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Posted: 9/10/2010 5:07:02 AM EDT
Ok we are 9yrs later. Who's at fault for the progress of the cleanup/rebuilding?
Is it a bureaucratic thing, a union thing or something/someone else?

It's just sad that after 9 years that the supposed greatest country in the world can't rebuild a couple buildings.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:07:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:10:03 AM EDT
Wow, someone else who thinks like I do.

I can't believe that in all the pictures of ground zero to this day it looks like a huge fucking mud pit.

I bet its a fucking union working on it.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:16:59 AM EDT
Sharia
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:19:04 AM EDT
The Apollo program took less time to go from start to putting a man on the moon.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:25:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Merrell:
The Apollo program took less time to go from start to putting a man on the moon.



This guy gets it
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:29:24 AM EDT
Didn't the original buildings take something like 10 years to build?
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:30:18 AM EDT
This is what ground zero looked like as of 3 weeks ago when I was there



Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:31:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By flyingbrick:
Didn't the original buildings take something like 10 years to build?




I thought I remember it taking around 5-6 years for each. But maybe I am remembering wrong.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:31:53 AM EDT
The management does not want anything there. Liberal victim mentality, along with massive squandering of time, opportunity, and money.

Typical NY; too many hands in the till, and "in the way".
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:32:11 AM EDT
Insulting. Those towers should have been rebuilt as soon as the last piece of debris was removed. They should have had a construction crew working 24-7 until it was complete. This 10 year delay is inexcusable.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:32:21 AM EDT
It disgusts me and I find it disgraceful.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:32:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JustaGunNut:
Wow, someone else who thinks like I do.

I can't believe that in all the pictures of ground zero to this day it looks like a huge fucking mud pit.

I bet its a fucking union working on it.
You are NOT alone!

It sickens me to see that fucking hole in the ground still.

We built the fucking atomic bomb from damn near scratch in less time.

We went from a 15 minute sub-orbital popgun flight to the fucking MOON in less time.

We mobilized millions of men, built hundreds of thousands of aircraft, thousands of ships and defeated multiple warring nations attempting to destroy us in less time.

The Empire State Building went from nothing to open for business in a little over a year.

Fucking HOOVER DAM was built in FIVE YEARS.



Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:34:37 AM EDT
I really think this is why people got so bent out of shape about the muslim community center/mosque/whatever it is. If the new tower(s) were well on their way to being built I don't think there would've been as much of a fuss. I don't know why it's taking so long, but they need to step it up.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:34:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Oakley:
Originally Posted By flyingbrick:
Didn't the original buildings take something like 10 years to build?




I thought I remember it taking around 5-6 years for each. But maybe I am remembering wrong.

A little over 2 years each. Tower 1 Aug 68' - Dec 70', Tower 2 Jan 69- July 71'.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:35:14 AM EDT
Building the twin towers took 5 years. WTC1 - WTC7 took 21 years.

The estimated date of completion is 2037.

The twin towers cost a billion dollars.

So far 7 billion has been spent on reconstruction.

Houston, we have a problem.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:37:54 AM EDT
Someone (or many) should have their heads on a chopping block at this point. The companies current employed to build the buildings should all be fired.
As much as I hate to say it, pay the damn Chinese or Mexicans to come in and build them. At least they'd have been built by now and a heck of a lot cheaper. Just burns my ass.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:39:52 AM EDT
I sincerely hope that this starts getting attention at the national level pretty soon. I hate feeling like the only fed up american in the country when it comes to shit like this. I wish instead of dividing the country by always taking pot shots at the opposing political party the major news networks start doing a fucking job that involves reporting and the news and bring shit like this to the entire nation.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:42:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rebelmark:
Insulting. Those towers should have been rebuilt as soon as the last piece of debris was removed. They should have had a construction crew working 24-7 until it was complete. This 10 year delay is inexcusable.


Immediate construction of two towers, larger than any others i nthe world, shaped like two upright middle fingers, facing Mecca. That would have been my plan....



Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:46:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rebelmark:
Insulting. Those towers should have been rebuilt as soon as the last piece of debris was removed. They should have had a construction crew working 24-7 until it was complete. This 10 year delay is inexcusable.


I'm only defending this from a construction standpoint as it is my trade, but have you ever designed a 50 plus story building overnight, let alone 2? Even if identical, there is a lot involved. Not to mention its being built in one of the busiest cities in the world. There are underground utilities, trains, etc that were destroyed by the towers falling, that means cleanup, re-routing, etc. Then they found a friggin ships hull in the mud that needed to be "salvaged".

Further, that hole is DAM deep and they are reaching street level. That's a lot of progress. Steel takes time to design, fabricate, ship, etc.

And that doesn't even get into the approval of the design by committee's, government, etc. Then the process of permits and everything else bureaucratic that goes along with new buildings. Corrupt or not.

Is there mismanagement?, quite possibly. But the fact remains, these things don't just pop out of the ground overnight. Years of planning are necessary for projects of this nature.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:47:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 5:58:17 AM EDT by rockthecasbah]
Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Someone (or many) should have their heads on a chopping block at this point. The companies current employed to build the buildings should all be fired.
As much as I hate to say it, pay the damn Chinese or Mexicans to come in and build them. At least they'd have been built by now and a heck of a lot cheaper. Just burns my ass.




Not their fault. Most of the problem with the reconstruction (or lack thereof) lies with the city and state government and their lack of the ability to settle on a single workable plan for the site. Consider, for example, how they approved an initial design (the one with the enormous multi-story glass atrium at the very top of the building) which they found later couldn't actually be constructed due to engineering concerns. Back to the drawing board. Another design was approved until the NYPD got a look at the plans and decided it was too close to the West Side highway and thus too vulnerable to attck (why weren't they consulted sooner?). The project has been a clusterfuck from the beginning, but the blame lies with the politicians and the political process, not with the contractors.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:00:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rockthecasbah:
Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Someone (or many) should have their heads on a chopping block at this point. The companies current employed to build the buildings should all be fired.
As much as I hate to say it, pay the damn Chinese or Mexicans to come in and build them. At least they'd have been built by now and a heck of a lot cheaper. Just burns my ass.




Not their fault. Most of the problem with the reconstruction (or lack thereof) lies with the city and state government and their lack of the ability to settle on a single workable plan for the site. Consider, for example, how they approved an initial design (the one with the enormous multi-story glass atrium at the very top of the building) which they found later couldn't actually be constructed due to engineering concerns. Back to the drawing board. Another design was approved until the NYPD got a look at the plans and decided it was too close to the West Side highway and thus too vulnerable to attck (why weren't they consulted sooner?). The project has been a clusterfuck from the beginning, but the blame lies with the politicians and the political process, not with the contractors.

This whole project has been one giant tit to suck on.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:15:42 AM EDT
Construction should have started on updated replacements as soon as the rubble was cleared. I really like the idea of keeping the footprints of the old towers as a memorial and building replacements right next to them.

Imagine what a morale booster it would have been to see those two buildings rising from the rubble. Hell, they probably would have been done by now, or at least been on track to be open for business on the 10th anniversary of the attacks.

What happened to the country that sent a man to the moon, kicked half the worlds ass in WWII, etc? Where did that spirit and work ethic go?

This is inexcusable. Bet the frigging mosque is open for business long before the "freedom tower".
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:17:47 AM EDT
Politics. Period.

In those 9 years NYC has put up 2 new baseball stadiums virtually overnight. NYC's priorities are fucked up. Hell, the Ground Zero Mosque will be up before the new WTC.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:17:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By flyingbrick:
Didn't the original buildings take something like 10 years to build?

Unless we hire the guys that did the Burj Dubai, they aint gonna do it again in 10 years...
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:20:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rockthecasbah:
Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Another design was approved until the NYPD got a look at the plans and decided it was too close to the West Side highway and thus too vulnerable to attck (why weren't they consulted sooner?).


Don't you mean the Port Authority PD? They're the ones that have jurisdiction over that property.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:21:17 AM EDT
It is sad, considering that Russia's 100ft 9/11 memorial was completed in NJ 4 years ago...


Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:21:28 AM EDT
It is sad, considering that Russia's 100ft 9/11 memorial was completed in NJ 4 years ago...


Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:26:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Wave:
Politics. Period.

In those 9 years NYC has put up 2 new baseball stadiums virtually overnight. NYC's priorities are fucked up. Hell, the Ground Zero Mosque will be up before the new WTC.



This plain and simple! What a shame


RG

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:27:29 AM EDT
There is so much red tape that you'd have to go through to build something like the new World Trade Centers. Everyone wants to have a hand in this project. I'm actually surprised they are this far along.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:29:39 AM EDT
Pic I took last Sunday while I was in NYC.....

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:30:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By numberofthebeast:
There is so much red tape that you'd have to go through to build something like the new World Trade Centers. Everyone wants to have a hand in this project. I'm actually surprised they are this far along.


This far along? Holy shit, the only way they could be worse off with the reconstruction is if the towers were still standing!
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:30:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scootr29:
Pic I took last Sunday while I was in NYC.....

http://luckiedog.smugmug.com/Other/NYC/IMG1818/1001257914_ojCTA-L.jpg

/sigh
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:30:45 AM EDT
Building in downtown Manhattan is a nightmare in the best of circumstances. For Ground Zero it was inevitable that it would take forever to come up with something. Too many competing interests.

Not surprised by any of it.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:31:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Wave:
Originally Posted By rockthecasbah:
Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Another design was approved until the NYPD got a look at the plans and decided it was too close to the West Side highway and thus too vulnerable to attck (why weren't they consulted sooner?).


Don't you mean the Port Authority PD? They're the ones that have jurisdiction over that property.



Probably - I knew there was one move of one proposed design because of security concerns, but I thought it was NYPD. If the PA has its own PD and jurisdiction over the site, you're probably correct since its PA ground. Still, you'd think that if proximity to the WSH would be an issue they should have known it before starting the design phase.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:37:10 AM EDT
I've conducted plenty of business with the City of New York; here's the reason plain and simple:

Due to the NYC economic downturn following the destruction of the Twin Towers on 9/11; there has been a huge surplus of vacant office space in the city.

The real estate moguls, of which Mayor Bloomberg is one; have done anything and everything they can behind the scenes to keep the rebuilding of The World Trade Center from moving forward at other than a snails pace.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:39:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 6:50:03 AM EDT by JeffTheOtherDude]
Historically Muslims would put up a mosque after they had defeated a territory.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:41:12 AM EDT
Maybe we should just build a metered parking lot or parking garage.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:51:55 AM EDT
A complete disgrace
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:52:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 6:56:43 AM EDT by America-first]
Originally Posted By JeffTheOtherDude:
Historically Muslims would put up a mosque after they had defeated a territory



Yup; on a site of of great importance to their defeated adversaries.

Temple Mount, site of the Jewish Temple




Istanbul, ex Constantinople, site of the iconic Church of Sophia



Taj Mahal.[/span]





It's their way of saying fuck you; you've been conquered and over run.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:54:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By JeffTheOtherDude:
Historically Muslims would put up a mosque after they had defeated a territory



Yup; on a site of of great importance to their defeated adversaries.

Temple Mount,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Temple_Mount.JPG/350px-Temple_Mount.JPG


Istanbul, ex Constantinople.

[url]http://www.tourguideinistanbul.com/resimler/old_sophia.jpg{/img]

Taj Mahal.[/span]

[url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Taj_Mahal%2C_Agra%2C_India.jpg/800px-Taj_Mahal%2C_Agra%2C_India.jpg" />

It's their way of saying fuck you; you've been conquered and over run.

That should speak volumes.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:47:08 AM EDT
They say the Flight 93 memorial is dragging ass, too:

"Is this all there is?"

Currently it's a pre-existing barn, a few benches, and some hay bales. 9/10/10:
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:50:56 AM EDT
Mark Davis (sitting in for Rush last week) went completely ballistic on this topic.

It's an utter embarassment that the HOLE is still there.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:12:43 AM EDT
They should have built a park, with a memorial. I can't imagine working in a building on top of a place where so many people died.

There will be so many ghosts, motion sensors will be able to pick them up.

Waste of fkn money
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 8:15:19 AM EDT
I must be the only member here who was an employee of the Port Authority of NY&NJ. The story is as complicated as only government can make it. What is the P.A.of NY&NJ you might ask? If you have ever visited NYC, you likely gave this agency some of your money, and didn't realize it. They were created by Congress to facilitate trade in the port district as a bi-state agency in the 1920's, and as time and technology progressed, took over the operation of the four bridges and two tunnels between NYC and New Jersey. They operate two airports in NYC, and one in Newark NJ, as well as the PATH train. The 16 acres of land where the WTC was is leased to this agency. Now, who's the boss? The Governors of NY and NJ ultimately are. Pataki and Whitman agreed to have the complex sub-let to the private sector, and developer Larry Silverstein got it, shortly before 9/11. In the nine years that followed, there have been many Governors of both states, one resigning after he declared he was Gay, another after he was caught with a prostitute. And we the People are told to trust big government!
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 9:08:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By metalsaber:
Ok we are 9yrs later. Who's at fault for the progress of the cleanup/rebuilding?
Is it a bureaucratic thing, a union thing or something/someone else?

It's just sad that after 9 years that the supposed greatest country in the world can't rebuild a couple buildings.


I agree 100%.

This is a bigger issue than the mosque, IMO. The mosque is just smoke and mirrors to distract us from the lack of progress.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 9:10:48 AM EDT
The GZ Mosque will be completed before the freedom tower will.

Its all about prioritys...
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 9:17:59 AM EDT
If you have Netflix on demand, you can watch Penn and Teller's Bullshit episode on Ground Zero...it's on season 4.

Political quagmire, morons put in charge, constant change of plans, conflicts of interest. The show was in 2006 and it's still a mudhole.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 9:19:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By snoopaloop:
I really think this is why people got so bent out of shape about the muslim community center/mosque/whatever it is. If the new tower(s) were well on their way to being built I don't think there would've been as much of a fuss. I don't know why it's taking so long, but they need to step it up.


I agree.

But the real reason is to many cooks in the kitchen... This project needed an architect with the vision and willpower, and public support to push something forward.

Unfortunately, it does not seem that we have any of those architects in the USA anymore.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 9:35:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
Originally Posted By rebelmark:
Insulting. Those towers should have been rebuilt as soon as the last piece of debris was removed. They should have had a construction crew working 24-7 until it was complete. This 10 year delay is inexcusable.


Immediate construction of two towers, larger than any others i nthe world, shaped like two upright middle fingers, facing Mecca. That would have been my plan....





Towers should have been rebuilt by now.

Freaking sad how much squabbling is happening.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 9:39:45 AM EDT
then we have the absolutely idiotic design of the building
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