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Posted: 9/9/2010 6:11:10 AM EDT
Attended a class the other day. One part stressed making very accurate basically clover leaf shoots and then it's better to spread the shots out in actual combat shooting.
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I've often wondered the same...
Two-three shots within the same inch or two seem like wasted energy to me. As long as they all are in the "vitals" area, who cares about tight groups? |
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I bet focusing on delivery speed rather than precise accuracy is the better choice.
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I would think spread-out shots would be more debilitating. Three shots in one area will wreck that small area, but three shots spread out will also spread out the damage.
Ow. My left shoulder is REALLY destroyed. OR Ow, my left shoulder is messed up, and so is my liver and my right lung. I'd take B if I were shooting. |
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The cavitation of a similar placed shot will be similar. So there will be as it seems a loss of energy.
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I think if I am cloverleafing I am shooting too slow
I think if I can't get them all on a paper plate I am shooting too fast. When I can cover them with an index card I feel like I am striking a pretty good medium. YMMV |
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Maybe deaccurizing of pistols will be the next "must-have" modification.
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It would seem the larger group would have a better chance of being fatal. Then again, 2 or 3 tightly grouped shots in the heart is definitely fatal.
Maybe the bigger groups would better allow for subtle differences in anatomy? Overall greater chance of a fatal hit? I dunno. Cool topic and I look forward to the answers. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I would recommend sending them as straight as possible. The target's movement will provide the deviation.
It has worked before...... |
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You want to have tight groups now, because they're going to open up when you're under stress.
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I would recommend sending them as straight as possible. The target's movement will provide the deviation. It has worked before...... |
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I would think that in a real shooting situation shooting a clover leaf type group in the bad guys chest would be a non-issue.....not going to happen.
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2 shots center of mass aren't going to make the recipient feel too great, regardless. I rarely see cloverleaf proximity entry wounds in actual shooting victims, but they still get hurt. Granted, there may be a subset of those that simply die before reaching a hospital, but talking to LE & EMS hasn't lead me to believe that. There are many air and blood containing things in COM. Holes in them are bad. I say shoot as fast and accurately as possible. My movement, stress, and target movement will open the group up.
The ability to do precision reinforces basic marksmanship. There is a time & place for that. Hostages, other innocents close by, minimal amount of bad guy exposed beyond hard cover. 2 shots 6 inches apart but still com to me, at least, shows a good balance of accuracy with speed. Disclaimer. I'm low speed high drag. Just a guy that loves to take training classes, and has taken care of lots of people shot COM or elsewhere. Several of my classes have done one hole or cloverleaf drills. Very useful after working on speed to force yourself to hit the brakes enough to do precise shots. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I gotta go with the target movement and stress handling the spread for you.
Train to shoot as well as possible, the situation itself will make it impossible to match range conditions. Also, are you really going to keep shooting that group over and over on a perp or when it doesn't work after the first two or three are you going to aim for the pelvic bone or head? Besides, if you're so good that under actual real world conditions you can shoot a nice neat cloverleaf at your point of aim on a moving target then you're good enough to put the first one somewhere vital anyway. |
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I had always heard 'Start at the bellybutton , and work your way up to the head' or something like that.
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You want to have tight groups now, because they're going to open up when you're under stress. ^ This. Shoot as tight as you can, becuase under stress and having a moving target are going to open that group up a lot. |
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I gotta go with the target movement and stress handling the spread for you. Train to shoot as well as possible, the situation itself will make it impossible to match range conditions. Also, are you really going to keep shooting that group over and over on a perp or when it doesn't work after the first two or three are you going to aim for the pelvic bone or head? Besides, if you're so good that under actual real world conditions you can shoot a nice neat cloverleaf at your point of aim on a moving target then you're good enough to put the first one somewhere vital anyway. Truth. If you can precisely spread your shots, then you can precisely pinpoint a fatal hit with your first shot. Aim for COM and the combination of stress and target movement will provide the dispersion. |
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If you can tag a guy with 2-3 shots that you can cover with a business card while on a 2 way shooting range, you're way ahead.
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Docs always told us it was the speed of the second shot that caused the body to go into massive shock and basically made you fucked no matter what
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I'd rather have three or four fast shots in a six inch circle than a double tap sitting on top of one another. To me it's speed and I teach the difference between combat shooting versus target shooting. He who gets hits first is most likely to survive. Spread the love.
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I have always shot expert in quals.
The other day I had the opportunity to do some FATS training. Delivering accurate hits on a moving target is not easy. I had some scenarios that had a 50% miss ratio. |
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I don't think it's going to be a problem. People generally don't like being shot, so they're given to moving away from what's shooting them.
If you're training, and you're putting every shot in a nice tight knot... you're not pushing yourself hard enough. That said, accuracy is required 1000%. You have to get those shots on target. You SHOULD be capable of putting your rounds in a nice tight group. |
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10mm: No follow up shot needed. this.. it produces a hole you can throw a cat through.. |
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Cant I just rack the slide of the shotgun until they keel over?
I would apply a standard defensive response, re-asses the target and go for a secondary defensive response, IE CNS or girdle. ETA the tempo that I shoot is dependent on how far the target is. Naturally this is all well and fine on a square range. If it came down to me using my weapon I have no idea of waht will transpire. I will just shoot to stop the threat. |
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Shoot what you are aiming at untill its dead. You can worry about your grouping after that.
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You are going to be moving, the target is going to be moving. You are going to be stressed. Try for the smaller group because it is going to open up in a real-life shooting anyways.
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Quoted: I would recommend sending them as straight as possible. The target's movement will provide the deviation. It has worked before...... Good point. |
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You are going to be moving, the target is going to be moving. You are going to be stressed. Try for the smaller group because it is going to open up in a real-life shooting anyways. I fully agree with that. |
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10mm: No follow up shot needed. this.. it produces a hole you can throw a cat through.. So just racking the slide on a 10mm, causes folks to pass out in fear.... |
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Shots very close together cause less damage and may inflict less pain (I have no desire to find out) than shots spread out further, at least I have heard that theory before and it seems plausible. In a real fight though I don't think anyone is going to do anything more than think 'FUCK FUCK SHOOT HIM AGAIN, FUCK" not "Oh I think I'll place the next round 5" away from the last one at 11:00.'
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Quoted: I have always shot expert in quals. The other day I had the opportunity to do some FATS training. Delivering accurate hits on a moving target is not easy. I had some scenarios that had a 50% miss ratio. In a force on force class as a bad guy I have found rounds shot into my foot and a bunch into my arms. When you are running all over the place cackling evilly and shooting, your opponent seems to have trouble making tight little groups in the middle of your chest. |
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Maybe deaccurizing of pistols will be the next "must-have" modification. I would recommend consulting the carnies the operate the "shoot out the star game". Those BB's come out of the barrel all over the place!!! |
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10mm: No follow up shot needed. this.. it produces a hole you can throw a cat through.. So just racking the slide on a 10mm, causes folks to pass out in fear.... its a distintive chach-chink sound.. I actualy have to wear hearing protection when I cycle the slide or I will end up crapping my pants. |
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Attended a class the other day. One part stressed making very accurate basically clover leaf shoots and then it's better to spread the shots out in actual combat shooting. Sounds like an excuse for using a Mini-14 |
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Shoot what you are aiming at untill its dead. You can worry about your grouping after that. Well said! |
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When you are as bad of a shot as I am, you don't have to worry about such things
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I have always shot expert in quals. The other day I had the opportunity to do some FATS training. Delivering accurate hits on a moving target is not easy. I had some scenarios that had a 50% miss ratio. So you're saying that your hits were closer to the 6" apart guideline than the cloverleaf guideline? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Probably already said, but I was always told to aim straight, the person will probably be moving and that will spread out the impact points.
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10mm: No follow up shot needed. this.. it produces a hole you can throw a cat through.. Plus the cat scratching and clawing as it tries to grab onto something as you throw it through enhances the damage in the wound channel. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I have always shot expert in quals. The other day I had the opportunity to do some FATS training. Delivering accurate hits on a moving target is not easy. I had some scenarios that had a 50% miss ratio. So you're saying that your hits were closer to the 6" apart guideline than the cloverleaf guideline? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile On a moving target? Yes. So if you are shooting 6" groups on a flat stationary target how spread out are they going to be on a moving target? |
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This is funny. I can see it now.
Hey there bad guy, yeah you scumbag, hold still because I want to shot you multiple times in a cloverleaf type fashion and it's real important that I get an impressive grouping. I vote for .45 cal as close to the middle and as many times as possible. Maybe when I'm done you can drop a bowling ball through the resulting passage way without it getting any goo on it. |
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This was the reason why the instructor I went to used paper plates instead of targets with bullseyes. He said that as long as you can put ALL your rounds inside a space as big as a paper plate on the chest, that was likely going to be a serious wound to the target.
For the people I've taught to shoot, I use typing paper and then move to paper-plate sized (but more traditional) bullseye rings. Both would equate to painful, debilitating hits on the human torso, but the rings give me some idea of how they're handling the gun. |
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Lol that always bothered me in Collateral...
"we're dealing with a professional here, look at those groups, millimeters apart" pointing to 2 holes in the chest... |
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Assuming they are all hits, it seems to make sense that you would get more effect on the target with shots that are spaced apart. I've been trained to shoot as fast as possible while still keeping them on the target. That invariably means that I'm not shooting tight little groups on silhouettes.
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I'll stick to trying to get shots in to center mass as accurately as possible and as quickly as possible and then I'll be very happy and have bragging rights if I am still alive and there is a nice tight group or I am still alive and he is dead with a big sloppy group in chest.
Either way the key for me is to be alive at the end of the encounter. The goal is to not waste energy worrying about whether or not a close group or a large group is more lethal/apt to be a fight stopper. It is my opinion that multiple shots in the chest or face or ankle is not going to be pleasant and when it comes down to it I want to make sure it is not pleasant for him/her. |
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Go ahead and shoot those tiny clover leafs in practice.
When the lead starts flying your direction, your groups will spread out nicely. |
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Go ahead and shoot those tiny clover leafs in practice. When the lead starts flying your direction, your groups will spread out nicely. Nice how that sort of works itself out eh? |
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