higher value on guys like this:

Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:35:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silesius:
Society places a much higher value on guys like this:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-3/963911/50-cent-gun-5200138.jpg


Atleast he's using proper trigger discipline.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:36:25 PM EDT
Ever since the Army came up with the point system in WW2, medals have really lost their luster. Soldiers who were cooks went above and beyond by doing what infantrymen did every day. Then, they were rewarded further by being able to go home sooner. Now, the same stuff happens, only it's promotions. Worse yet, as mentioned by others above, awards have turned into some sort of rank based rewards system.

Long story short, familiarity breeds contempt. The Arcom used to be the shit, until they gave them out like candy. The Bronze Star used to be the shit, until only officers could get them. Getting a medal used to mean more than going home early or getting promoted.

The MOH still means something. Frankly, the criteria for getting one are nearly unattainable, and I think thats the way it should be. Otherwise we'd end up where we are with all the other medals.

Also, and unrelated to the rest of my theory above, I suspect the MOH is also contingent on the character of the possible recipient. An active duty soldier with that medal would be completely untouchable. It would be tough for a brigade commander to reprimand a punk E4 with a bad attitude if the O6 had to salute him.
Link Posted: 9/13/2010 7:48:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HellifIknow:
Probably been discussed before but I can't find it.

Tell me why again the Powers that be are so chicken about awarding the MoH?

From what I've read and heard there are many military people that have performed deserving acts yet they get denied.
WTF over?



I think that because we see so many Exceptional cases of bravery and competence under fire with the quality of soldiers we are turning out that it is kind of hard to single one out and say "Yep, this guy is clearly more deserving than the other 300 nominees".

Politics is some to do with it too.... When your president is a commie hippy from the 1960's, he's not going out of his way to glorify military service.
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