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Posted: 9/9/2010 6:11:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:13:00 AM EDT
I've often wondered the same...

Two-three shots within the same inch or two seem like wasted energy to me. As long as they all are in the "vitals" area, who cares about tight groups?
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:14:57 AM EDT
I bet focusing on delivery speed rather than precise accuracy is the better choice.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:15:43 AM EDT
10mm: No follow up shot needed.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:15:55 AM EDT
Accuracy through volume of fire?



Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:15:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 6:18:11 AM EDT by Admiral_Crunch]
I would think spread-out shots would be more debilitating. Three shots in one area will wreck that small area, but three shots spread out will also spread out the damage.

Ow. My left shoulder is REALLY destroyed.

OR

Ow, my left shoulder is messed up, and so is my liver and my right lung.

I'd take B if I were shooting.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:17:44 AM EDT
The cavitation of a similar placed shot will be similar. So there will be as it seems a loss of energy.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:18:04 AM EDT
I think if I am cloverleafing I am shooting too slow

I think if I can't get them all on a paper plate I am shooting too fast.

When I can cover them with an index card I feel like I am striking a pretty good medium.

YMMV
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:18:37 AM EDT
Maybe deaccurizing of pistols will be the next "must-have" modification.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:19:32 AM EDT
It would seem the larger group would have a better chance of being fatal. Then again, 2 or 3 tightly grouped shots in the heart is definitely fatal.

Maybe the bigger groups would better allow for subtle differences in anatomy? Overall greater chance of a fatal hit?

I dunno. Cool topic and I look forward to the answers.

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Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:19:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 6:19:52 AM EDT by MONGO45]
I would recommend sending them as straight as possible. The target's movement will provide the deviation.

It has worked before......
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:20:47 AM EDT
You want to have tight groups now, because they're going to open up when you're under stress.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:21:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:22:25 AM EDT
I would think that in a real shooting situation shooting a clover leaf type group in the bad guys chest would be a non-issue.....not going to happen.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:25:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 6:36:01 AM EDT by sleepdr]
2 shots center of mass aren't going to make the recipient feel too great, regardless. I rarely see cloverleaf proximity entry wounds in actual shooting victims, but they still get hurt. Granted, there may be a subset of those that simply die before reaching a hospital, but talking to LE & EMS hasn't lead me to believe that. There are many air and blood containing things in COM. Holes in them are bad. I say shoot as fast and accurately as possible. My movement, stress, and target movement will open the group up.

The ability to do precision reinforces basic marksmanship. There is a time & place for that. Hostages, other innocents close by, minimal amount of bad guy exposed beyond hard cover.

2 shots 6 inches apart but still com to me, at least, shows a good balance of accuracy with speed.

Disclaimer. I'm low speed high drag. Just a guy that loves to take training classes, and has taken care of lots of people shot COM or elsewhere. Several of my classes have done one hole or cloverleaf drills. Very useful after working on speed to force yourself to hit the brakes enough to do precise shots.

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Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:28:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:29:00 AM EDT
I gotta go with the target movement and stress handling the spread for you.

Train to shoot as well as possible, the situation itself will make it impossible to match range conditions. Also, are you really going to keep shooting that group over and over on a perp or when it doesn't work after the first two or three are you going to aim for the pelvic bone or head? Besides, if you're so good that under actual real world conditions you can shoot a nice neat cloverleaf at your point of aim on a moving target then you're good enough to put the first one somewhere vital anyway.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:31:05 AM EDT
I had always heard 'Start at the bellybutton , and work your way up to the head' or something like that.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:32:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja:
You want to have tight groups now, because they're going to open up when you're under stress.


^ This. Shoot as tight as you can, becuase under stress and having a moving target are going to open that group up a lot.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:32:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Remyrw:
I gotta go with the target movement and stress handling the spread for you.

Train to shoot as well as possible, the situation itself will make it impossible to match range conditions. Also, are you really going to keep shooting that group over and over on a perp or when it doesn't work after the first two or three are you going to aim for the pelvic bone or head? Besides, if you're so good that under actual real world conditions you can shoot a nice neat cloverleaf at your point of aim on a moving target then you're good enough to put the first one somewhere vital anyway.


Truth. If you can precisely spread your shots, then you can precisely pinpoint a fatal hit with your first shot. Aim for COM and the combination of stress and target movement will provide the dispersion.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:37:46 AM EDT
If you can tag a guy with 2-3 shots that you can cover with a business card while on a 2 way shooting range, you're way ahead.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:39:19 AM EDT
Docs always told us it was the speed of the second shot that caused the body to go into massive shock and basically made you fucked no matter what
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:41:23 AM EDT
I'd rather have three or four fast shots in a six inch circle than a double tap sitting on top of one another. To me it's speed and I teach the difference between combat shooting versus target shooting. He who gets hits first is most likely to survive. Spread the love.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:43:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:44:17 AM EDT
Targets only so big...


Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:45:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 6:46:18 AM EDT by macman37]
I don't think it's going to be a problem. People generally don't like being shot, so they're given to moving away from what's shooting them.

If you're training, and you're putting every shot in a nice tight knot... you're not pushing yourself hard enough.

That said, accuracy is required 1000%. You have to get those shots on target. You SHOULD be capable of putting your rounds in a nice tight group.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:45:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ost:
10mm: No follow up shot needed.


this.. it produces a hole you can throw a cat through..
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:46:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 6:54:39 AM EDT by M1-Matt]
Cant I just rack the slide of the shotgun until they keel over?

I would apply a standard defensive response, re-asses the target and go for a secondary defensive response, IE CNS or girdle.

ETA the tempo that I shoot is dependent on how far the target is. Naturally this is all well and fine on a square range. If it came down to me using my weapon I have no idea of waht will transpire. I will just shoot to stop the threat.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:46:33 AM EDT
Shoot what you are aiming at untill its dead. You can worry about your grouping after that.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:50:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 6:50:50 AM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:53:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MONGO45:
I would recommend sending them as straight as possible. The target's movement will provide the deviation.

It has worked before......

Good point.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:55:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
You are going to be moving, the target is going to be moving. You are going to be stressed. Try for the smaller group because it is going to open up in a real-life shooting anyways.


I fully agree with that.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 6:57:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
Originally Posted By ost:
10mm: No follow up shot needed.


this.. it produces a hole you can throw a cat through..


So just racking the slide on a 10mm, causes folks to pass out in fear....
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:00:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:03:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:05:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MaximRecoil:
Maybe deaccurizing of pistols will be the next "must-have" modification.


I would recommend consulting the carnies the operate the "shoot out the star game". Those BB's come out of the barrel all over the place!!!
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:05:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By guns762:
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
Originally Posted By ost:
10mm: No follow up shot needed.


this.. it produces a hole you can throw a cat through..


So just racking the slide on a 10mm, causes folks to pass out in fear....


its a distintive chach-chink sound.. I actualy have to wear hearing protection when I cycle the slide or I will end up crapping my pants.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:07:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Attended a class the other day. One part stressed making very accurate basically clover leaf shoots and then it's better to spread the shots out in actual combat shooting.





Sounds like an excuse for using a Mini-14
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:08:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Badlatitude:
Shoot what you are aiming at untill its dead. You can worry about your grouping after that.


Well said!
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:09:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:12:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
I have always shot expert in quals.

The other day I had the opportunity to do some FATS training. Delivering accurate hits on a moving target is not easy.

I had some scenarios that had a 50% miss ratio.


So you're saying that your hits were closer to the 6" apart guideline than the cloverleaf guideline?


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Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:14:43 AM EDT
Probably already said, but I was always told to aim straight, the person will probably be moving and that will spread out the impact points.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:16:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2010 7:19:07 AM EDT by NoStockBikes]
Originally Posted By Fat_McNasty:
Originally Posted By ost:
10mm: No follow up shot needed.


this.. it produces a hole you can throw a cat through..


Plus the cat scratching and clawing as it tries to grab onto something as you throw it through enhances the damage in the wound channel.

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Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:17:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:18:06 AM EDT
This is funny. I can see it now.
Hey there bad guy, yeah you scumbag, hold still because I want to shot you multiple times in a cloverleaf type fashion and it's real important that I get an impressive grouping.
I vote for .45 cal as close to the middle and as many times as possible. Maybe when I'm done you can drop a bowling ball through the resulting passage way without it getting any goo on it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:18:42 AM EDT
This was the reason why the instructor I went to used paper plates instead of targets with bullseyes. He said that as long as you can put ALL your rounds inside a space as big as a paper plate on the chest, that was likely going to be a serious wound to the target.

For the people I've taught to shoot, I use typing paper and then move to paper-plate sized (but more traditional) bullseye rings. Both would equate to painful, debilitating hits on the human torso, but the rings give me some idea of how they're handling the gun.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:21:58 AM EDT
Lol that always bothered me in Collateral...

"we're dealing with a professional here, look at those groups, millimeters apart" pointing to 2 holes in the chest...
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:24:15 AM EDT
Assuming they are all hits, it seems to make sense that you would get more effect on the target with shots that are spaced apart. I've been trained to shoot as fast as possible while still keeping them on the target. That invariably means that I'm not shooting tight little groups on silhouettes.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:24:56 AM EDT
I'll stick to trying to get shots in to center mass as accurately as possible and as quickly as possible and then I'll be very happy and have bragging rights if I am still alive and there is a nice tight group or I am still alive and he is dead with a big sloppy group in chest.

Either way the key for me is to be alive at the end of the encounter. The goal is to not waste energy worrying about whether or not a close group or a large group is more lethal/apt to be a fight stopper.

It is my opinion that multiple shots in the chest or face or ankle is not going to be pleasant and when it comes down to it I want to make sure it is not pleasant for him/her.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:25:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:26:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Go ahead and shoot those tiny clover leafs in practice.

When the lead starts flying your direction, your groups will spread out nicely.



Nice how that sort of works itself out eh?
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