As I understand it, and I could be wrong...

1. A person MUST accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior in order to be saved/get into heaven.

2. Jews do NOT believe in Jesus as either their Lord or Savior, but merely a prophet.

3. Jews are Gods "chosen people" and have a confirmed reservation in Heaven.

So can someone EDUCATED explain the "apparent" contradiction insimple terms without a lot of doublespeak?

And by Jew, does this mean the Jewish race derived from the Hebrew tribe exclusively? Or the followers of Judaism? Was Sammy Davis a Jew?

Can someone please enlighten me? I've never seen a serious answer to this basic question.

SteyrAUG;

Have you asked these questions in a church vs. the internet?

Depends on the book.

Yep, and that is where I encountered the doublespeak if I got answers at all. Most seemed pretty annoyed that I'd even ask the question. Best answer I got was people shouldn't "think too much." After all "knowledge" was our original sin.

OK, check.



OK, check.



OK, but it was my understanding that the Jews will still get into heaven/be saved without accepting Jesus. Are ALL Jews damned to hell for practicing their faith (ie. NOT accepting Jesus)?



Which is it the Bible makes referrence to? The Jewish race or those of the Jewish faith?

Where is Eric, Macallan, wiggy and Garandman when you need them?

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Quoted:
SteyrAUG;

Have you asked these questions in a church vs. the internet?



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Yep, and that is where I encountered the doublespeak if I got answers at all. Most seemed pretty annoyed that I'd even ask the question. Best answer I got was people shouldn't "think too much." After all "knowledge" was our original sin.
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Find a new Pastor/church.  That is not an acceptable answer.  

I can't answer this question at the level you need, but basically the Jews are looking for the Messiah, but they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah.  There is more than adequate evidence to prove that He is the Messiah.  Not the least of which is that He was to be a descended from the line of David.  All the genealogical records were destroyed (as I understand it) when the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. HTH.

ChuckT, this is every pastor/minister I ever talked too. They either didn't know or didn't know or appreciate the question.


thedave1164, thank you for taking the time to answer. And maybe I'm just not grasping it. So I restate the question...

"Are ALL Jews damned to hell for practicing their faith (ie. NOT accepting Jesus)?"

BTW, you more or less answered the others.

This kind of ties into something I was wondering about.

If you have to believe in Jebus to get into heaven, then what happened to "all those souls" that died before he was even alive? And what about infants who haven't been baptized and die prematurely, from illness/accident? They go to Hell?

Something else, and this will prolly send this thread in a dozen directions, but if mankind is descended from Adam (a Semite), then how does that explain the Asian, Caucasian and Negroid races?

So do Spain and Portugal still hold divine title over the western hemisphere?

Evidence such as?  

Also, what percentage of the jewish people are descended from the house of David?  Why is Jesus being of the house of David such a clincher in your eyes?

[i]Wonder if Jesus is online,,, [/i]

Forget the other races.  Barring some form of incest where did the next generation come from?

Subject to the old covenant.



If you haven't "heard the word" you are saved. For this reason missionaries have been damning souls to hell for eternity. If they'd just shut up already we'd ALL be saved having not heard the word.



Everyone is actually decendent from Noahs children being the only survivors of the flood. When Cain killed able he was "marked" and this is the explanation for "other" races. And probably why all minorites are killers, etc.

That still doesn't answer my question though. If everyone is descended from Adam, how can there be anyone but Semites? Unless there was another race that they intermarried with. Then that kind of throws a monkey wrench into the  we're all descended from Adam theory.

Thanks for asking these questions Steyr-AUG.I am going to try to clear up some of this for you. So far you have received some good answers and some not so good answers.
Everything, I say here, I  will try to back up with scripture and a reference for you or anyone to go to and make their own judgement.
Question #1. Yes, a person MUST accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior,in order to be saved.Saved, means eternity in Heaven, not saved means an eternity in hell, yes it exists!
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me".
Note, he said " I am THE way", not A way.
Once a person reaches an age of accountability, then they become responsible for the fate of their soul. The age of accountability varies from person to person and I cannot give a particular age, but I do not believe that the Lord condemns babys,toddlers, mentally handicapped or the slow to mature mentally to hell. This is subject to a wide interpretation.
Question #2. Yes, prophet and teacher.
Question #3.Again, read John 14:6. There is no mention of preference toward any one race,creed or religion, or that anyone is exempt.
Paul writes in Galations 3:26-28 You are alll sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male  nor female, for you who are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
From the two passages I have listed you can see Jews do not have a confirmed reservation in Heaven.
Only those who accept Christ as their personal Lord and Savior will be allowed into Heaven, this applies equally to everyone regardles of their race, color, creed or religion.
I have always felt that a "JEW" was a decendant of one of the 12 tribes of Israel.
As for contradictions between the old and the new testament, ignore the issue, since if you beleive that "ALL" of scripture contained in the Bible is the inspired word of God and God ids a perfect being, there can be no contradiction, only misunderstanding on our part.
As for doublespeak you have gotten from the church. God only allows his children (saved) to fully understand the words He has placed in the Bible.
If the person you asked the question to is not a born again believer, they will not completely understand scripture.

Hope this is of some help.

Lee

OK, back on track.

IF Jews are damned to hell for NOT accepting Jesus, and they DON'T, why are they they chosen people?

And I don't just mean in their eyes? I mean why are Christians so very concerned with them? They are in a word "heathens" as much as any other NON BELIEVER.

Why do Christians feel some obligation to them? Their country? Their welfare? Why not Taoist instead? They both believe in Jesus to the same extent.

Steyr, I always like your posts. I'm pretty ignorant but but the way I feel about it is it boils down to where you were born and what religion you were raised in. It appears all(most) of the religions have some pretty good basic rules to try and live by. If you were not born in a particular religion then one can simply pick one that fits your needs. Thats why 'ALL' of them have branched off from one another from the beginning. One group didn't like this or that and so they branched off to "The church of blah-blah-blah".You simply pick a shoe and if it fits ...wear it. I was born Christian and converted in 65 to Catholic...but over the past 10 years or so I'm leaning to Christian Orthodox....Just pick one...or don't.

I'm thinking about being a Neo-Confucion Nestorian Chhristian with a good dose of the Church of Dionisis thrown in for good measure.

I'm not going to quote scripture, because I am too lazy and mildly ignorant. But I understand the question and the answer.

The Jews are God's chosen people. Period. He picked them to nurse and to baby along. They managed to ignore Him, as most humans are apt to, so he hexed them, sorta. They are still his "favorites", so to speak, and he has big plans for some of them at the time of the second coming. Some 144,000 of them will convert at that time and go on to fulfill yet another prophecy.

The reason we are so concerned with their well being is this. Certain things must transpire before the Rapture and the second coming of Christ. These notable things take place in Israel. There is no mention of the United States in prophecy, so it is theorized that we do not exist as the country we now know at that time. So, our blessed way of life as we enjoy it now sort of hinges on the fact that Israel exists.

This is pretty boiled down and off the cuff, but I believe it is correct.

A church???

Ewwww Yeuch  pitttouuuuiii


Actually I have to go into a church on May the 17th to "celebrate" my very religous parents 50th anniversary....

So if you see a large FLASH in the northern sky......It will be me getting NUKED by your vengeful god!!

LOL

OK I'm new at this, so bear with me; the Jews started out as the chosen people thru Abraham.
They couldn't believe Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords was their Savior because he was one of them and they were all high and mighty and conceited bastards(Scribes and Pharisees).


They are coming to their senses slowly.  There are about 3000 in Israel who believe in Jesus Christ.  As an example[url]www.vicmord.com[/url]



Christians are supposed to feel an obligation to all people, but Israel is where it all will end.

Why do we believe that the Jews are Gods chosen people?

My take on the subject, is that they were Gods chosen people in the Old Testament and we as Christians accept the Old Testament as the inspired word of God as is the New Testament.

JESUS, was a JEW.

Christianity has its roots in Judaism

Read [i]Revelation 7[/i], 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel converted to Christianity will make up the 144,000 during the coming Great Tribulation. This passage is interpreted in several ways also, the 144,000 may be symbolic, to represent the entire church, or body of Christ.  [:)]

Lee

OK, but that only relates to the "race" of Jews. Not converted Jews like Sammy Davis Jr. More importantly many religious scholars here have pointed out that there are no more TRUE Jews (ie. those decendent from Abraham).

And if all you have left are unrelated heathens, why the kinship?

Wondeful double standard. They can be non believers and be fine. The rest of us are f*cked. Sounds like a special interest group. Jews got affirmative action with God.



But you said "so it is theorized that we do not exist as the country we now know at that time."  So wouldn't it be in OUR best interest to NOT help Israel? If after all, helping Israel beings about the second coming as well as the demise of the US. Personally the way I see it, all we gotta do is NOT help Israel to guarantee the future of the United States.

And people thought Hannhs "rapture post" was nuts. But there it is.

And finally "our blessed way of life as we enjoy it" depends upon us and NOT Israel. Israel was NOT THERE when we:

Fought for and gained our Independence.
Fought the War of 1812.
Fought World War I.
Fought World War II.

Israel was there and didn't do jack to help us with:

The Korean War
The Vietnam War
The Gulf War

unless you count contributing to our overall hardships due to the redirection of money and supplies to Israel that OUR guys needed.

144,000 isn't too many. Probably more Christians in China. Maybe we should go help them. But the rest of the Jews, other than the 144,000 are all non believing heathens going to hell right?

SA, does all of this boil down to a God likes Israel better than the rest of us argument?
If so, go right ahead and try to figure it all out and when you do share it with the rest of us.

What God has in mind for the USA, or any other country is not something I spend time pondering.

Living for him in my daily life, along with deepening my personal love relationship with him is what matters to me most.

If you are a Christian, I would most respectfully suggest that you consider all of the worthwhile Christian pursuits that are of kingdom value to devote your energy to. No flame intended to your original post though, it is good to ask questions, but be careful not to get too hung up on one issue. It can create a nasty case of tunnel vision. I know, I have been there.


I am not about to question God about who his favorites are. He is the creator of the universe and can do just exactly what and when He wants to!!!!!!!!!!!!!   [:)]

Lee

As far as I'm concerned, anyone claiming to be "God's chosen" is just as racist as a Nazi. And there seems to be a few of these around.

BTW, Sammy Davis Jr. was involved with the Church of Satan at one point. I can dig up a pic if you think I'm bs'ing.

There is no double standard.

The Jews who reject Christ are not getting in. They were shown in His day much more clearly then we can know that his credentials were legit. They refused to believe Him then, and they do still to this day. That makes them unsaved in God's eye.

The matter of the existance of the U.S. or any references to us in the Bible are scarce to non-existant. When the prophecies concerning Israel in the last days start to really unfold, we will be too weak or insignificant to warrant mention in a Biblical sense.

Unfortunately, those times look very close to me. I'm not in a big hurry to see our country marginalized to the point that we can't even send enough troops over to help out that we would at least get some vague Biblical reference like " The Great Eagle" or something.

Russia is mentioned, the Arab states are mentioned, but not us. That means that as a country we will be going through some bad crap of our own before they start sacrificing cattle at the Temple.

I'm not looking forward to that.

thats what all the hardware is for

OK.  Let's see it.

Cool, you'll fit right in with all the rest of um.[argue]

Busmaster, my browser would of course take this time to mess up. Do a search of "anton lavey + sammy davis jr." and you will find what I mentioned. Apologies in advance.

Jesus (Historical)

May have actually had a claim going back to the House of David to the title King of the Jews.  Usually we think of this as derisive but maybe not.
Probably was married - could not have been a Rabbi otherwise.

Certainly I'm no expert on the Bible but the passage about where Jesus performs his first miracle - turning water into wine - is interesting.  The occasion is a wedding feast and Mary seems to order the servants around.

Jesus family was likely fairly well off.  His mother had a friend at court - various ointments used were expensive and marks of the upper class.

I've asked why the Jews did not recognize Jesus and have been told (on this board) that because he didn't set the Jewish people free he was ignored.

That is because the Untied States didn't exist yet. And the MEN who wrote the scrolls that would become the Bible couldn't see the future any moe than Miss Cleo.

1. Correct
2. correct
3. I guess you could say they are the chosen people, but in the new testament, Romans 10:12 the Bible states: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call him.

So they must be saved also.  I think the Jewish people still believe they are living under the law which was done away with when Jesus was crucified.  Matthew 27: 51 has this to say. "And behold the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

The veil it talks about is the veil which divided the holy place where the priests entered from the holy of holies into which only the high priest might enter on the day of atonement.  (Exodus 26:31The tearing of the veil which was a type of the human body of Christ (Hebrews 10:20- By a new and living way which he hath consecrated for us through the veil that is to say his flesh) signified that a new and living way was opened for all believers into the very presence of God with no other sacrifice  except Christs. (Hebrews 9:1-15)

Hopefully this might answer some of your questions.

1. this is true ONLY if your a christian.

2. true

3. jesus cancels their confirmed reservation status (if you believe he is the christ.

4. two distinct religions. (no conflict)

5.  one group is jew the religion.
one group is jew the nationality/race

Correct, this is my understanding as well.

yes if you believe jesus is the christ then all jews go to hell.

That is how I understood it. So why do Christians love the DAMNED so damn much? At least in the case of the Jews, they really couldn't care about the rest of the damned.

Jews are special.
and we "love" them for many reasons.
we share a common history (Jesus was a Jew).
to many Christians wicca, Hindu, Budist and Muslim are considered satanic manifestations.  Jews are simply lost.  it is easier for many Christians to accept Jews because if a Jew were to believe one thing (Jesus is Christ) he could go to heaven.  due to 2000 years of killing and the crusades Muslims do not fall into this category.  

Many Christians are sympathetic to Jews because of the deaths in the German concentration camps.  forget all the death camps set up before and after that invalidate this argument.  we strangely only have museums of the Jewish concentration camps.  

like it or not we have a very powerful and Jewish or Jewish sympathetic economic and media community.  

I was talking to a "born again" at work (I'm Lutheran) he believes he is in a constant battle with Satan and that the "beast" has possessed "religions" like wicca, Hindu, Budist and the Muslims.  strangely Jews do not fall into this category.  weird, but then I can't discuss religious doctrine with him because he slips into a "God is talking to me and tells me what to believe."  (this sounds really scary to a Lutheran but hey they speak in toungs and roll around on the floor.

back to what I believe is your question.
why do we love the Jews.  the bible can be read to say that in the "end times" all nations will turn agansed Israel and a superpower will attack Israel and bring about the end of the world.  as long as America loves Israel (and the Jews) this revelation can't come to pass.  

As I understand it, and I could be wrong...

1. A person MUST accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior in order to be saved/get into heaven.

Yes.  Jesus Christ died on the cross as a substitute for every person in the human race.  He died for us all without exception.  We must only believe that fact to be saved.  It's that simple.  Believe and your in.  If you don't believe then you're out.  Unfortunately you're not out in the cold.

2. Jews do NOT believe in Jesus as either their Lord or Savior, but merely a prophet.

Yes many Jews believe that.  Some Jews believe in Christ.

3. Jews are Gods "chosen people" and have a confirmed reservation in Heaven.

Yes they are Gods "chosen people" but in this dispensation (time period)they must believe in Christ before they are saved.  

I will try to give you the short version of human history knowing that it will open up new questions.

The human race was created to resolve the conflict between God and Satan.  Satan was condemned to the Lake of Fire.  Satan appealed that judgement by asking God how he could condemn one of his creatures? We were created lower (dumber) than Angels with one issue to resolve the conflict between God and Satan.  We were created with free will to choose for God or against God.  Through out human history when we choose for God we receive salvation.  If we choose against God we are condemned.

The history of the human race is divided into a number of dispensation.  In each dispensation Jesus Christ as the second person of the Trinity is the only one that has been seen by anyone in the human race.  He has presented himself to the human race in a different way.  In the garden of Eden he came to Adam and Eve at the end of the day and taught them doctrine.  In other dispensations He is described in different ways (Lord of Host, Shakinah Glory, Pillar of Fire, Burning Bush, Jesus Christ).  In the Age of Israel (for simplicity is the period up to the Cross)He was the known as the Shakinah Glory. The Age of Israel looked forward to the Cross.  It was all about animal sacrifice and ritual. These rituals were designed to teach people points of doctrine. This ritual was necessary because the Bible was not finished and most of the people could not read.  After the Cross the dispensation is called the Church Age.  This is the age of the written word.  The bible was finished in 70AD when the last Apostle died.  Since then many of the Jews and others are still looking for the Messiah to come but He has already been here and they refuse to accept that fact.  

So can someone EDUCATED explain the "apparent" contradiction insimple terms without a lot of doublespeak?

And by Jew, does this mean the Jewish race derived from the Hebrew tribe exclusively? Or the followers of Judaism? Was Sammy Davis a Jew?

Jew can be used for both race and follower.  

Can someone please enlighten me? I've never seen a serious answer to this basic question.

I would suggest a couple of web sites to you for detailed information.  

http://www.gbible.org

http://www.berachah.org

The Berachah site has detailed books and tapes that you can order Free of charge that will answer all of your questions in great detail.

I hope this helps.  You asked some good question that need a lot of detail to understand.

Yes they must accept, and upon acceptance they must OBEY his fathers laws.  Otherwise, you are just a person who believes ON Christ [red](Rom 2:13 & Matt 7:21)[/red].
What must you do to obey?
[red]Psalms 111:10, Psalms 119:172 and finally Revelations 22:14[/red]
The phrase "Getting into heaven" is a common misnomer.  To obey God is to be an heir to salvation, ie: to be saved, future tense.  NO ONE is currently "saved".  You are only "saved" from the second death by Gods grace, and he grants grace to those who believe and obey.  NO ONE is getting into "heaven" (really, its called the eternal kingdom) if they cannot submit and obey Gods laws.



Correct.  The lawyers and religious Jew's (the members of the tribe of Judah) during Christs time were the very ones who conspired to have him murdered by the Romans.



The ISRAELITES, or nation or Israel are Gods chosen people, not just members of the tribe of Judah.  
NO ONE has a confirmed reservation in "heaven".  Where is that written?




Jew is short for JUDAH.  Judah is only one of the tribes of Israel.
Whoever and however modern Jews decide to absorb someone into their religion (which denies Christ), would require some study into the Jewish religion(which denies Christ...did I mention that already?).

The different races come from the sons of Noah.  The human race up to Noah was all one race.  The descendants of Noah's sons became the different races.  Many things changed with the flood.  Prior to the flood we did not have any genetic restrictions.  Brother and sister could marry etc.  The human race was started with Adam and Eve.  Their children intermarried to create the population of the earth prior to the flood to answer the second question "where did all these people come from".  


To answer some of the other questions I have seen.  

Gods chosen people.  The Jews were chosen by God to be the lineage of Jesus Christ. They are still Gods chosen.  God made promises/covenants to them.  These covenants have not been completely fulfilled.  Some will not be fulfilled until the Second coming of Jesus Christ.  The dispensation/Age of Israel was interrupted by the first advent of Jesus Christ.  The Age of the Church was inserted into the Age of Israel.  The Age of Israel had seven more years to run but that clock was interrupted.  This explains why the Rapture must occur before the 7 years of Tribulation then the Millennium.

I have probably given everyone more detail than they ever wanted so I will stop for now.  If anyone has any other question I would be happy to help.