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Posted: 9/5/2010 4:39:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/7/2010 10:11:09 AM EDT by KA3B]
Edit to delete article - don't have time to get the links, my apologies to the site.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:41:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 4:42:35 PM EDT by Wave]
so....those below E-5 are no longer professional enough?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:42:47 PM EDT
I have heard a lot of less-than-awesome stories of sailors doing stupid things with guns at NAS Jax over the years.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:47:07 PM EDT
Regular Navy and good gun skills don't mix....don't they have the marines for that?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:49:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:51:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 4:52:02 PM EDT by 41magluva]
For cryin out loud, my 10 year old can recite the 4 basic rules of firearm safety, but our sailors are jacking rounds all over the place?



edit: I should get off my high horse, our domestic leos are just as prone to this kind of recklessness.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:54:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 41magluva:
For cryin out loud, my 10 year old can recite the 4 basic rules of firearm safety, but our sailors are jacking rounds all over the place?



edit: I should get off my high horse, our domestic leos are just as prone to this kind of recklessness.


I would lay odds that those sailors tried to ride the bolt closed on the M240B. Open bolt is an SOB for being unforgiving about that.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:56:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jwidman:
Regular Navy and good gun skills don't mix....don't they have the marines for that?


They have Gunner's Mates

...who apparently are having a tough time training their shipmates.

Glad I'm not there anymore. That's going to SUCK for E-5s and above!

Once again proves that everything goes FUBAR after I leave
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:56:52 PM EDT
At the start of WWII, when my dad was at Treasure Island in preparation of being shipped overseas, they had a couple of episodes of Navy sentries shooting drunk sailors returning to base after a long night in San Francisco.

The solution: They issued the sentries rifles but took their ammo away.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:57:33 PM EDT
LOL, of all the ND's I recall in the Army, 75% of the time it was a e-5 and above because they thought they were higher trained than joe and could deal with a loaded weapon safer. THEN one of them ND'd his M-9 into a medics ass through a wall in Iraq.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:00:32 PM EDT
I've never been in the Navy... but in Army-speak, here's what this letter means:

"Okay, you mid-level leaders. Obviously, you can't get your shit together and keep Joe from having negligent discharges. At some point, your failure to train and supervise is gonna get one of us seniors fired. So, to give you some time to think about how to unfuck yourselves... YOU will be pulling the duty for your E-5 and below guys."
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:02:38 PM EDT
From all the ODU alerts I've read, Norfolk is used to gunfire up close...so what's a loose round or two from across a river?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:06:16 PM EDT
The one in PTown is no big deal. The shot probably wasn't even noticed. We pulled bullets out of a bunch of the roofs we replaced at the naval shipyard
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:06:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ken914:
I've never been in the Navy... but in Army-speak, here's what this letter means:

"Okay, you mid-level leaders. Obviously, you can't get your shit together and keep Joe from having negligent discharges. At some point, your failure to train and supervise is gonna get one of us seniors fired. So, to give you some time to think about how to unfuck yourselves... YOU will be pulling the duty for your E-5 and below guys."

you forgot "feel free to thank them when i leave"
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:06:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ken914:
I've never been in the Navy... but in Army-speak, here's what this letter means:

"Okay, you mid-level leaders. Obviously, you can't get your shit together and keep Joe from having negligent discharges. At some point, your failure to train and supervise is gonna get one of us seniors fired. So, to give you some time to think about how to unfuck yourselves... YOU will be pulling the duty for your E-5 and below guys."


Good words right there!
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:07:04 PM EDT
The location - A small FOB in Iraq

The situation - An NCO giving some professional instruction to a junior Marine on the AT-4

The result? Negligent discharge of an AT-4 INSIDE of a guard post with bulletproof glass.

Ran outside my little hooch thinking ti was a vbied but saw the guy fall out of the tower.

How they survived the back blast I have no idea
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:08:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dustrod:
The location - A small FOB in Iraq

The situation - An NCO giving some professional instruction to a junior Marine on the AT-4

The result? Negligent discharge of an AT-4 INSIDE of a guard post with bulletproof glass.

Ran outside my little hooch thinking ti was a vbied but saw the guy fall out of the tower.

How they survived the back blast I have no idea

04-05? Think I heard about this...
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:08:51 PM EDT
Stupidity in action.

One jerkoff with a M9. So what? Hopefully the Skipper fucked him right up the pooper chuter with a rusty pineapple, sideways.

But THREE M240B 'incidents'? I happen to like this weapon platform, having been trained on it, simulator time, blank time, and live round time. It seems all three incidents just had one round discharge, which is consistent with 'riding the bolt home' without one's booger picker on the bang switch.

More training is definitely in order. I'm surprised all the quals weren't pulled. Even if I didn't deserve it, qualifying again would be a walk in the park even though I went through the training over 5 years ago.

I think all the idiots were E-4 or below. If it included E-5, get them too. As high as necessary.

On a side note... freakin' fleeters!!!
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:09:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:09:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:10:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:12:37 PM EDT
.....
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:14:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 5:16:40 PM EDT by JarheadChiro]
Shit, non-rates make the Military run.

Sounds like some ass chewing going around and through the ranks.

If you can't train them right do it yourselves.

And...

Your too irresponsible to do it.

Prides will be hurt, details attended to.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:14:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wave:
so....those below E-5 are no longer professional enough?

They are not Tier 1 yet, so no.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:16:08 PM EDT
I bet the Marine security guys are talking some major shit to the squabbies.........
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:16:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 5:18:11 PM EDT by rdblan2]
Good to see the Navy still believes everyone E4 and below are immature idiots.

Once had to get financial counseling to move off base from an E7 that just had his car repo'd that morning. Guess how that went?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:17:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 5:18:03 PM EDT by fettesbrotde]
Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
I bet the Marine security guys are talking some major shit to the squabbies.........


Marine security? What's that?

ETA: Not everyone in the Navy doesn't deal with firearms on a daily basis.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:18:38 PM EDT
All armed watch turnovers were supervised by the Duty Chief when I was in as of 2002.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:21:17 PM EDT
What a bunch of tard-helmets.

I was never a huge fan of doing Navy escorts. Too many of them had a CSW mount that liked to train on the pretty orange boats riding shotgun on them.

A lot of the guys are good, but having worked with the Navy quite a bit, some of thier weapons stuff makes me go
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:25:47 PM EDT
This, gentlemen, is what happens when training is dumbed down, or what big Navy would say, "simplified in order to save time and money because sailors only need to fire a very minimum of live rounds after similarly minimal weapons training." This is what happens when despite minimal training time allotted, watchbills must still be filled, so sailors that fail to qualify are given scores that barely meet minimums. Big Navy pisses and moans, then generally disapproves requests for training ammunition allotments, then they gasp in wonder when incidents like this happen.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:28:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wave:
so....those below E-5 are no longer professional enough?


The only ND I was ever present for was done by an E-5 SGT. Nothing is so loud as a boom instead of a click.

I propose we disarm the entire Military..................
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:29:46 PM EDT
Sounds like a training failure. Those E-5's and above need to train their sailors.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:32:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fxntime:
Originally Posted By Wave:
so....those below E-5 are no longer professional enough?


The only ND I was ever present for was done by an E-5 SGT. Nothing is so loud as a boom instead of a click.

I propose we disarm the entire Military..................
I know an E5 Ranger that ND'd a clearing barrel...it happens...fatigue etc...............

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:35:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 161Infantry:
I bet the Marine security guys are talking some major shit to the squabbies.........


Haven't had Marine Security on Navy ships for about 15 years.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:38:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ken914:
I've never been in the Navy... but in Army-speak, here's what this letter means:

"Okay, you mid-level leaders. Obviously, you can't get your shit together and keep Joe from having negligent discharges. At some point, your failure to train and supervise is gonna get one of us seniors fired. So, to give you some time to think about how to unfuck yourselves... YOU will be pulling the duty for your E-5 and below guys."


Huh Army- Marine Corps translation is almost identical, save for a few extra fucks on our side.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:39:00 PM EDT
That's what happens when you have people in charge that "have been downrange" and are set in their ways of finger on the trigger, weapon on fire at all times, and just a general disregard for safety.

I knew my squad leader (a fucking router fixer 25 series guy) was full of shit when he told me that when he cleared rooms in Iraq, he left his M4 in the truck because the M9 puts guy down better.

Our military has a huge problem. It's not direct gas vs. piston. It's not 5.56 vs 6.8. It's the fact that we don't have any modern firearms training.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:41:59 PM EDT
Stupid. Of course we did have a guy standing Petty Officer of the Watch that put a round through his foot right on the quarterdeck. The floor covering with the ship's logo stopped it cold, though. They should make vests out of that stuff.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:42:34 PM EDT
Well, at least the "negligent discharges" weren't with RIM-7 Sea Sparrows:

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:42:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MagazineFed:
That's what happens when you have people in charge that "have been downrange" and are set in their ways of finger on the trigger, weapon on fire at all times, and just a general disregard for safety.

I knew my squad leader (a fucking router fixer 25 series guy) was full of shit when he told me that when he cleared rooms in Iraq, he left his M4 in the truck because the M9 puts guy down better.

Our military has a huge problem. It's not direct gas vs. piston. It's not 5.56 vs 6.8. It's the fact that we don't have any modern firearms training.
I agree 100%.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:49:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Keekleberrys:
Originally Posted By Dustrod:
The location - A small FOB in Iraq

The situation - An NCO giving some professional instruction to a junior Marine on the AT-4

The result? Negligent discharge of an AT-4 INSIDE of a guard post with bulletproof glass.

Ran outside my little hooch thinking ti was a vbied but saw the guy fall out of the tower.

How they survived the back blast I have no idea


What happened to the NCO.


I don't what ever happened to the Marines involved, we were constantly moving FOB to FOB and running missions.

The battalion we were attached to (3/1) weren't soft with NJP's so....

I heard his excuse was that he didn't know it was loaded.

Pretty sure his MOS was not combat arms related......
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:50:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dustrod:
The location - A small FOB in Iraq

The situation - An NCO giving some professional instruction to a junior Marine on the AT-4

The result? Negligent discharge of an AT-4 INSIDE of a guard post with bulletproof glass.

Ran outside my little hooch thinking ti was a vbied but saw the guy fall out of the tower.

How they survived the back blast I have no idea



AT-4, as in, the rocket????
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:51:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rdblan2:
Good to see the Navy still believes everyone E4 and below are immature idiots.

Once had to get financial counseling to move off base from an E7 that just had his car repo'd that morning. Guess how that went?


That is part of what is going on. After serving in the Marines Corps as an 0311 in an active rifle platoon and reserve STA platoon, and then in the NG as an 11B, I got out. I started looking for a new unit in the fall of '01, and went into the Navy. I kept my E5 rank. I was astounded at how the Navy treated E4 and below like children. As an E5, I often said I was like a highly paid Lance Corporal. I'm a Chief now, and have pissed off a few people by saying the Navy has missed the boat on leadership. People think the Corps is filled with unthinking robots, but I was actually told in boot camp that I was to take initiative in the absence of orders.

The rest of what is going on is lack of weapons training in the Navy.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:52:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By frogwater:
Well, at least the "negligent discharges" weren't with RIM-7 Sea Sparrows:



Well there was a Navy frigate that put a 76mm round through the stack, killed the cheese-whiz, and set the helo hangar on fire while downloading...

and another one that cranked off a round out into town in Italy

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:38:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ridge_Runner_5:

Originally Posted By Dustrod:
The location - A small FOB in Iraq

The situation - An NCO giving some professional instruction to a junior Marine on the AT-4

The result? Negligent discharge of an AT-4 INSIDE of a guard post with bulletproof glass.

Ran outside my little hooch thinking ti was a vbied but saw the guy fall out of the tower.

How they survived the back blast I have no idea



AT-4, as in, the rocket????


Yeah I had a hard time believing somebody disengaged all the safeties and managed to fire it.

I think since he didn't attend the school of infantry and only used the 9mm trainer, he had no idea that they came preloaded.

Simply put - poor training.

And this guy was guarding the front entrance to the FOB.........
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:52:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ETCss_McCrackin:
This, gentlemen, is what happens when training is dumbed down, or what big Navy would say, "simplified in order to save time and money because sailors only need to fire a very minimum of live rounds after similarly minimal weapons training." This is what happens when despite minimal training time allotted, watchbills must still be filled, so sailors that fail to qualify are given scores that barely meet minimums. Big Navy pisses and moans, then generally disapproves requests for training ammunition allotments, then they gasp in wonder when incidents like this happen.


This was generally my experience also. ( 84-88 and 91-95)
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:56:49 PM EDT
Why aren't Marines doing these jobs? They are "Soldiers of the Sea"...

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 7:03:54 PM EDT
Everyone is getting too used to the push button bullshit and not training on the basics. They need to do more than just tell them what the dangerous end is.
I have seen this type of cluster before.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 7:06:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cn6145:
Originally Posted By ETCss_McCrackin:
This, gentlemen, is what happens when training is dumbed down, or what big Navy would say, "simplified in order to save time and money because sailors only need to fire a very minimum of live rounds after similarly minimal weapons training." This is what happens when despite minimal training time allotted, watchbills must still be filled, so sailors that fail to qualify are given scores that barely meet minimums. Big Navy pisses and moans, then generally disapproves requests for training ammunition allotments, then they gasp in wonder when incidents like this happen.


This was generally my experience also. ( 84-88 and 91-95)


Same here.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 7:06:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 7:16:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By freerider04:
Originally Posted By frogwater:
Well, at least the "negligent discharges" weren't with RIM-7 Sea Sparrows:



Well there was a Navy frigate that put a 76mm round through the stack, killed the cheese-whiz, and set the helo hangar on fire while downloading...

and another one that cranked off a round out into town in Italy



I was in stationed in Hawaii when one of the frigates CIWS emptied the entire drum of 20mm ammo into the hillside of Aeia Heights. Talk about a shitstorm, the CINCPAC was not pleased.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 7:21:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 7:23:05 PM EDT by Manic_Moran]
Originally Posted By frogwater:
Well, at least the "negligent discharges" weren't with RIM-7 Sea Sparrows:



There was an ND in a neighbouring unit when I was in Iraq with a 120mm tank round. I'm trying to figure out how you do that, because there's this great big f*ck-off arming lever that needs to be raised, the gunner's toggle needs to be selected, the trigger pulled, or the master blaster cranked.

We had one with a 155mm howitzer in Afghanistan as well. Apparently the usual 'Special instructions: Do not load" did not come over the radio for some reason, so instead of verifying the unusual request, the gun crew simply carried out their instructions as they received them. Deathly silence in the TOC when the BOOM came through the walls, all eyes turned to face the FDO. Then they all turned to the TV monitors where the impact area was under Predator observation.

I knew my squad leader (a fucking router fixer 25 series guy) was full of shit when he told me that when he cleared rooms in Iraq, he left his M4 in the truck because the M9 puts guy down better.


In fairness, I occasionally went with the M9, but just for mobility purposes.

NTM
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