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Posted: 9/9/2010 6:27:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 6:29:31 PM EDT by SuperJanitor]
Wow. Just heard on TV that solar activity between the 2 missions peaked and that had 16 been delayed or 17 went early, the astronauts would have likey recieved a lethal dose of radiation. Neat little fact that I'd never heard before. I guess it was the luck of the draw too, as solar activity back then was not being charted like it is now.

Carry on.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:32:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
Wow. Just heard on TV that solar activity between the 2 missions peaked and that had 16 been delayed or 17 went early, the astronauts would have likey recieved a lethal dose of radiation. Neat little fact that I'd never heard before. I guess it was the luck of the draw too, as solar activity back then was not being charted like it is now.

Carry on.

That's not exactly true. They might have been exposed to a hazardous level of solar radiation if they were on EVA at the time of the flare activity, but the hulls of the spacecraft (even the LM) would have sufficiently absorbed and lessened the exposure to non-hazardous levels.

NASA was very aware of solar flare activity in 1972.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:37:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 6:38:09 PM EDT by omega62]
Gene Cernan's book THE LAST MAN ON THE MOON is fascinating reading if you are interested in this.

(Everyone remembers who the first man on the moon was. Almost no one remembers who the last man on the moon was. It was Astronaut Gene Cernan - APOLLO 17).
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:39:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
Wow. Just heard on TV that solar activity between the 2 missions peaked and that had 16 been delayed or 17 went early, the astronauts would have likey recieved a lethal dose of radiation. Neat little fact that I'd never heard before. I guess it was the luck of the draw too, as solar activity back then was not being charted like it is now.

Carry on.

That's not exactly true. They might have been exposed to a hazardous level of solar radiation if they were on EVA at the time of the flare activity, but the hulls of the spacecraft (even the LM) would have sufficiently absorbed and lessened the exposure to non-hazardous levels.

NASA was very aware of solar flare activity in 1972.


I'm certainly no space buff, but were'nt the last moon missions doing extended EVA's? Were'nt they driving around on that moon mobile and conducting experiments? A little more than leaving a foot print and planting a flag. Probably enough time to recieve a nasty dose of both X-ray and gamma radiation during a solar event?
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:44:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 7:08:52 PM EDT by omega62]
Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
Wow. Just heard on TV that solar activity between the 2 missions peaked and that had 16 been delayed or 17 went early, the astronauts would have likey recieved a lethal dose of radiation. Neat little fact that I'd never heard before. I guess it was the luck of the draw too, as solar activity back then was not being charted like it is now.

Carry on.

That's not exactly true. They might have been exposed to a hazardous level of solar radiation if they were on EVA at the time of the flare activity, but the hulls of the spacecraft (even the LM) would have sufficiently absorbed and lessened the exposure to non-hazardous levels.

NASA was very aware of solar flare activity in 1972.


I'm certainly no space buff, but were'nt the last moon missions doing extended EVA's? Were'nt they driving around on that moon mobile and conducting experiments? A little more than leaving a foot print and planting a flag. Probably enough time to recieve a nasty dose of both X-ray and gamma radiation during a solar event?


Cernan spent a few hours in the moon buggy. They also travelled further from the LEM than any other astronauts.

He talks about it extensively in his book.

Cernan and Schmitt spent more time on the moon than any other mission - they actually slept overnight in the LEM (Armstrong and Aldrin were only on the surface for a few hours IIRC).

Cernan said that he had weird dreams that night, sleeping on the moon. I'll bet!

Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:58:53 PM EDT
The fact that Tom Hanks outed himself as douchebag doesn't diminish the fact that "From the Earth to the Moon" is a fantastic series.

I have a pretty big collection of books about NASA and the programs, written by the people that made them happen and "From the Earth to the Moon" is about as close as you'll get to a documentary. Much like "Apollo 13" even though the entire world knows how everything turned out, you'll still be on the edge of your seat watching it.

The people that built the hardware, made it work and rode it were, and are, Big Damn Heroes.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:05:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:

I'm certainly no space buff, but were'nt the last moon missions doing extended EVA's? Were'nt they driving around on that moon mobile and conducting experiments? A little more than leaving a foot print and planting a flag. Probably enough time to recieve a nasty dose of both X-ray and gamma radiation during a solar event?

The technology existed at the time to observe sunspot activity and predict solar flares. Had an eruption been predicted, they would have just stayed inside. Even if caught out, they would not have received a lethal dose of radiation. They would have had ample time to return to earth for treatment and, presumably, full recovery.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:08:46 PM EDT
I'll say one thing, the Saturn V is one awe inspiring machine. It dwarfs the shuttle. The machining and engineering that went into it's construction was nothing less than incredible.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:12:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
I'll say one thing, the Saturn V is one awe inspiring machine. It dwarfs the shuttle. The machining and engineering that went into it's construction was nothing less than incredible.

It's a fantastic machine. Most of it is absurdly crude, on close inspection. However, certain elements, like the turbopumps on the F-1 engines, are fantastic works of engineering and manufacturing.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:14:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
I'll say one thing, the Saturn V is one awe inspiring machine. It dwarfs the shuttle. The machining and engineering that went into it's construction was nothing less than incredible.

It's a fantastic machine. Most of it is absurdly crude, on close inspection. However, certain elements, like the turbopumps on the F-1 engines, are fantastic works of engineering and manufacturing.


I think it's neat how those engines "swivelled" during the primary boost phase.

Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:17:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By omega62:

I think it's neat how those engines "swivelled" during the primary boost phase.

The gimballing action of the F-1 engines (and J-2 of the second stage) was the only flight control mechanism during boost. Once the vehicle was on the S-IV-B, there was a limited amount of flight control available for reaction thrusters on the CSM, IIRC.

Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:18:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 7:19:31 PM EDT by SuperJanitor]
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
I'll say one thing, the Saturn V is one awe inspiring machine. It dwarfs the shuttle. The machining and engineering that went into it's construction was nothing less than incredible.

It's a fantastic machine. Most of it is absurdly crude, on close inspection. However, certain elements, like the turbopumps on the F-1 engines, are fantastic works of engineering and manufacturing.


It was a controlled explosion that had a success rate of 100%, even when disabled (of course, with the help of the Lem rockets). Every mission that left returned.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 3:50:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By omega62:
Gene Cernan's book THE LAST MAN ON THE MOON is fascinating reading if you are interested in this.

(Everyone remembers who the first man on the moon was. Almost no one remembers who the last man on the moon was. It was Astronaut Gene Cernan - APOLLO 17).


And he wrote his daughter's name in the dust before climbing back into the LEM and leaving the moon.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:38:26 PM EDT
Dumb question, I guess. Are there consumer grade telescopes than can identify man made objects that were left on the moons surface? Was there a mirror left on the lunar surface that laser beams are bounced off of?
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:44:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
Dumb question, I guess. Are there consumer grade telescopes than can identify man made objects that were left on the moons surface? Was there a mirror left on the lunar surface that laser beams are bounced off of?

Nope. There were mirrors left on the Moon that extremely high powered lasers can be bounced off of, yes.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:48:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
Dumb question, I guess. Are there consumer grade telescopes than can identify man made objects that were left on the moons surface?

At this point the best we have is recent lunar orbiters that can see what's left of the equipment from the lunar missions.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:50:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By omega62:
Gene Cernan's book THE LAST MAN ON THE MOON is fascinating reading if you are interested in this.


The account of his spacewalk during Gemini is quite harrowing...
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:54:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Pegasus6:

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
Dumb question, I guess. Are there consumer grade telescopes than can identify man made objects that were left on the moons surface?

At this point the best we have is recent lunar orbiters that can see what's left of the equipment from the lunar missions.


Don't the ruskies also have some unmanned remote operted vehicles up there too?
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 4:59:25 PM EDT
I just started watching the When We Left Earth series on Netflix - it's available for instant streaming. It's amazing how many badasses were involved with the space program and the levels of badassery that they achieved.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:04:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Torqued:
It's amazing how many badasses were involved with the space program and the levels of badassery that they achieved.


Its also incredibly depressing when you think about what the space program has become....
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:11:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Moose:
Originally Posted By omega62:
Gene Cernan's book THE LAST MAN ON THE MOON is fascinating reading if you are interested in this.


The account of his spacewalk during Gemini is quite harrowing...
Compare and contrast his Gemini EVA with Aldrin's. Taking nothing away from Ed White or Gene Cernan, but Buzz ALdrin was (and still is) a genius.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:15:49 PM EDT
In the Shadow of the Moon <–––– must see documentary
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:17:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
Originally Posted By Pegasus6:

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
Dumb question, I guess. Are there consumer grade telescopes than can identify man made objects that were left on the moons surface?

At this point the best we have is recent lunar orbiters that can see what's left of the equipment from the lunar missions.


Don't the ruskies also have some unmanned remote operted vehicles up there too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luna_programme

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunokhod_programme
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:18:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SevenMMmag:
In the Shadow of the Moon <–––– must see documentary

Yes. It's very good. There are a couple of inaccuracies, but overall it was a very nice presentation. Also "Apollo Wives" on BBC was really cool.

I love this stuff!
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:27:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Moose:
Originally Posted By Torqued:
It's amazing how many badasses were involved with the space program and the levels of badassery that they achieved.


Its also incredibly depressing when you think about what the space program has become....


What you don't like the muslim outreach program?
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:28:53 PM EDT
You know what's pretty good too? Moon Machines from the History Channel (I think)
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:29:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
Wow. Just heard on TV that solar activity between the 2 missions peaked and that had 16 been delayed or 17 went early, the astronauts would have likey recieved a lethal dose of radiation. Neat little fact that I'd never heard before. I guess it was the luck of the draw too, as solar activity back then was not being charted like it is now.

Carry on.

That's not exactly true. They might have been exposed to a hazardous level of solar radiation if they were on EVA at the time of the flare activity, but the hulls of the spacecraft (even the LM) would have sufficiently absorbed and lessened the exposure to non-hazardous levels.

NASA was very aware of solar flare activity in 1972.


You sure about the protection of the vehicles? I've heard otherwise I think.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:31:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 5:34:30 PM EDT by DzlBenz]

Originally Posted By RutgersHellfish:

You sure about the protection of the vehicles? I've heard otherwise I think.

You may be thinking about gamma ray or Van Allen radiation, or even micrometeorites. I'm pretty certain about the ability of Apollo spacecraft hull construction to lessen the intensity of solar photons.

Lemme look around a bit...

Well, there's this:
Surely, though, no astronaut is going to walk around on the Moon when there's a giant sunspot threatening to explode. "They're going to stay inside their spaceship (or habitat)," says Cucinotta. An Apollo command module with its aluminum hull would have attenuated the 1972 storm from 400 rem to less than 35 rem at the astronaut's blood-forming organs. That's the difference between needing a bone marrow transplant â&#128;&#346; or just a headache pill.
... from this article that NASA published in 2005.


Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:34:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:41:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/10/2010 5:42:25 PM EDT by RutgersHellfish]
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By RutgersHellfish:

You sure about the protection of the vehicles? I've heard otherwise I think.

You may be thinking about gamma ray or Van Allen radiation, or even micrometeorites. I'm pretty certain about the ability of Apollo spacecraft hull construction to lessen the intensity of solar photons.

Lemme look around a bit...

Well, there's this:
Surely, though, no astronaut is going to walk around on the Moon when there's a giant sunspot threatening to explode. "They're going to stay inside their spaceship (or habitat)," says Cucinotta. An Apollo command module with its aluminum hull would have attenuated the 1972 storm from 400 rem to less than 35 rem at the astronaut's blood-forming organs. That's the difference between needing a bone marrow transplant ‌ or just a headache pill.
... from this article that NASA published in 2005.




Yeah based on that you're right I probably remembered wrong.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 5:42:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RutgersHellfish:
Originally Posted By Moose:
Originally Posted By Torqued:
It's amazing how many badasses were involved with the space program and the levels of badassery that they achieved.


Its also incredibly depressing when you think about what the space program has become....


What you don't like the muslim outreach program?


Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:11:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By omega62:
Gene Cernan's book THE LAST MAN ON THE MOON is fascinating reading if you are interested in this.

(Everyone remembers who the first man on the moon was. Almost no one remembers who the last man on the moon was. It was Astronaut Gene Cernan - APOLLO 17).

He won't be the last forever. But ole Neil will always be first.

Just sayin'.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 6:58:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By Moose:
Originally Posted By omega62:
Gene Cernan's book THE LAST MAN ON THE MOON is fascinating reading if you are interested in this.


The account of his spacewalk during Gemini is quite harrowing...
Compare and contrast his Gemini EVA with Aldrin's. Taking nothing away from Ed White or Gene Cernan, but Buzz ALdrin was (and still is) a genius.



If I'm remembering the book right, Cernan didin't have such a high opinion of Aldrin...

But I totally agree with you about Aldrin.
He was the first PhD Astronaut and to balance that out, he was a MiG killer too!
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:03:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Moose:

If I'm remembering the book right, Cernan didin't have such a high opinion of Aldrin...

But I totally agree with you about Aldrin.
He was the first PhD Astronaut and to balance that out, he was a MiG killer too!

Not many of the career military astronauts did. He looked at space flight as a scientific achievement, while many of his contemporaries looked at it as just another test pilot assignment. Aldrin is a scientist, and he continues to be pretty arrogant on matters on which he's got demonstrated expertise.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:09:02 PM EDT
I'd consider Cernan's spacewalk the most important.

It started the ball rolling for fixing EVA.

Link Posted: 9/10/2010 7:10:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danpass:
I'd consider Cernan's spacewalk the most important.

It started the ball rolling for fixing EVA.


Hmm ... I can see that. It showed how little could be achieved on EVA without any sort of training or practice.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:00:31 PM EDT
I happen to know next to the last man on the moon. Pretty incredible stories.

SRM
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:12:31 PM EDT
My father was a Boeing Engineer on the launch team for all the Saturn V / Apollo missions. I have the front covers of the launch countdown procedures for Apollo 14 & 17, my dad was a signature authority on these (his signature is on the cover, for "Electrical/Ordnance Systems")

I've got some pics I'll post tomorrow when I get back home.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:37:40 PM EDT
The Apollo V launch vehicle was a magnificent achienvement. I was there and wish I could claim even a minimal role in its development––but that's not the case. Its not too well known that two Apollo V launch vehicles were nearly lost––the first being Apollo 5 or 6 (can't remember which but it was the second of the two unmanned Apollo 5 launches) and the second was Apollo 13 (not associated with the later explosion in the Service Modle.) If memory serves, both isues were related to the Pogo affect which caused hellashish longitudanal vibations in the launch vehicle. Apollo 6 allegedly would have been aborted during ascent had it been carrying a live crew and Apollo 13 had longitudanal vibtations in excess of 30 g's, well in excess of the design limits, which could well have destroyed the launch vehicle the payload and its crew. Luckily the vehicle was robust enough to hold together until the problem passed.

The Apollow program did have two "fatal" accidents involving the spacecraft itself not counting the two near misses with the launch vehicle––Apollo 1 on the ground which killed Grissom, White and Chaffee, and Apollo 13 which while not fatal in the sense that no crewman died, could easily have lost the entire crew under grisly circumstances had the CSM failure happened at a different time in the flight profle. Apollo effectively lost two crews in a total of a dozen flights (or so) and the STS Program lost two crews in a total of 120 flights (or whatever the number is). The reliability guys might dispute the simplified rationale, but that implies to me a ten-fold improvement in reliability between the Apollo Program and STS.

The first Saturn V flight was unbelievable. From 13 miles away on Merritt Island, I thought that thing was gonna fall back onto the pad it was going so slow. It didn't and history was made.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:41:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SRM:
I happen to know next to the last man on the moon. Pretty incredible stories.

SRM


Serious question, did he ever mention seeing unexplained flying objects lilke others have?
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 10:59:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By Moose:

If I'm remembering the book right, Cernan didin't have such a high opinion of Aldrin...

But I totally agree with you about Aldrin.
He was the first PhD Astronaut and to balance that out, he was a MiG killer too!

Not many of the career military astronauts did. He looked at space flight as a scientific achievement, while many of his contemporaries looked at it as just another test pilot assignment. Aldrin is a scientist, and he continues to be pretty arrogant on matters on which he's got demonstrated expertise.


He was also very religious and mindful of the historical significance of the program. Both of those things led to a perception of him not having the same priorities as the rest of the astronauts. This was also some indication that Aldrin at least discussed the prospects of him being the first to leave the LM on the moon, rather then Armstrong. That wasn't about him wanting fame, but that he felt that Armstrong was as focused on the piloting and mission more then the enormity of the event as the rest of the astronaut corp.

Of course, as time went on those sorts of feelings diminished and at no point did anyone in the program doubt Aldrins abilities or character. It was, as you pointed out, a slight mismatch of personalities. The same could be said for Armstrong, who was after all a civilian test pilot, and had a quiet reserved demeanor. Whatever anyone thought, everyone involved were absolute professionals and politics really didn't play a role in crew selection.

Unlike today...
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 4:04:45 AM EDT



The first man on the moon...with a moustache.
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