We Should Bring Back Debtor's Prison - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - We Should Bring Back Debtor's Prison (Page 2 of 3)

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:15:20 AM EDT

[#1]

We should start a stupid internet poster prison.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:20:25 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
No. If you don't like the risk of not being paid, don't accept the contract.

How about some personal responsibility on the creditor's side. It is NOT a risk free transaction.

+1

Gene Simmons was on Kansas City radio the other day saying what a great country America is.

" it rewards your failures as well as your successes by allowing you to declare chapter 11 or 13 and start over".

This is as it should be.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:22:42 AM EDT

[#3]

I don't want it to become criminal and put them in prison, but something should be done make them pay.

The laws are far too lenient with deadbeats.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:22:59 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It just irritates me to no end when people buy brand new cars, or a $500,000 house on a $50,000 salary and then can't pay for it.

They can't do it unless someone is willing to lend them money.

Only a dumbass or a crook who knows the gov will bail them out, lends money to a high risk person/s.

Yup. My wife used to work for a big name bank. They lent money out like it was going out of style in the late 1990s until she was no longer employed there. They knew the risks but all they saw was the rewards and more rewards so it was short term thinking. I'm pretty sure with a $100.00 in a checking account and a $10.00/hour job you could have gotten a $200,000.00 loan in 2002.

What is interesting now (and not being reported) is the amount of mortgage fraud prosecutions occurring. There were a lot of people that played the system both from the side of receiving the money and those who handed it out. I always found it interesting my wife got bonus based on how many "sales" (i.e. loans, accounts, etc.) she had. They were encouraging their employees to sell their services and sell they did.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:23:47 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No. If you don't like the risk of not being paid, don't accept the contract.

How about some personal responsibility on the creditor's side. It is NOT a risk free transaction.

That may be, but how it is set up now is not right. How about all the people just walking away from their home mortgages? (the thread from yesterday)

Your problem is government bailouts with the banks, and lax bankruptcy laws.

And there's the answer.

The Capitalist System has checks and balances built into it. If left alone, these checks and balances will work rather well.

But when the gooberment starts sticking its nose into business, you start having problems.

In the past, if a person borrowed money and failed to pay it back, his credit was ruined and no one would loan him any money. Why? Because they knew that he was "high risk" and was likely to default. But gooberment bailouts have polluted the system.

Also, banks and credit unions used to be very frugal about loans. Back when I was a young man, I applied for a rather small loan from my credit union. I had to meet with a representative of the credit union and explain what I planned on using the money for and how I was going to be able to make the payments. Then, my loan had to go before the board at their next meeting and be approved. BTW, many loans were turned down in those days.

Now, credit card companies send anyone, even pet dogs, credit cards and almost beg you to borrow money on them. The world is crazy.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:25:22 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No. If you don't like the risk of not being paid, don't accept the contract.

How about some personal responsibility on the creditor's side. It is NOT a risk free transaction.

That may be, but how it is set up now is not right. How about all the people just walking away from their home mortgages? (the thread from yesterday)

Eventually those companies will go out of business and more responsable comapnies would take their place ....

If we allowed capitalism to work properly

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:26:03 AM EDT

[#7]

Lol, Wut? You mean like turkey has? Where you can go and have sex with the women that are working off their incarcerated husbands debt?

Yea, thats a fucking fantastic idea. Add more people to a goddamn prison. I hope you rethink your "idea". I think personal responsibility is great though. More people need to practice it.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:26:27 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:

No. If you don't like the risk of not being paid, don't accept the contract.

How about some personal responsibility on the creditor's side. It is NOT a risk free transaction.

That may be, but how it is set up now is not right. How about all the people just walking away from their home mortgages? (the thread from yesterday)

The bank has recourse, starting with the lien on the property.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:26:43 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:

No. If you don't like the risk of not being paid, don't accept the contract.

How about some personal responsibility on the creditor's side. It is NOT a risk free transaction.

That may be, but how it is set up now is not right. How about all the people just walking away from their home mortgages? (the thread from yesterday)

Your problem is government bailouts with the banks, and lax bankruptcy laws.

And there's the answer.

The Capitalist System has checks and balances built into it. If left alone, these checks and balances will work rather well.

But when the gooberment starts sticking its nose into business, you start having problems.

In the past, if a person borrowed money and failed to pay it back, his credit was ruined and no one would loan him any money. Why? Because they knew that he was "high risk" and was likely to default. But gooberment bailouts have polluted the system.

Also, banks and credit unions used to be very frugal about loans. Back when I was a young man, I applied for a rather small loan from my credit union. I had to meet with a representative of the credit union and explain what I planned on using the money for and how I was going to be able to make the payments. Then, my loan had to go before the board at their next meeting and be approved. BTW, many loans were turned down in those days.

Now, credit card companies send anyone, even pet dogs, credit cards and almost beg you to borrow money on them. The world is crazy.

Exactly. I remember my parents dreading going to the bank to apply for a loan or financing anything.

In the 1990s credit was cheap and anyone alive or dead could have a huge credit limit and buy a nice house...at least initially.

I think banks have put on the brakes a bit but with as much money has been pumped into the economy there is probably a lot of "credit" floating out there still. I also think that since the banks got the bailout this has played a role in that area.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:27:12 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

It just irritates me to no end when people buy brand new cars, or a $500,000 house on a $50,000 salary and then can't pay for it.

It's their problem, not yours.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:29:39 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It just irritates me to no end when people buy brand new cars, or a $500,000 house on a $50,000 salary and then can't pay for it.

Who is the fool in that situation? The person who asked for the loan or the person who thinks they will pay it back?

BINGO.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:29:56 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It just irritates me to no end when people buy brand new cars, or a $500,000 house on a $50,000 salary and then can't pay for it.

It's their problem, not yours.

The effects roll onto the tax payer...

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:32:12 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

It just irritates me to no end when people buy brand new cars, or a $500,000 house on a $50,000 salary and then can't pay for it.

Great.

Irritation is a fantastic reason to pass a law that would potentially... I mean definitely deprive some folks of their freedom.

Explain to me exactly how the hell someone is supposed to pay debts when they are locked up, for not paying debts?

They are in no position to pay, and instead we have to pay.

Great idea.

Turn around Magellan, common sense is back the other way.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:32:42 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

The federal government needs to quit bailing out the creditors who fail.

The federal government needs to quit imposing absurd regulation on creditors, that causes them to need a bail-out...

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:32:53 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:

It just irritates me to no end when people buy brand new cars, or a $500,000 house on a $50,000 salary and then can't pay for it.

It's their problem, not yours.

The effects roll onto the tax payer...

Kind of like locking them up?

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:33:07 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
It just irritates me to no end when people buy brand new cars, or a $500,000 house on a $50,000 salary and then can't pay for it.

And it irritates me when someone comes up with some sort of stupid idea, that ends up bending everyone over. Your a Senator, aren't you?

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:33:58 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No. If you don't like the risk of not being paid, don't accept the contract.

How about some personal responsibility on the creditor's side. It is NOT a risk free transaction.

And how do the banks do that? Keep a video probe up your ass all the time?

Greater creditor burden would decrease the availability of credit, particularly to people in low-income areas, contrary to government and societal efforts.

It would also require that loan volume go down, because it would necessitate more small lenders who can personally know clients, or put an increased research and maintenance burden on the large ones.

Either way, fewer people get loans, and those that do, it's more expensive. The nation's expectations of service are built on low-cost models enabled by economies of scale. This is impossible if we go to a Ma-and-Pa architecture where everyone knows everyone, or if a bank needs a PI to trail a loan applicant for two months before coming to the table.

Banks have their paperwork in order. The contract is the contract, and provided the banks don't break it, they've held their end of the bargain. The debtors are the ones largely breaking these contracts today. If they did not read or understand it before, perhaps they shouldn't have bought a home/car/whatever.

The whole concept that a mortgage is a "risk" applies to some extent, but it's ignorant to regard a systemic progressive/anti-corporate effort to defraud the repayment system as commensurate with "their end of the bargain."

As for debtor's prison, I don't think the OP means lock up everyone on hard times. But there is definitely a class of people who are experts at cheating the system to live better than most of us here do while earning less. I would be open to criminalizing habitual default as a class of fraud (if it's not already, I'm not that motivated to look it up).

Yep.

If they are cheating the system, they should be imprisoned for fraud. (And I agree that many are, and should be locked up).

Those who have walked away from their houses have taken a legal, within the contract option to do so. The bank gets the house. This is 100% allowed by the contracts that both the lendor and debtor signed, the contracts are not being broken. I would say that the banks did not read the contracts, or understand the risks very well. Tough shit.

"To big to fail" banks, and .gov bailouts when they fuck their shit up is the problem. And it's one the market should work out. Clearly, credit became to easy to get, and now we all pay the consequence.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:34:04 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Or at least do something about people not paying their debts. It's called personal responsibility.

BTW - I'm not saying that one missed credit card payment should get you sent away, but a history of it is another matter.

Discuss.

How about indentured servants?
It's called slavery. It was a bad idea then, it's a bad idea now.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:37:03 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The federal government needs to quit bailing out the creditors who fail.

The federal government needs to quit imposing absurd regulation on creditors, that causes them to need a bail-out...

This too. The function of the government in the markets should be to insure that books don't get cooked, and there is a level playing field. Little else.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:40:22 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Or at least do something about people not paying their debts. It's called personal responsibility.

BTW - I'm not saying that one missed credit card payment should get you sent away, but a history of it is another matter.

Discuss.

Yes.... you are 100 % right!!!! Let's lock up MILLIONS of people who lost their jobs because of a global financial meltdown. Let's feed them, clothe them, provide them with free medical care in these prisons. Oh yeah, their kids and pets will need a place to stay too! Are you volunteering? What a patriot you are!!!

Schmuck.

To be fair, those people share a 50% 'split' of the blame for that meltdown - the other half going to government for stupid regulations like CRA.

Posted: 9/7/2010 10:42:28 AM EDT

[#21]

Nope, the system is fine how it is minus government bailouts. I know people first hand that have never made an attempt to pay off debt and they are still able to get loans and credit. If someone is stupid enough to lend them money they are stupid enough to lose it.

Posted: 9/7/2010 11:02:29 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Do yourself a favor, read up on a topic before you post.

Sound, sound advice. I hope he reads it.

I think this thread is not going the way the OP thought it would.

Agreed....

Debtors prisons do exist. try missing a few child support payments, alimony payments or don't pay your taxes.
Debtors prisons are alive and well.

Posted: 9/7/2010 11:46:07 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

I want to see Douchebags' Prisons.

You could have a guidos wing and a ravers wing right off the bat.

Posted: 9/7/2010 11:47:51 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Stop lending forcing lenders to give money to folks who can't afford to pay it back.

Posted: 9/7/2010 11:51:01 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Lol, Wut? You mean like turkey has? Where you can go and have sex with the women that are working off their incarcerated husbands debt?

Yea, thats a fucking fantastic idea. Add more people to a goddamn prison. I hope you rethink your "idea". I think personal responsibility is great though. More people need to practice it.

I actually saw one of those. We had a local driver of our shuttle who stopped off at this little cluster of buildings. He walked up to what looked like a guard shack, plopped down some paper, got poke chip looking thing, picked a door and came out ten minutes later.

Posted: 9/7/2010 11:52:57 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Or at least do something about people not paying their debts. It's called personal responsibility.

BTW - I'm not saying that one missed credit card payment should get you sent away, but a history of it is another matter.

Discuss.

How are they supposed to pay back the debt if they're in prison?

I guarantee you that if I set up a debtor's prison, it would be self sustaining and the inmates would make a small amount that they would be able to apply to their debt. Whenever they paid it off they could get out, that simple. If they never paid it off, at least they'd help keep the lights on in the prison

.

Posted: 9/7/2010 11:55:38 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Exactly what we need, more gov't involvement with business. more people in prison that we get to support with our taxes. Fuck it I am totally down with the gov't taking more tax money from me... Oh wait no I am not fine with that.

OP stupid idea. All this does is make us work to support the prisoners for their fuck ups.

Credit is a risk proposition. I feel more sorry for the folks who are getting hammered now that tried to live responsibly but are now so screwed up with job losses that it has wrecked them too.

Not everyone hit by this lack of crisis management is irresponsible.

They could be privately run and administrated by the lending companies. Don't want to risk going to prison? Don't get a loan with them.

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:06:17 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
I think its a great idea, for old lecherous rich fuckers wanting some 20 year old pussy. At least that's how it worked in England.

Hey honey, you're cute... I can help you get out of this mess. I have plenty of money, and a cold bed.

Hell it works pretty well right now even without the threat of jail time.

I gots to gets me some money.

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:09:21 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Or at least do something about people not paying their debts. It's called personal responsibility.

BTW - I'm not saying that one missed credit card payment should get you sent away, but a history of it is another matter.

Discuss.

Hey since you seem to be such a financialy up front guy with no money trouble , and are passing out such great free advice to those that are having money trouble , here is some advice for you on the back side .

BUY A FUCKING MEMBERSHIP WITH ALL THAT SAVED MONEY YOU HAVE IN THE BANK THERE BUDDY BOY

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:12:55 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No. If you don't like the risk of not being paid, don't accept the contract.

How about some personal responsibility on the creditor's side. It is NOT a risk free transaction.

That may be, but how it is set up now is not right. How about all the people just walking away from their home mortgages? (the thread from yesterday)

Had banks been a little more selective about borrowers they chose to work with, perhaps they wouldn't be in such deep soup. Of course, some of the blame has to go to the federal .gov, but one certainly can't solely blame borrowers who welshed.

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:15:17 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Or at least do something about people not paying their debts. It's called personal responsibility.

BTW - I'm not saying that one missed credit card payment should get you sent away, but a history of it is another matter.

Discuss.

Debtors prison is abolished because of the slippery slope. It is gone and it should be gone. Even though you do not think that one missed credit card payment etc, that is exactly what it will become. LENDERS also have a personal responsibility in the scenario - lending is a form of gambling and when your debtor doesn't pay, it is a loss. People who cannot repay loans should not be lent money - that is why we have a credit rating.

In the event of outright fraud, we already have laws in place and you will go to prison.

So are you saying that all the risk leans on the lender? What about the responsibility of the borrower to pay? Honest question.

Honest answer is yes, the lender is ultimately responsible for picking borrowers whom they reasonably believe to be the lowest risks. The days of zero-down, everyone who asks can have a second mortgage to finance their dream purchases showed that.

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:17:25 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No. If you don't like the risk of not being paid, don't accept the contract.

How about some personal responsibility on the creditor's side. It is NOT a risk free transaction.

That may be, but how it is set up now is not right. How about all the people just walking away from their home mortgages? (the thread from yesterday)

Your problem is government bailouts with the banks, and lax bankruptcy laws.

And there's the answer.

The Capitalist System has checks and balances built into it. If left alone, these checks and balances will work rather well.

But when the gooberment starts sticking its nose into business, you start having problems.

In the past, if a person borrowed money and failed to pay it back, his credit was ruined and no one would loan him any money. Why? Because they knew that he was "high risk" and was likely to default. But gooberment bailouts have polluted the system.

Also, banks and credit unions used to be very frugal about loans. Back when I was a young man, I applied for a rather small loan from my credit union. I had to meet with a representative of the credit union and explain what I planned on using the money for and how I was going to be able to make the payments. Then, my loan had to go before the board at their next meeting and be approved. BTW, many loans were turned down in those days.

Now, credit card companies send anyone, even pet dogs, credit cards and almost beg you to borrow money on them. The world is crazy.

I recall my parents being excited about getting their first loan to buy a house at the low low interest rate of 18 percent.

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:17:39 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

No. If you don't like the risk of not being paid, don't accept the contract.

How about some personal responsibility on the creditor's side. It is NOT a risk free transaction.

That may be, but how it is set up now is not right. How about all the people just walking away from their home mortgages? (the thread from yesterday)

What about them? It's a business decision. A home mortgage is a business transaction, not a blood oath.....

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:25:30 PM EDT

[#34]

why should I pay my debt? the .gov don't pay theirs

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:25:36 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No. If you don't like the risk of not being paid, don't accept the contract.

How about some personal responsibility on the creditor's side. It is NOT a risk free transaction.

That may be, but how it is set up now is not right. How about all the people just walking away from their home mortgages? (the thread from yesterday)

Walking away from a mortgage is neither moral or immoral. When you sign that mortgage document, you agree to pay monthly a set amount of money agreed to by yourself and the lendor. The house is collateral. If you don't pay the mortgage, you give up the house, and in return, your credit takes gets shot to hell. It's that simple...you have lived up to the document...you no longer pay...they take the house. That simple.

If you're in a house and owe $250K on the house, and the value of the house is only 125K...you'd be a fool to stay in the house, and not get out from under it.
I call it a smart business decision to walk away on the part of the person in the house.

How do you feel about banks that did not do their due diligence in checking to make sure that those individuals acquiring mortgages and buying houses were able to pay? There is culpability on both sides of this coin...and I don't feel sorry for the banks one little bit.

Hax

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:34:03 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
The federal government needs to quit bailing out the creditors who fail.

I'd rather see this. When did it become the job of the people to bail out the ones who made bad choices???

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:37:44 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
why should I pay my debt? the .gov don't pay theirs

Funny how honor only seems to cut one way isn't it ?

The debtor and creditor both had the chance to understand the risks and potential rewards involved

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:39:06 PM EDT

[#38]

uh no..

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:57:02 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

No. If you don't like the risk of not being paid, don't accept the contract.

How about some personal responsibility on the creditor's side. It is NOT a risk free transaction.

Uh, yea. That charge a higher interest rate for a reason.

Posted: 9/7/2010 12:58:07 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Do yourself a favor, read up on a topic before you post.

Sound, sound advice. I hope he reads it.

I think this thread is not going the way the OP thought it would.

Agreed....

Debtors prisons do exist. try missing a few child support payments, alimony payments or don't pay your taxes.

Debtors prisons are alive and well.

Can't speak about the first two, but it's pretty hard to get put in prison for failing to pay taxes. Wesley Snipes criminally failed to pay millions he owed on taxes for years, and it took a lot of effort on the Feds part to convict him and get him thrown in prison, and I believe he got no prison time in the end.

Posted: 9/7/2010 1:08:15 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
The federal government needs to quit bailing out the creditors who fail.

China needs to quit bailing out the federal government that fails.

Posted: 9/7/2010 1:11:02 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

why should I pay my debt? the .gov don't pay theirs

That's a good point right there. I'll vote for the OP's debtor's prison, as long as we have an iron clad guarantee that every single politician who ever voted for deficit spending will be incarcerated until the National Debt is paid off.

Posted: 9/7/2010 1:18:21 PM EDT

[#43]

So you want to take pressure off taxpayers by putting people a place funded by taxpayers? You might want to go back to the drawing board on this one.

Posted: 9/7/2010 1:21:21 PM EDT

[#44]

Posted: 9/7/2010 1:47:22 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

As for debtor's prison, I don't think the OP means lock up everyone on hard times. But there is definitely a class of people who are experts at cheating the system to live better than most of us here do while earning less. I would be open to criminalizing habitual default as a class of fraud (if it's not already, I'm not that motivated to look it up).

Yeah, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup.....

The government-backed Financial Oligarchy has looted faaaaaaaarrrr more of America's wealth than Credit Card scammers.

Posted: 9/7/2010 1:51:48 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Do yourself a favor, read up on a topic before you post.

Sound, sound advice. I hope he reads it.

I think this thread is not going the way the OP thought it would.

Agreed....

Debtors prisons do exist. try missing a few child support payments, alimony payments or don't pay your taxes.
Debtors prisons are alive and well.

Can't speak about the first two, but it's pretty hard to get put in prison for failing to pay taxes. Wesley Snipes criminally failed to pay millions he owed on taxes for years, and it took a lot of effort on the Feds part to convict him and get him thrown in prison, and I believe he got no prison time in the end.

I've never heard of someone in prison for failure to pay child support or alimony... all sorts of other stuff, but not prison.

Posted: 9/7/2010 2:22:59 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Do yourself a favor, read up on a topic before you post.

Sound, sound advice. I hope he reads it.

I think this thread is not going the way the OP thought it would.

Agreed....

Debtors prisons do exist. try missing a few child support payments, alimony payments or don't pay your taxes.
Debtors prisons are alive and well.

Can't speak about the first two, but it's pretty hard to get put in prison for failing to pay taxes. Wesley Snipes criminally failed to pay millions he owed on taxes for years, and it took a lot of effort on the Feds part to convict him and get him thrown in prison, and I believe he got no prison time in the end.

If your county lists active warrants a good 25% will be FTA child support