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Posted: 9/7/2010 3:36:06 PM EDT
Larry Vickers says on Tactical Arms that Buckshot is a poor choice because it spreads out too much at distance. Most tactical shotguns are Cyl choke. Why shouldn't they be Modified and would that solve the pattern issue?

Also is there a big difference in useability between 2 3/4 shells and 3" shells with buckshot? Seems recoil would be much more managable with 2 3/4.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:38:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 3:46:14 PM EDT by MonkTx]
Sounds like the guy is an idiot or he isn't talking about "across the room" distances.

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:39:15 PM EDT
It is fine for Home defence.. You will find your self in very hot water with the D.A., if you blast someone at 50 yards and scream self defence..
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:39:20 PM EDT
You can put any choke you like on buckshot. I prefer Modified on the house gun, puts the effective pattern just a LITTLE further out there.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:41:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MonkTx:
Sounds like the guy is an idiot or he isn't talking about "across the room" distances.

I'm guessing he's a gun guy so I'm gonna go with idiot for now.


LAV = Not an idiot. He was talking about extended distances 25 yards or so. Up close the spread is neglible with out any choke, just one big fist sized hole. So Cyl doesn't make a difference up close, and causes too much spread at distance as expected.

So what about mod for buckshot? What do folks use to shoot bucks with?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:43:15 PM EDT
run a modified choke It groups buck pretty decent and you can still shoot rifled slugs out of it. Anything tighter is a no go for slugs.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:44:46 PM EDT
It depends on the buckshot load, more specifically, the wad. A lot of companies are putting different wads in their loads to control spread. The best thing to do is pattern your gun at the maximum range you would engage with it. Try a bunch of different loads from different manufacturers.

Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:45:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Badlatitude:
run a modified choke It groups buck pretty decent and you can still shoot rifled slugs out of it. Anything tighter is a no go for slugs.


I've shot rifled slugs from a 1980's Full Choke 870 Wingmaster many times. Never had a problem.

TRG
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:47:23 PM EDT
I shoot Coyotes with #4 buck out to 60/70 yards.. Shooting a full choke.. I golden BBed one at 96 yards once using my Beretta 1201fp with cylinder bore choke.. and it only took 6 round to get one in the right spot
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:48:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 3:51:12 PM EDT by VBC]
I've killed deer out to 70 yards with a 30" full choke Remington 1100 3" magnum. At full gallop catching glimpses between trees. (The deer, not me.) See if you can do that easily with a rifle.


Buckshot from an imp. cyl. or cyl. and 18" barrel is pretty much done past 20 yards. Pattern grows way too wide past that distance.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:48:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 3:49:18 PM EDT by MonkTx]
Originally Posted By M4-AK:
Originally Posted By MonkTx:
Sounds like the guy is an idiot or he isn't talking about "across the room" distances.

I'm guessing he's a gun guy so I'm gonna go with idiot for now.


LAV = Not an idiot. He was talking about extended distances 25 yards or so. Up close the spread is neglible with out any choke, just one big fist sized hole. So Cyl doesn't make a difference up close, and causes too much spread at distance as expected.

So what about mod for buckshot? What do folks use to shoot bucks with?


I stand corrected.

In my case, I sawed off my barrel to 19.5 inches so it is a cylinder bore now and patterns pretty tight at room distances. Need to try it out at longer distances to see what it does.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 3:49:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 3:59:44 PM EDT by 1bamashooter]
Not a short barreled shotgun but I have killed deer at 80-90 yds with full choked shottys that had 28 and 30" barrels. My A5 mag is deadly at ext range.


All shot with 00 buck
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:01:55 PM EDT
The maximum effective range of YOUR shotgun with YOUR ammo is whatever distance it will keep 100% of the pellets on target. Stray pellets equal criminal and civil liability.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:25:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4-AK:
Larry Vickers says on Tactical Arms that Buckshot is a poor choice because it spreads out too much at distance.

Has he not heard of Flite Control? You can push the distance at which you can get hits on an human torso out pretty far with it, but the problem becomes that you lose a whole lot of penetration once you get out that far. Spheroids do not have good aerodynamics and the same properties make poor penetration after impact.
That's why you switch to slug. The slug band is typically determined at 25 yards plus in pretty much every class I've ever taken, to offset both the widened pattern and loss of velocity from buck.
LAV's statement doesn't make a lot of sense, but that may be because I didn't see what he actually said or maybe the context.
Most tactical shotguns are Cyl choke. Why shouldn't they be Modified and would that solve the pattern issue?

Because a lot of defensive shotgun rounds are made with a C or possibly IC choke in mind, and developed under the assumption that that is what they will be used in.
The solution to the pattern issue is Flite Control or possibly a Vang rework.
Also is there a big difference in useability between 2 3/4 shells and 3" shells with buckshot? Seems recoil would be much more managable with 2 3/4.

3" rounds give you more recoil for very little return.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:26:56 PM EDT
3" magnum gives you more pellets.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:37:03 PM EDT
Season 1 disc 3 Tactical Arms, the Remington 870. He made a shot on a steel plate at 25yds with buck shot and two pellets hit the plate. He says the rest of the pellets have lawyers attached.

So will mod choke typically pattern tightly at 25 yds?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:49:02 PM EDT
Flite control or Vang Comp System tight patterns will be the benefit...
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 4:57:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 5:00:57 PM EDT by VBC]
Originally Posted By M4-AK:
Season 1 disc 3 Tactical Arms, the Remington 870. He made a shot on a steel plate at 25yds with buck shot and two pellets hit the plate. He says the rest of the pellets have lawyers attached.

So will mod choke typically pattern tightly at 25 yds?


It might, but probably not much improvement. Buckshot and barrel length / choke combo is funny. You have to experiment to see which one patterns the best. But generally, the longer the barrel and the tighter the choke, the tighter the pattern out to longer distance.

If you're thinking of holding a 20" pattern with buckshot out to like 40 yards+, in general, you're going to be looking at something with a 28" + barrel with full choke. However, I haven't played around with the new Flight Control stuff. That stuff looks like the cat's meow.

The thing that is great about shotguns is they are quick aiming guns. Great for hitting things that at close range that run or fly where fractions of a second count. You shoulder it, throw the bead on target and pull. No lining up a front blade in the rear goal post.

But in order for it to work like that, the shotgun has to fit you so it points to your natural point of aim when you shoulder it.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 5:34:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4-AK:
Season 1 disc 3 Tactical Arms, the Remington 870. He made a shot on a steel plate at 25yds with buck shot and two pellets hit the plate. He says the rest of the pellets have lawyers attached.

How long ago was that filmed? The reason I ask is that Flite Control has been around for years, and Vang has been around since the 90s. Both are widely known, and they have both enabled shooters to push the A (basically one hole from the shot load without spread) and B (starting to get spread distance to pattern being too wide to entirely land on a torso) horizon out a lot farther than normally expected. It used to be that 25 yards was the outside of this range and that past that you selected slug. Flite Control is now thought of as the round that makes the Vang choke obsolete.
None of this new, or even unheard of. I'm kind of surprised that LAV is making this point.
So will mod choke typically pattern tightly at 25 yds?

Maybe. Choke is the major determining factors in shot spread and pattern, and it is difficult to predetermine how a particular load will behave. Even loads of the same size and pellet count will vary by manufacturer, and two identical shotguns will pattern the exact same load completely differently.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 7:53:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 7:58:58 PM EDT by Fields_Overseer]
Originally Posted By M4-AK:
Larry Vickers says on Tactical Arms that Buckshot is a poor choice because it spreads out too much at distance. Most tactical shotguns are Cyl choke. Why shouldn't they be Modified and would that solve the pattern issue?

Also is there a big difference in useability between 2 3/4 shells and 3" shells with buckshot? Seems recoil would be much more managable with 2 3/4.


vang comp modifies shotgun barrels to have a longer throat or something(been a LONG time since i read up on them). It greatly reduces pattern size, coupled with federal flight control youd have tight groups ad decent distances. It also reduces recoil a little bit(felt recoil).

3" has more pellets = more mass = more recoil. But im 6' 150# or less(skinny as fuck) and 3" shells are no problem to stay on target with. It just takes practice.

I have a 20" smoothbore slug barrel (rifle sights) and at 25 yds all pellets stay on the body. I shot 5 shots and held the target up to my chest... if my arms were up 2 or 3 pellets would have grazed my side and not "hit" but (12 pellet 2-3/4" "magnums" by remmington) 10 or 11 pellets would hit the torso with the vast majority going into the vitals. A shotgun is one of the BEST weapons for unarmored targets. That said i prefer my ar which is why I said "one of".
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 8:07:51 PM EDT
The standard rule of thumb for pattern spread is an inch per yard. So, 12 yards = a 12" pattern. Some loads will pattern better and some will pattern worse. Bigger shot sizes do not "flow" as well through forcing cones or tighter chokes, and buckshot is also typically pretty soft, close to pure lead actually. These three things lead to more shot deformation and wider spreads. YMMV, and the only way to know for sure what works best in your gun is to shoot as many loads as possible––-and shoot several rounds to obtain an average performance figure.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 6:49:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By machinisttx:
the only way to know for sure what works best in your gun is to shoot as many loads as possible––-and shoot several rounds to obtain an average performance figure.


Yep.

I've got shotguns and they each prefer a different load.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 6:56:40 AM EDT
I have shot human size targets at 25 yards with a 870 pump using buckshot and usually had one flyer.
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