Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 9/6/2010 12:46:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2010 12:48:31 PM EDT by S_A_C]
According to the US Supreme Cort, a simple tip is not enough probable cause for a search, or even a terry stop, nor is it in, and of it's self any evidence of a crime. It was a unanimous decision, and ironically enough Justice ginsberg wrote the opinion, with Justice Kennedy writing in concurrence. The case was Florida V. J.L.:

FLORIDA v. J. L.

certiorari to the supreme court of florida

No. 98-1993. Argued February 29, 2000––Decided March 28, 2000

After an anonymous caller reported to the Miami-Dade Police that a young black male standing at a particular bus stop and wearing a plaid shirt was carrying a gun, officers went to the bus stop and saw three black males, one of whom, respondent J. L., was wearing a plaid shirt. Apart from the tip, the officers had no reason to suspect any of the three of illegal conduct. The officers did not see a firearm or observe any unusual movements. One of the officers frisked J. L. and seized a gun from his pocket. J. L., who was then almost 16, was charged under state law with carrying a concealed firearm without a license and possessing a firearm while under the age of 18. The trial court granted his motion to suppress the gun as the fruit of an unlawful search. The intermediate appellate court reversed, but the Supreme Court of Florida quashed that decision and held the search invalid under the Fourth Amendment.

Held : An anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not, without more, sufficient to justify a police officer's stop and frisk of that person. An officer, for the protection of himself and others, may conduct a carefully limited search for weapons in the outer clothing of persons engaged in unusual conduct where, inter alia, the officer reasonably concludes in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons in question may be armed and presently dangerous. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U. S. 1, 30 . Here, the officers' suspicion that J. L. was carrying a weapon arose not from their own observations but solely from a call made from an unknown location by an unknown caller. The tip lacked sufficient indicia of reliability to provide reasonable suspicion to make a Terry stop: It provided no predictive information and therefore left the police without means to test the informant's knowledge or credibility. See Alabama v. White , 496 U. S. 325, 327 . The contentions of Florida and the United States as amicus that the tip was reliable because it accurately described J. L.'s visible attributes misapprehend the reliability needed for a tip to justify a Terry stop. The reasonable suspicion here at issue requires that a tip be reliable in its assertion of illegality, not just in its tendency to identify a determinate person. This Court also declines to adopt the argument that the standard Terry analysis should be modified to license a "firearm exception," under which a tip alleging an illegal gun would justify a stop and frisk even if the accusation would fail standard pre-search reliability testing. The facts of this case do not require the Court to speculate about the circumstances under which the danger alleged in an anonymous tip might be so great–– e.g., a report of a person carrying a bomb––as to justify a search even without a showing of reliability.

727 So. 2d 204, affirmed.

Ginsburg, J., delivered the opinion for a unanimous Court. Kennedy, J., filed a concurring opinion, in which Rehnquist, C. J., joined.



FLORIDA, PETITIONER v. J. L.

on writ of certiorari to the supreme court of florida

[March 28, 2000]

Justice Ginsburg delivered the opinion of the Court.

The question presented in this case is whether an anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is, without more, sufficient to justify a police officer's stop and frisk of that person. We hold that it is not.

I

On October 13, 1995, an anonymous caller reported to the Miami-Dade Police that a young black male standing at a particular bus stop and wearing a plaid shirt was carrying a gun. App. to Pet. for Cert. A-40-A-41. So far as the record reveals, there is no audio recording of the tip, and nothing is known about the informant. Sometime after the police received the tip––the record does not say how long––two officers were instructed to respond. They arrived at the bus stop about six minutes later and saw three black males "just hanging out [there]." Id ., at A-42. One of the three, respondent J. L., was wearing a plaid shirt. Id ., at A-41. Apart from the tip, the officers had no reason to suspect any of the three of illegal conduct. The officers did not see a firearm, and J. L. made no threatening or otherwise unusual movements. Id ., at A-42-A-44. One of the officers approached J. L., told him to put his hands up on the bus stop, frisked him, and seized a gun from J. L.'s pocket. The second officer frisked the other two individuals, against whom no allegations had been made, and found nothing.

J. L., who was at the time of the frisk "10 days shy of his 16th birth[day]," Tr. of Oral Arg. 6, was charged under state law with carrying a concealed firearm without a license and possessing a firearm while under the age of 18. He moved to suppress the gun as the fruit of an unlawful search, and the trial court granted his motion. The intermediate appellate court reversed, but the Supreme Court of Florida quashed that decision and held the search invalid under the Fourth Amendment. 727 So. 2d 204 (1998).

Anonymous tips, the Florida Supreme Court stated, are generally less reliable than tips from known informants and can form the basis for reasonable suspicion only if accompanied by specific indicia of reliability, for example, the correct forecast of a subject's " `not easily predicted' " movements. Id ., at 207 (quoting Alabama v. White , 496 U. S. 325, 332 (1990)). The tip leading to the frisk of J. L., the court observed, provided no such predictions, nor did it contain any other qualifying indicia of reliability. 727 So. 2d, at 207-208. Two justices dissented. The safety of the police and the public, they maintained, justifies a "firearm exception" to the general rule barring investigatory stops and frisks on the basis of bare-boned anonymous tips. Id ., at 214-215.

Seeking review in this Court, the State of Florida noted that the decision of the State's Supreme Court conflicts with decisions of other courts declaring similar searches compatible with the Fourth Amendment. See, e.g., United States v. DeBerry , 76 F. 3d 884, 886-887 (CA7 1996); United States v. Clipper , 973 F. 2d 944, 951 (CADC 1992). We granted certiorari, 528 U. S. –– (1999), and now affirm the judgment of the Florida Supreme Court.

II

Our "stop and frisk" decisions begin with Terry v. Ohio , 392 U. S. 1 (1968). This Court held in Terry

"[W]here a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, where in the course of investigating this behavior he identifies himself as a policeman and makes reasonable inquiries, and where nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel his reasonable fear for his own or others' safety, he is entitled for the protection of himself and others in the area to conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of such persons in an attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him." Id ., at 30.

In the instant case, the officers' suspicion that J. L. was carrying a weapon arose not from any observations of their own but solely from a call made from an unknown location by an unknown caller. Unlike a tip from a known informant whose reputation can be assessed and who can be held responsible if her allegations turn out to be fabricated, see Adams v. Williams , 407 U. S. 143, 146-147 (1972), "an anonymous tip alone seldom demonstrates the informant's basis of knowledge or veracity," Alabama v. White , 496 U. S., at 329 . As we have recognized, however, there are situations in which an anonymous tip, suitably corroborated, exhibits "sufficient indicia of reliability to provide reasonable suspicion to make the investiga-
tory stop." Id ., at 327. The question we here confront
is whether the tip pointing to J. L. had those indicia of reliability.

In White , the police received an anonymous tip asserting that a woman was carrying cocaine and predicting that she would leave an apartment building at a specified time, get into a car matching a particular description, and drive to a named motel. Ibid . Standing alone, the tip would not have justified a Terry stop. Id ., at 329. Only after police observation showed that the informant had accurately predicted the woman's movements, we explained, did it become reasonable to think the tipster had inside knowledge about the suspect and therefore to credit his assertion about the cocaine. Id ., at 332. Although the Court held that the suspicion in White became reasonable after police surveillance, we regarded the case as borderline. Knowledge about a person's future movements indicates some familiarity with that person's affairs, but having such knowledge does not necessarily imply that the informant knows, in particular, whether that person is carrying hidden contraband. We accordingly classified White as a "close case." Ibid .

The tip in the instant case lacked the moderate indicia of reliability present in White and essential to the Court's decision in that case. The anonymous call concerning J. L. provided no predictive information and therefore left the police without means to test the informant's knowledge or credibility. That the allegation about the gun turned out to be correct does not suggest that the officers, prior to the frisks, had a reasonable basis for suspecting J. L. of engaging in unlawful conduct: The reasonableness of official suspicion must be measured by what the officers knew before they conducted their search. All the police had to go on in this case was the bare report of an unknown, unaccountable informant who neither explained how he knew about the gun nor supplied any basis for believing he had inside information about J. L. If White was a close case on the reliability of anonymous tips, this one surely falls on the other side of the line.

Florida contends that the tip was reliable because its description of the suspect's visible attributes proved accurate: There really was a young black male wearing a plaid shirt at the bus stop. Brief for Petitioner 20-21. The United States as amicus curiae makes a similar argument, proposing that a stop and frisk should be permitted "when (1) an anonymous tip provides a description of a particular person at a particular location illegally carrying a concealed firearm, (2) police promptly verify the pertinent details of the tip except the existence of the firearm, and (3) there are no factors that cast doubt on the reliability of the tip ... ." Brief for United States 16. These contentions misapprehend the reliability needed for a tip to justify a Terry stop.

An accurate description of a subject's readily observable location and appearance is of course reliable in this limited sense: It will help the police correctly identify the person whom the tipster means to accuse. Such a tip, however, does not show that the tipster has knowledge of concealed criminal activity. The reasonable suspicion here at issue requires that a tip be reliable in its assertion of illegality, not just in its tendency to identify a determinate person. Cf. 4 W. LaFave, Search and Seizure §9.4(h), p. 213 (3d ed. 1996) (distinguishing reliability as to identification, which is often important in other criminal law contexts, from reliability as to the likelihood of criminal activity, which is central in anonymous-tip cases).

A second major argument advanced by Florida and the United States as amicus is, in essence, that the standard Terry analysis should be modified to license a "firearm exception." Under such an exception, a tip alleging an illegal gun would justify a stop and frisk even if the accusation would fail standard pre-search reliability testing. We decline to adopt this position.

Firearms are dangerous, and extraordinary dangers sometimes justify unusual precautions. Our decisions recognize the serious threat that armed criminals pose to public safety; Terry 's rule, which permits protective police searches on the basis of reasonable suspicion rather than demanding that officers meet the higher standard of probable cause, responds to this very concern. See 392 U. S., at 30 . But an automatic firearm exception to our established reliability analysis would rove too far. Such an exception would enable any person seeking to harass another to set in motion an intrusive, embarrassing police search of the targeted person simply by placing an anonymous call falsely reporting the target's unlawful carriage of a gun. Nor could one securely confine such an exception to allegations involving firearms. Several Courts of Appeals have held it per se foreseeable for people carrying significant amounts of illegal drugs to be carrying guns as well. See, e.g., United States v. Sakyi , 160 F. 3d 164, 169 (CA4 1998); United States v. Dean , 59 F. 3d 1479, 1490, n. 20 (CA5 1995); United States v. Odom , 13 F. 3d 949, 959 (CA6 1994); United States v. Martinez , 958 F. 2d 217, 219 (CA8 1992). If police officers may properly conduct Terry frisks on the basis of bare-boned tips about guns, it would be reasonable to maintain under the above-cited decisions that the police should similarly have discretion to frisk based on bare-boned tips about narcotics. As we clarified when we made indicia of reliability critical in Adams and White , the Fourth Amendment is not so easily satisfied. Cf. Richards v. Wisconsin , 520 U. S. 385, 393-394 (1997) (rejecting a per se exception to the "knock and announce" rule for narcotics cases partly because "the reasons for creating an exception in one category [of Fourth Amendment cases] can, relatively easily, be applied to others," thus allowing the exception to swallow the rule).* 1

The facts of this case do not require us to speculate about the circumstances under which the danger alleged in an anonymous tip might be so great as to justify a search even without a showing of reliability. We do not say, for example, that a report of a person carrying a bomb need bear the indicia of reliability we demand for a report of a person carrying a firearm before the police can constitutionally conduct a frisk. Nor do we hold that public safety officials in quarters where the reasonable expectation of Fourth Amendment privacy is diminished, such as airports, see Florida v. Rodriguez , 469 U. S. 1 (1984) ( per curiam ), and schools, see New Jersey v. T.L.O. , 469 U. S. 325 (1985), cannot conduct protective searches on the basis of information insufficient to justify searches elsewhere.

Finally, the requirement that an anonymous tip bear standard indicia of reliability in order to justify a stop in no way diminishes a police officer's prerogative, in accord with Terry , to conduct a protective search of a person who has already been legitimately stopped. We speak in today's decision only of cases in which the officer's authority to make the initial stop is at issue. In that context, we hold that an anonymous tip lacking indicia of reliability of the kind contemplated in Adams and White does not justify a stop and frisk whenever and however it alleges the illegal possession of a firearm.

The judgment of the Florida Supreme Court is affirmed.

It is so ordered .



FLORIDA, PETITIONER v. J. L.

on writ of certiorari to the supreme court of florida

[March 28, 2000]

Justice Kennedy , with whom The Chief Justice joins, concurring.

On the record created at the suppression hearing, the Court's decision is correct. The Court says all that is necessary to resolve this case, and I join the opinion in all respects. It might be noted, however, that there are many indicia of reliability respecting anonymous tips that we have yet to explore in our cases.

When a police officer testifies that a suspect aroused the officer's suspicion, and so justifies a stop and frisk, the courts can weigh the officer's credibility and admit evidence seized pursuant to the frisk even if no one, aside from the officer and defendant themselves, was present or observed the seizure. An anonymous telephone tip without more is different, however; for even if the officer's testimony about receipt of the tip is found credible, there is a second layer of inquiry respecting the reliability of the informant that cannot be pursued. If the telephone call is truly anonymous, the informant has not placed his credibility at risk and can lie with impunity. The reviewing court cannot judge the credibility of the informant and the risk of fabrication becomes unacceptable.

On this record, then, the Court is correct in holding that the telephone tip did not justify the arresting officer's immediate stop and frisk of respondent. There was testimony that an anonymous tip came in by a telephone call and nothing more. The record does not show whether some notation or other documentation of the call was made either by a voice recording or tracing the call to a telephone number. The prosecution recounted just the tip itself and the later verification of the presence of the three young men in the circumstances the Court describes.

It seems appropriate to observe that a tip might be anonymous in some sense yet have certain other features, either supporting reliability or narrowing the likely class of informants, so that the tip does provide the lawful basis for some police action. One such feature, as the Court recognizes, is that the tip predicts future conduct of the alleged criminal. There may be others. For example, if an unnamed caller with a voice which sounds the same each time tells police on two successive nights about criminal activity which in fact occurs each night, a similar call on the third night ought not be treated automatically like the tip in the case now before us. In the instance supposed, there would be a plausible argument that experience cures some of the uncertainty surrounding the anonymity, justifying a proportionate police response. In today's case, however, the State provides us with no data about the reliability of anonymous tips. Nor do we know whether the dispatcher or arresting officer had any objective reason to believe that this tip had some particular indicia of reliability.

If an informant places his anonymity at risk, a court can consider this factor in weighing the reliability of the tip. An instance where a tip might be considered anonymous but nevertheless sufficiently reliable to justify a proportionate police response may be when an unnamed person driving a car the police officer later describes stops for a moment and, face to face, informs the police that criminal activity is occurring. This too seems to be different from the tip in the present case. See United States v. Sierra-Hernandez , 581 F. 2d 760 (CA9 1978).

Instant caller identification is widely available to police, and, if anonymous tips are proving unreliable and distracting to police, squad cars can be sent within seconds to the location of the telephone used by the informant. Voice recording of telephone tips might, in appropriate cases, be used by police to locate the caller. It is unlawful to make false reports to the police, e.g. , Fla. Stat. Ann. §365.171(16) (Supp. 2000); Fla. Stat. Ann. §817.49 (1994), and the ability of the police to trace the identity of anonymous telephone informants may be a factor which lends reliability to what, years earlier, might have been considered unreliable anonymous tips.

These matters, of course, must await discussion in other cases, where the issues are presented by the record.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 1:04:49 PM EDT
Good shoot ruling
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 1:28:23 PM EDT
So tell me how that's gonna help you when they prone you out, put roughly 8 knees in your back and go through you and your vehicle with a fine toothed comb?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 1:34:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hard_Corps:
So tell me how that's gonna help you when they prone you out, put roughly 8 knees in your back and go through you and your vehicle with a fine toothed comb?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


You say, no the supreme court said you cant do that officer.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 1:36:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AKsala:
Originally Posted By Hard_Corps:
So tell me how that's gonna help you when they prone you out, put roughly 8 knees in your back and go through you and your vehicle with a fine toothed comb?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


You say, no the supreme court said you cant do that officer.


If only it worked this way.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 1:36:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AKsala:
Originally Posted By Hard_Corps:
So tell me how that's gonna help you when they prone you out, put roughly 8 knees in your back and go through you and your vehicle with a fine toothed comb?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


You say, no the supreme court said you cant do that officer.


Good luck with that.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 1:37:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AKsala:
Originally Posted By Hard_Corps:
So tell me how that's gonna help you when they prone you out, put roughly 8 knees in your back and go through you and your vehicle with a fine toothed comb?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


You say, no the supreme court said you cant do that officer.


and they will listen? yeah, i'm sure they will give you a hand up off the ground and say sorry. then let you go on your way.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 1:37:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AKsala:
Originally Posted By Hard_Corps:
So tell me how that's gonna help you when they prone you out, put roughly 8 knees in your back and go through you and your vehicle with a fine toothed comb?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


You say, no the supreme court said you cant do that officer.


"Shut your mouth!! Shut your fucking mouth!! Stop resisting!!! Give me your hands!! Stop resisting!!!"

Link Posted: 9/6/2010 1:49:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AKsala:
"no the supreme court said you cant do that officer."

You gonna get tazed.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 1:50:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Evil_ATF:
Originally Posted By AKsala:
"no the supreme court said you cant do that officer."

You gonna get tazed.

Bro


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 1:57:59 PM EDT
meh, now they'll just say, "I smelled marijuana, your honor."
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 2:01:17 PM EDT
I have a leaky disc in my back, which I deal with pretty well. However, getting a knee hard in the back would probably cause damage for which I would have a hard time recovering. I cringe every time I see the knee in the back thing.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 2:10:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By S_A_C:
According to the US Supreme Cort, a simple tip is not enough probable cause for a search, or even a terry stop, nor is it in, and of it's self any evidence of a crime. It was a unanimous decision, and ironically enough Justice ginsberg wrote the opinion, with Justice Kennedy writing in concurrence. The case was Florida V. J.L.:


Please explain the irony. I don't see it.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 2:13:47 PM EDT
This is were the lawyer comes in after your rights are violated and you sue everyone...........telling the police their jobs and what your rights are is simply gonna get the shit beat out of you and some additional charges added from thin air......the only thing you should say is your name and I want a lawyer....
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 2:16:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:
meh, now they'll just say, "I smelled marijuana, your honor."
Or do the Rafael Perez crooked LAPD cop thing and book a baggie of dope into evidence 3 days later and claim it was taken from your person during arrest.

Link Posted: 9/6/2010 2:17:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
This is were the lawyer comes in after your rights are violated and you sue everyone...........telling the police their jobs and what your rights are is simply gonna get the shit beat out of you and some additional charges added from thin air......the only thing you should say is your name and I want a lawyer....


Link Posted: 9/6/2010 2:24:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hard_Corps:
So tell me how that's gonna help you when they prone you out, put roughly 8 knees in your back and go through you and your vehicle with a fine toothed comb?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

"You might beat the charge but you won't beat the ride"
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 2:26:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
This is were the lawyer comes in after your rights are violated and you sue everyone...........telling the police their jobs and what your rights are is simply gonna get the shit beat out of you and some additional charges added from thin air......the only thing you should say is your name and I want a lawyer....


Bleak and sound advice.

Link Posted: 9/6/2010 2:30:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hard_Corps:
Originally Posted By Evil_ATF:
Originally Posted By AKsala:
"no the supreme court said you cant do that officer."

You gonna get tazed.

Bro


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Don't taze me bro!
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 2:42:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BuckHammer:
Originally Posted By S_A_C:
According to the US Supreme Cort, a simple tip is not enough probable cause for a search, or even a terry stop, nor is it in, and of it's self any evidence of a crime. It was a unanimous decision, and ironically enough Justice ginsberg wrote the opinion, with Justice Kennedy writing in concurrence. The case was Florida V. J.L.:


Please explain the irony. I don't see it.

Because if it involved a legal CCW she probably wouldn't have ruled that way. But since it involved a criminal, we (theoretically) get the benefit of the ruling.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 3:03:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VelveteenMole:

Originally Posted By BuckHammer:
Originally Posted By S_A_C:
According to the US Supreme Cort, a simple tip is not enough probable cause for a search, or even a terry stop, nor is it in, and of it's self any evidence of a crime. It was a unanimous decision, and ironically enough Justice ginsberg wrote the opinion, with Justice Kennedy writing in concurrence. The case was Florida V. J.L.:


Please explain the irony. I don't see it.

Because if it involved a legal CCW she probably wouldn't have ruled that way. But since it involved a criminal, we (theoretically) get the benefit of the ruling.


This case is more based on contraband in general, not necessarily only firearms. Wouldn't you say that Ginsberg usually rules in favor of civil rights when searches and seizures are involved?
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 5:05:50 PM EDT
Can you imagine how much the lawyer fees were to take it that high?
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 5:06:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AKsala:
Originally Posted By Hard_Corps:
So tell me how that's gonna help you when they prone you out, put roughly 8 knees in your back and go through you and your vehicle with a fine toothed comb?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


You say, no the supreme court said you cant do that officer.


Link Posted: 9/6/2010 5:07:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fistpoint:
Can you imagine how much the lawyer fees were to take it that high?

By design I reckon.
Link Posted: 9/6/2010 5:46:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Evil_ATF:
Originally Posted By AKsala:
"no the supreme court said you cant do that officer."

You gonna get tazed.


More like shot in the Costco parking lot. Other witnesses don't count anyways.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:40:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BuckHammer:
Originally Posted By S_A_C:
According to the US Supreme Cort, a simple tip is not enough probable cause for a search, or even a terry stop, nor is it in, and of it's self any evidence of a crime. It was a unanimous decision, and ironically enough Justice ginsberg wrote the opinion, with Justice Kennedy writing in concurrence. The case was Florida V. J.L.:


Please explain the irony. I don't see it.


The irony is that ginsberg didn't go commie, and side with all powerful government.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:41:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VelveteenMole:

Originally Posted By BuckHammer:
Originally Posted By S_A_C:
According to the US Supreme Cort, a simple tip is not enough probable cause for a search, or even a terry stop, nor is it in, and of it's self any evidence of a crime. It was a unanimous decision, and ironically enough Justice ginsberg wrote the opinion, with Justice Kennedy writing in concurrence. The case was Florida V. J.L.:


Please explain the irony. I don't see it.

Because if it involved a legal CCW she probably wouldn't have ruled that way. But since it involved a criminal, we (theoretically) get the benefit of the ruling.


This.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:48:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 10:27:10 AM EDT by Admiral_Crunch]

Originally Posted By Hard_Corps:
So tell me how that's gonna help you when they prone you out, put roughly 8 knees in your back and go through you and your vehicle with a fine toothed comb?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

It'll help afterward when your lawyer converts their jobs into a settlement check.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:49:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NoloContendere:
Originally Posted By AKsala:
Originally Posted By Hard_Corps:
So tell me how that's gonna help you when they prone you out, put roughly 8 knees in your back and go through you and your vehicle with a fine toothed comb?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


You say, no the supreme court said you cant do that officer.


If only it worked this way.




If cops only knew the law. They call themselves LEOs but don't know the laws.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:56:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By S_A_C:
According to the US Supreme Cort, a simple tip is not enough probable cause for a search, or even a terry stop, nor is it in, and of it's self any evidence of a crime. It was a unanimous decision, and ironically enough Justice ginsberg wrote the opinion, with Justice Kennedy writing in concurrence. The case was Florida V. J.L.:

FLORIDA v. J. L.

certiorari to the supreme court of florida

No. 98-1993. Argued February 29, 2000––Decided March 28, 2000

After an anonymous caller reported to the Miami-Dade Police that a young black male standing at a particular bus stop and wearing a plaid shirt was carrying a gun, officers went to the bus stop and saw three black males, one of whom, respondent J. L., was wearing a plaid shirt. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

Held : An anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not, Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. See Alabama v. White , 496 U. S. 325, 327 . Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

727 So. 2d 204, affirmed.

Ginsburg, J., delivered the opinion for a unanimous Court. Kennedy, J., filed a concurring opinion, in which Rehnquist, C. J., joined.



FLORIDA, PETITIONER v. J. L.

on writ of certiorari to the supreme court of florida

[March 28, 2000]

Justice Ginsburg delivered the opinion of the Court.

The question presented in this case is whether an anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is, without more, sufficient to justify a police officer's stop and frisk of that person. We hold that it is not.

I

On October 13, 1995, an anonymous caller reported to the Miami-Dade Police that a young black male standing at a particular bus stop and wearing a plaid shirt was carrying a gun. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

J. L., who was at the time of the frisk "10 days shy of his 16th birth[day]," Tr. of Oral Arg. 6, was Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. (1998).

Anonymous tips, the Florida Supreme Court stated, are generally less reliable than tips from known informants and can form the basis for reasonable suspicion only if Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum..

Seeking review in this Court, Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

In the instant case, the officers' suspicion that J. L. was carrying a weapon Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum..

In White , Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. Ibid .

The tip in the instant case lacked the moderate indicia of reliability present in White and essential to the Court's decision in that case. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

Florida contends that Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

An accurate description of a subject's readily observable Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

A second major argument advanced by Florida and Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

Firearms are dangerous, Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.1

Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiu Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

The judgment of the Florida Supreme Court is affirmed.

It is so ordered .



FLORIDA, PETITIONER v. J. L.

on writ of certiorari to the supreme court of florida

[March 28, 2000]

Justice Kennedy , with whom The Chief Justice joins, concurring.

On the record created at the suppression hearing, the Court's decision is correct. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

When a police officer testifies that a suspect aroused the officer's suspicion, and so justifies a stop and frisk, Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.. The reviewing court cannot judge the credibility of the informant and the risk of fabrication becomes unacceptable.

On this record, then, the Court is correct in holding that the telephone tip did not justify the arresting officer's immediate stop and frisk of respondent. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

It seems appropriate to observe that a tip might be anonymous in some sense yet have certain other features, Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.. Nor do we know whether the dispatcher or arresting officer had any objective reason to believe that this tip had some particular indicia of reliability.

If an informant places his anonymity at risk, Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum. See United States v. Sierra-Hernandez , 581 F. 2d 760 (CA9 1978).

Instant caller identification is widely available to police, and, Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua. Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum.

These matters, of course, must await discussion in other cases, where the issues are presented by the record.


Couldn't have said it better myself.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:58:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
telling the police their jobs and what your rights are is simply gonna get the shit beat out of you and some additional charges added from thin air...


And that is a disgraceful, inexcusable problem.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:58:52 AM EDT
Could this ruling be interpreted to include Japanese Maples?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 10:01:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BuckHammer:
Originally Posted By VelveteenMole:

Originally Posted By BuckHammer:
Originally Posted By S_A_C:
According to the US Supreme Cort, a simple tip is not enough probable cause for a search, or even a terry stop, nor is it in, and of it's self any evidence of a crime. It was a unanimous decision, and ironically enough Justice ginsberg wrote the opinion, with Justice Kennedy writing in concurrence. The case was Florida V. J.L.:


Please explain the irony. I don't see it.

Because if it involved a legal CCW she probably wouldn't have ruled that way. But since it involved a criminal, we (theoretically) get the benefit of the ruling.


This case is more based on contraband in general, not necessarily only firearms. Wouldn't you say that Ginsberg usually rules in favor of civil rights when searches and seizures are involved?

Yes. But an otherwise law abiding citizen simply exercising what should be a respected/facilitated right would be unlikely to get her sympathy as a non-oppressed entity. I think she'd read his act as a pro-gun statement and that would repulse her. She decides emotionally, then develops a (tenuous) legal framework to support her preference. They all do that at times I think, to be fair. It just happens that she and three others consider gutting the 2nd Amendment a pet issue as much as we consider defending the 2nd Amendment a pet issue.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 10:02:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dracster:
Could this ruling be interpreted to include Japanese Maples?

God, I hope so!
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 10:07:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VelveteenMole:

Originally Posted By Dracster:
Could this ruling be interpreted to include Japanese Maples?

God, I hope so!


What about Japanese Maples?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 10:09:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By S_A_C:
Originally Posted By VelveteenMole:

Originally Posted By Dracster:
Could this ruling be interpreted to include Japanese Maples?

God, I hope so!


What about Japanese Maples?

Those, too.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 10:18:19 AM EDT
Day late and a dollar short man, thats 10 years old.

Now in days, its been altered to say that if a tip is SPECIFIC ENOUGH, and provided enough detail to male an officer confident that the tipsters information is geniune is good it is enough to stop a vehicle and investigate further. Someone saying hes got a gun is nothing, but if they were for instance to say that "so and so has a silver revolver in his front right pocket, he just got into this vehicle with such and such license plate, hes leaving here and going to this location" that is enough information for an officer to believe that the information is good, and he can stop that vehicle to investigate. no, he can't pull them out of the car immediatly, but he can preform a suspicious vehicle stop and begin a further investigation.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 10:19:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rogue-Sasquatch:
Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
telling the police their jobs and what your rights are is simply gonna get the shit beat out of you and some additional charges added from thin air...


And that is a disgraceful, inexcusable problem.


+1
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 10:43:35 AM EDT
You guys have your tinfoil on tightly today I see.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 10:45:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tossinsparks:
Day late and a dollar short man, thats 10 years old.

Now in days, its been altered to say that if a tip is SPECIFIC ENOUGH, and provided enough detail to male an officer confident that the tipsters information is geniune is good it is enough to stop a vehicle and investigate further. Someone saying hes got a gun is nothing, but if they were for instance to say that "so and so has a silver revolver in his front right pocket, he just got into this vehicle with such and such license plate, hes leaving here and going to this location" that is enough information for an officer to believe that the information is good, and he can stop that vehicle to investigate. no, he can't pull them out of the car immediatly, but he can preform a suspicious vehicle stop and begin a further investigation.


And what if that silver revolver turns out to be a Glock 19, lawfully licensed? Technically, the search would be illegal, because the reasonable, articulable suspicion is based on a lie.

But it would not end there for the unlucky recipient of said search, would it?
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 10:45:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
You guys have your tinfoil on tightly today I see.


Of course. Lots of isolated incidents waiting to happen.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 11:18:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By djsmiles:
Originally Posted By AKsala:
Originally Posted By Hard_Corps:
So tell me how that's gonna help you when they prone you out, put roughly 8 knees in your back and go through you and your vehicle with a fine toothed comb?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


You say, no the supreme court said you cant do that officer.


and they will listen? yeah, i'm sure they will give you a hand up off the ground and say sorry. then let you go on your way.


The point is that because of the ruling, PDs will have to be more careful about their treatment of people who simply have guns. The ruling might also be extended to simple tips on other crimes. If you are still mistreated, though, now you have legal recourse as there is a legal precedent. If you get proned out over a "man with a gun" tip, you can sue the pants off the officers involved.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 12:26:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tossinsparks:
Day late and a dollar short man, thats 10 years old.

Now in days, its been altered to say that if a tip is SPECIFIC ENOUGH, and provided enough detail to male an officer confident that the tipsters information is geniune is good it is enough to stop a vehicle and investigate further. Someone saying hes got a gun is nothing, but if they were for instance to say that "so and so has a silver revolver in his front right pocket, he just got into this vehicle with such and such license plate, hes leaving here and going to this location" that is enough information for an officer to believe that the information is good, and he can stop that vehicle to investigate. no, he can't pull them out of the car immediatly, but he can preform a suspicious vehicle stop and begin a further investigation.


Dude, I honestly tried to read that shit but there is just way too much WTF in there. You might have had something worthwhile to say but no one will ever know because you couldn't be bothered to hammer out a comprehensible word, let alone a coherent sentence.
Top Top