Colt .45 Kaboom - I never thought it would happen to me. - Page 2

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Colt .45 Kaboom - I never thought it would happen to me. (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 9/10/2010 7:08:03 PM EDT

[#1]

the way that case deformed is interseting... like it got pushed back and not expanded out... was there any evidence on the forcing cone that it took a strange hit? i would think that if your bullet was denied exit from the cylinder the back pressure would blow that foker up and maybe even push the case back into itself like the one pictured...

Posted: 9/10/2010 7:10:19 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Would the case hold a double charge?

Charge is very small. Case may hold a triple charge.

This. .45 Colt was originally a BP cartridge so it has tons of extra case volume. A charge of modern pistol powder takes up very little space inside.

Posted: 9/10/2010 7:42:59 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
sucks for your loss man, that looked like it was a sweet gun.

Posted: 9/10/2010 7:55:17 PM EDT

[#4]

Glad you are OK

Posted: 9/10/2010 8:01:44 PM EDT

[#5]

My money is on just plain ole old and worn out and she let go.

Damn shame, looks like a hell of a piece.

Posted: 9/10/2010 9:55:32 PM EDT

[#6]

can you get a new cylinder, and beat the top strap down.

Posted: 9/10/2010 10:06:08 PM EDT

[#7]

The timing was waaaaay off.

Posted: 9/10/2010 10:06:24 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
can you get a new cylinder, and beat the top strap down.

If he could would you volunteer to test it?

OP, what press did you use to reload? Single stage?

When I finish charging 50 cases I take a flashlight and inspect the levels of the brass in the loading block. A double charge is very apparent.

I use a Harrell Schuentzen powder measure, very precise. That said, it doesn't drop Unique worth a damn. I get wide variations, so I weigh each charge or use another powder. I'd be interested in more information about your procedure. Any chance you overlooked a visual inspection? If you can rule out a double charge I'd lean towards a failure of the cylinder.

Based on your information you may have seen around 13900 CUP, the upper end of my Hodgden data.

Posted: 9/10/2010 10:14:53 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No bulge in the barrel means no squib. What you had was a double charge of powder.

Firing with the cylinder out of alignment would not have caused damage like that. Besides, if the cylinder were really out of alignment, the firing pin wouldn't have hit the primer. Check the primer on the case that caused the kaboom. I'll bet that the firing pin strike is dead center, or very close to it.

Sorry to say this, but it was carelessness that caused this kaboom. Thank your lucky stars that you didn't get hurt.

Could be - but I don't think so.

These were individually weighed. Empty cases in one tray, charged in another. I visually check powder levels before I seat bullets.
There were test loads - I loaded them 5 at a time.

I'm very thankful I wasn't hurt.

The case that blew up. Top of cylinder was up.
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o24/Lost-Drive-In/colt/0043.jpg

A case from an earlier shot:
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o24/Lost-Drive-In/colt/0044.jpg

That's not enough misalignment for the bullet to have hit the forcing cone, it might have shaved a bit but not explode.. Even if it HAD hit the forcing cone there would be lead spatter and damage to the cone. I've had some shit happen that couldn't be explained, a double charge is the only thing that makes sense other than possibly a manufacturing flaw that didn't manifest itself until now

Posted: 9/10/2010 10:21:42 PM EDT

[#10]

damn I hate to see that gun like that.

I am glad you weren't injured.

My .02 says double charge

Posted: 9/10/2010 10:36:10 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:

sucks for your loss man, that looked like it was a sweet gun.

"Glad you are OK"

Posted: 9/11/2010 5:11:31 AM EDT

[#12]

I'm not denying that it could have been a double charge - anything is possible. I just examined the forcing cone and I don't see any distortion. I'm thinking that the weird primer strike may have wiped when the cylinder failed.

I will say that I'm very aware of the problems with doubles, and the age and relative low strength of this gun. I found the tiny amount of W231 in that big case spooky - that's why I was working up a Unique load.

The comments are all very interesting.

The idea that someone shot hot loads in it before I got it - that could be. It would have been before my friend got it, so at least 50 years ago. This gun literally sat in a toolbox, in a garage for decades. He didn't have any cartridges for it.

I'm claiming it's an original 45 colt because the stamping on the barrel looks factory. I realize they came in .455 and 45 ACP, I'm pretty sure this wasn't one of those.

The cylinder is still stuck in the frame - I guess I need to get it out. I have some experience at failure analysis. If I find any actual metallurgical issues, I'll report back.

I'm a bit surprised I couldn't find more pieces. In particular I would have expected the bullet and primer from the unfired round to have been on or near the bench.

Posted: 9/11/2010 5:33:37 AM EDT

[#13]

Sucks that happened.

I'd put it in a display box.

Posted: 9/11/2010 5:35:25 AM EDT

[#14]

I switched over to only using Trail Boss in my old guns a few years ago. Lower pressures, can't double charge the cases and just as fun to shoot.

Sorry about your Colt.

Posted: 9/11/2010 5:36:35 AM EDT

[#15]

Impossible! Only Glocks blow up.

Posted: 9/11/2010 5:39:29 AM EDT

[#16]

I agree with the double charge theory. Only 3 things can do that kind of damage, out of time cylinder, squibs and double charge. Being as the 1st 2 are illiminated it seems pretty easy to figure.
Old stress cracks or just plain old steel could contribute as well but would not be the root cause. Sorry for your loss. Live and learn.

Posted: 9/11/2010 5:42:55 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Yes they were hand loads.

Well, there's your answer.

Seems nearly every time I click on a blown-up gun thread, there are/were handloads involved.

Posted: 9/11/2010 5:43:17 AM EDT

[#18]

That was a beautiful old Colt OP. Sorry for your loss.

I'm glad you were not injured though.

Posted: 9/11/2010 5:49:47 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
I'm not denying that it could have been a double charge - anything is possible. I just examined the forcing cone and I don't see any distortion. I'm thinking that the weird primer strike may have wiped when the cylinder failed.

I will say that I'm very aware of the problems with doubles, and the age and relative low strength of this gun. I found the tiny amount of W231 in that big case spooky - that's why I was working up a Unique load.

The comments are all very interesting.

The idea that someone shot hot loads in it before I got it - that could be. It would have been before my friend got it, so at least 50 years ago. This gun literally sat in a toolbox, in a garage for decades. He didn't have any cartridges for it.

I'm claiming it's an original 45 colt because the stamping on the barrel looks factory. I realize they came in .455 and 45 ACP, I'm pretty sure this wasn't one of those.

The cylinder is still stuck in the frame - I guess I need to get it out. I have some experience at failure analysis. If I find any actual metallurgical issues, I'll report back.

I'm a bit surprised I couldn't find more pieces. In particular I would have expected the bullet and primer from the unfired round to have been on or near the bench.

Wait, was there so little powder in the case that the flash hole could have been above the level of the powder when horizontal?

Posted: 9/11/2010 5:50:51 AM EDT

[#20]

An undercharge of Winchester Ball Powder can be as bad as an overcharge.

Posted: 9/11/2010 5:56:36 AM EDT

[#21]

Glad your ok. Might could find another one with a good frame and bad barrel or something. Put the two together.

Posted: 9/11/2010 5:57:15 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
An undercharge of Winchester Ball Powder can be as bad as an overcharge.

That's what I'm thinking, he had detonation due to all the powder lighting off at once.

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:02:03 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Are you sure it was chambered for .45 colt, and not .455?

Just what I was thinking!!

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:10:00 AM EDT

[#24]

I don't know if out of battery is the right term. It sounds like the cylinder timing was off. Poor old gun :(

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:10:02 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Talk shit now Glock haters!

No seriously, that sucks ass. What a fucking shame to see a nice gun die.

Die? you can easily fix that with some welding and a torch

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:10:12 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
R.I.P Colt

Makes me wonna cry.

+1

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:11:07 AM EDT

[#27]

DAMN

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:16:24 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
can you get a new cylinder, and beat the top strap down.

If he could would you volunteer to test it?

OP, what press did you use to reload? Single stage?

When I finish charging 50 cases I take a flashlight and inspect the levels of the brass in the loading block. A double charge is very apparent.

I use a Harrell Schuentzen powder measure, very precise. That said, it doesn't drop Unique worth a damn. I get wide variations, so I weigh each charge or use another powder. I'd be interested in more information about your procedure. Any chance you overlooked a visual inspection? If you can rule out a double charge I'd lean towards a failure of the cylinder.

Based on your information you may have seen around 13900 CUP, the upper end of my Hodgden data.

Me?? Maybe.

But the Member here that found an old rusted POS revolver drop gun in the sand, cleaned, and shot it might too.

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:17:29 AM EDT

[#29]

For some reason the primer pockets look different on the 2 rounds.

Also it looks like a lot of pressure wiped part of the "4" off of the "45".

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:19:30 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
That might be the saddest thing I've seen all day. sorry

I am sad........sad for you........sad for history

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:20:19 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
For some reason the primer pockets look different on the 2 rounds.

http://l2snkq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1paSjLFF3lO6TVgabhANa4GSFvI08EebxZM-Pa6X2X_Q_ueDjSfSCYoynkXFiXP79wOta7LpnZbGaihKOx2bcY0iigks0dqdNT/00435.jpg?psid=1

Also it looks like a lot of pressure wiped part of the "4" off of the "45".

Honestly that primer hit doesn't look any more off center than in the other photo. It looks more like the case cammed up when it was fired and the cylinder came apart causing the firing pin to elongate the point of impact.

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:21:57 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Would the case hold a double charge?

.45 Colt?..........OH YEAH!!........It's a BIG case.

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:22:48 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
That has to be the oldest Glock I have ever seen.

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:22:55 AM EDT

[#34]

I'm referring more to the crimped primer look on the case on the right. The fp indent doesn't look that bad to me either. Probably deformed a little when the round exploded but close enough to the center for me.

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:27:24 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
[hat do I think happened?

I think that the gun fired out of battery. The bullet hung up on the forcing cone and the gun went boom.

I agree, or possibly metal problems in the old gun, or both.

Sorry for your loss.

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:32:58 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
I'm referring more to the crimped primer look on the case on the right. The fp indent doesn't look that bad to me either. Probably deformed a little when the round exploded but close enough to the center for me.

The primer also looks flattened on the left. To me that would rule out metal fatigue since it indicates a pressure spike that's not shown in the other cases.

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:38:12 AM EDT

[#37]

Maybe 6.8grs 231 is a little stiff for an old gun like that.

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:45:52 AM EDT

[#38]

Double charge is possible, glad you are okay.

Posted: 9/11/2010 6:50:07 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Maybe 6.8grs 231 is a little stiff for an old gun like that.

That's a light load for a .45 Colt comparable to an late 1800's BP load.

Posted: 9/11/2010 7:02:25 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
An undercharge of Winchester Ball Powder can be as bad as an overcharge.

That's what I'm thinking, he had detonation due to all the powder lighting off at once.

Actually, that's a good point... a small charge in such a large-volume case could conceivably lead to detonation instead of deflagration.

Posted: 9/11/2010 8:03:55 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
An undercharge of Winchester Ball Powder can be as bad as an overcharge.

That's what I'm thinking, he had detonation due to all the powder lighting off at once.

Actually, that's a good point... a small charge in such a large-volume case could conceivably lead to detonation instead of deflagration.

Detonation in pistols with fast powder is a myth. The only thing that would happen with small charges of 231 is a squib load. Ballisticians have tried for years and never been able to replicate it in a pistol, and only in a rifle that was using tiny charges of extremely slow powder. Ron Reiber who was a ballistician for Hogdgon tested it pretty extensively and only ever got it to happen in a .243 with an abnormally rough throat with extremely light charges of very slow rifle powder. Fast powder is actually the SAFEST thing to work with reduced loads. There may be some grain of truth with reduced charges of slow powders like H110/296 but not with fast powders.

Posted: 9/11/2010 8:13:39 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
An undercharge of Winchester Ball Powder can be as bad as an overcharge.

That's what I'm thinking, he had detonation due to all the powder lighting off at once.

Actually, that's a good point... a small charge in such a large-volume case could conceivably lead to detonation instead of deflagration.

Detonation in pistols with fast powder is a myth. The only thing that would happen with small charges of 231 is a squib load. Ballisticians have tried for years and never been able to replicate it in a pistol, and only in a rifle that was using tiny charges of extremely slow powder. Ron Reiber who was a ballistician for Hogdgon tested it pretty extensively and only ever got it to happen in a .243 with an abnormally rough throat with extremely light charges of very slow rifle powder. Fast powder is actually the SAFEST thing to work with reduced loads. There may be some grain of truth with reduced charges of slow powders like H110/296 but not with fast powders.

That is correct.

The NRA tried for years to replicate a "detonation" and never could cause one.

Posted: 9/11/2010 8:17:37 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
An undercharge of Winchester Ball Powder can be as bad as an overcharge.

That's what I'm thinking, he had detonation due to all the powder lighting off at once.

Actually, that's a good point... a small charge in such a large-volume case could conceivably lead to detonation instead of deflagration.

Detonation in pistols with fast powder is a myth. The only thing that would happen with small charges of 231 is a squib load. Ballisticians have tried for years and never been able to replicate it in a pistol, and only in a rifle that was using tiny charges of extremely slow powder. Ron Reiber who was a ballistician for Hogdgon tested it pretty extensively and only ever got it to happen in a .243 with an abnormally rough throat with extremely light charges of very slow rifle powder. Fast powder is actually the SAFEST thing to work with reduced loads. There may be some grain of truth with reduced charges of slow powders like H110/296 but not with fast powders.

That is correct.

The NRA tried for years to replicate a "detonation" and never could cause one.

Wow, I learned something new today. I always figured it was true because of the variety of places I'd heard it from.

Posted: 9/11/2010 8:22:39 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
An undercharge of Winchester Ball Powder can be as bad as an overcharge.

That's what I'm thinking, he had detonation due to all the powder lighting off at once.

Actually, that's a good point... a small charge in such a large-volume case could conceivably lead to detonation instead of deflagration.

Detonation in pistols with fast powder is a myth. The only thing that would happen with small charges of 231 is a squib load. Ballisticians have tried for years and never been able to replicate it in a pistol, and only in a rifle that was using tiny charges of extremely slow powder. Ron Reiber who was a ballistician for Hogdgon tested it pretty extensively and only ever got it to happen in a .243 with an abnormally rough throat with extremely light charges of very slow rifle powder. Fast powder is actually the SAFEST thing to work with reduced loads. There may be some grain of truth with reduced charges of slow powders like H110/296 but not with fast powders.

That is correct.

The NRA tried for years to replicate a "detonation" and never could cause one.

Wow, I learned something new today. I always figured it was true because of the variety of places I'd heard it from.

The problem is that "detonation" was popular because "it explains a lot".

It "answered a lot of questions" about blown-up pistols.

But if it is an actual event, it ought to be replicable. And it isn't.

A ton of powder has been burned up trying to get an "observable" detonation, but none have ever been duplicated. Therefore, it just doesn't meet scientific research standards.

Posted: 9/11/2010 8:40:52 AM EDT

[#45]

Is it possible that the fired round in the chamber set off the powder in the next round in the cylinder due to a missing primer in the next round from either a loose primer knocked out from recoil or else negligently omitted? To me it almost looks like both rounds went off at the same time, and where is the primer from the next round?

Posted: 9/11/2010 8:46:16 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Blown up old Colts make baby Jesus cry.

No kidding.

Posted: 9/11/2010 8:46:37 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:

That has to be the oldest Glock I have ever seen.

Nah this one is older:

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/853/glockwesson.jpg

Posted: 9/11/2010 9:04:54 AM EDT

[#48]

at least your ok... it can be replaced, you on the other hand cannot...

Posted: 9/11/2010 9:43:30 AM EDT

[#49]

Glad you are ok.

Posted: 9/11/2010 10:05:19 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Is it possible that the fired round in the chamber set off the powder in the next round in the cylinder due to a missing primer in the next round from either a loose primer knocked out from recoil or else negligently omitted? To me it almost looks like both rounds went off at the same time, and where is the primer from the next round?

The case definitely got crushed by the detonation. I'm assuming that this forced out the primer and bullet. They must have really been moving, because they weren't within 20 feet of the bench.
I assume the powder and primer in this shell didn't detonate - if they had there should have been soot and the crushed case should have at least partially expanded.

The primer was there - I hand prime and I notice when I have a loose primer pocket (although I've only noticed those on well used bottleneck cases).

After all these comments I'm changing my story - I must have double charged the case.

To those who think the gun can be repaired - I have the skills and the tools. I'm not that nuts.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Colt .45 Kaboom - I never thought it would happen to me. (Page 2 of 3)

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