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Posted: 9/5/2010 3:26:42 PM EDT
Why do the storm troopers in the original Star Wars appear to be very incompetent and are basically bumbling idiots. When in the newer movies (although prequels), they are well disciplined, well trained and very competent fighters?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:28:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:28:35 PM EDT
From what I've read, they were supposed to let them escape from the Death Star so they could locate the rebel base. Not sure how the hell they got beat by ewoks, though.

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Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:28:38 PM EDT
The early competent stormtroopers did not have Obama as a Commander-in-Chief.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:30:50 PM EDT
Perhaps since the story was written soon after the Vietnam war and so it was at a time when Lucas might of had a low opinion of the military?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:33:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 3:33:47 PM EDT by Evil_ATF]
The escape from the Death Star was orchestrated/allowed by Moff Tarkin. A tracking device was placed aboard the Millenium Falcon, which in turn allowed the Empire to track it back to the rebel base.

That was kind of a big plot twist and not at all subtle. I hear that Adderall works great for ADHD. Barring that, try meth.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:34:10 PM EDT
Perhaps when they began upgrading their forces and such, they removed Jango Fett's DNA from the process and replaced it with someone elses?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:34:12 PM EDT
maybe they ran out of clones and the ones left by the time of ep. IV were regular dudes from wherever
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:35:12 PM EDT
Because they're white. Everyone knows that a diverse force of individuals who have never met, don't trust each other, or don't even look like each other will make a much more effective fighting force than a homogenous group with similar beliefs, customs, and heritage. duh!
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:35:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Evil_ATF:
The escape from the Death Star was orchestrated/allowed by Moff Tarkin. A tracking device was placed aboard the Millenium Falcon, which in turn allowed the Empire to track it back to the rebel base.

That was kind of a big plot twist and not at all subtle. I hear that Adderall works great for ADHD. Barring that, try meth.

They're idiots in ALL 3 of the originals though.

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:36:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cossa:
maybe they ran out of clones and the ones left by the time of ep. IV were regular dudes from wherever

That's my understanding. I believe that the clones had a shorter lifespan. By the time 'A New Hope' rolled around, most/all of the stormtroopers were regular dudes.

Although in one Star Wars novel I read (the 2nd Thrawn Trilogy, whatever the name was), the storm troopers are hyped up to be uber badasses/SpecOps.

Continuity is a motherfucker.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:36:39 PM EDT
Original group (meaning the prequels) are clones of Jango Fett, and highly trained. Later they are just recruits with training and the armor.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:36:52 PM EDT
Because the original clone troopers in the prequels were well disciplined and trained, they were born and bred to be soldiers their entire lives.

The storm troopers in the original films were recruits from the empire.

Besides the ones that Luke and those guys fought were pogues on Death Star duty or fuck ups sent off to Endor or Tatooine.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:37:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By uxb:
The early competent stormtroopers did not have Obama as a Commander-in-Chief.


That would be Lord Darth Obama
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:39:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Remyrw:
Original group (meaning the prequels) are clones of Jango Fett, and highly trained. Later they are just recruits with training and the armor.


my understanding as well
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:39:50 PM EDT
being a SW nerd, I have read that after the events of Revenge of the Sith the Empire no longer created clones, by the time of Star Wars (A New Hope) over 75% of the Stormtroopers were non-clone conscripts. If my nerdness is correct, the only unit that remained 100% clone was Vader's 501st. He had no faith in non-clone Stormtroopers.

Jango clone troopers kicked ass, non-clone troopers were
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:40:08 PM EDT


Um........the storm troopers took their base on the planet Hoth.

In Return of the Jedi if you will notice the tide of battle CHANGES AFTER Darth Vader kills the Emperor. The emperor's WILL, through the force, was driving his military and when he died their WILL to fight also dies enabling the rebels to win.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:40:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
They're idiots in ALL 3 of the originals though.


Supposedly the Emporer (and possibly Vader?) were using some kind of Force power (Battle Meditation?) to control/unify their troops.

This would explain why they took down Leia's ship in 'A New Hope' with such violence of action (Vader was present), yet they sucked elsewhere...

My understanding is that a side effect of this Force power is that the units in question are disorganized without it.

It also explains why the Rebel fleet started kicking ass at the end of 'Jedi' as soon as Palpatine was distracted by Luke.

A true Star Wars geek could explain this better. I've only read a few of the "expanded universe" novels.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:40:43 PM EDT
Its all a plot device. No more complex reason.

The principle of evil marksmanship/ Inverse ninja law (wiki)

I actually found a book about inverse ninja law once, it was pretty interesting, but for the life of my i cannot remember its title.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:41:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Evil_ATF:
Originally Posted By Cossa:
maybe they ran out of clones and the ones left by the time of ep. IV were regular dudes from wherever

That's my understanding. I believe that the clones had a shorter lifespan. By the time 'A New Hope' rolled around, most/all of the stormtroopers were regular dudes.

Although in one Star Wars novel I read (the 2nd Thrawn Trilogy, whatever the name was), the storm troopers are hyped up to be uber badasses/SpecOps.

Continuity is a motherfucker.
Hmmm... brings this to mind:
"Aren't you kind of short for a storm trooper?"


Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:42:14 PM EDT
Genetic failure from replecating during cloning..

Look what happened to the SG-1 Asgard..
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:42:39 PM EDT
Because Star Wars, as entertaining as it is, is not exactly good story-telling.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:43:40 PM EDT
Copy generation errors. Watch the documentary Multiplicity for more information.



Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:44:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Remyrw:
Original group (meaning the prequels) are clones of Jango Fett, and highly trained. Later they are just recruits with training and the armor.

that's a good explanation.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:50:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mal_means_bad:
Copy generation errors. Watch the documentary Multiplicity for more information.

http://www.blueacorn.com/images/multiplicity-II-pagination.jpg





That plus some other explanations.


There's the fact that early clones were Jango Fett clones combined with the training they received from Mandolorian soldiers while on Camino. Then there was an outsourcing of cloning so to speak. Read the Republic Commando series of books and it tries to address this issue regarding the fact that clones were made on an entirely different planet and they were essentially lied to about the fact that the new troops were not in fact receiving training on Camino. Some of the books talk about the new troopers in Republic Commando Triple Zero and Order 66.

And lastly, they Millennium Falcon was supposedly allowed to escape since it did have a tracking device installed on it. But it doesn't explain the numerous other examples of piss poor marksmanship.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:50:58 PM EDT
I always thought it was dumb how they went from droids, to clones, and then the losers they had from A New Hope to Jedi. Bring back the Clones I say.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:51:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mal_means_bad:
Copy generation errors. Watch the documentary Multiplicity for more information.

http://www.blueacorn.com/images/multiplicity-II-pagination.jpg

Bullshit. Pure work of fiction.

If the technology existed to clone humans at that time, even the faggiest fag in all of Faggy-land would have cloned Andie MacDowell instead of Batman.

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:56:00 PM EDT
If you keep cloneing the species gets weaker ?
Farmers get in here, at least I hear something like that from tomato farmers here
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:00:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
Why do the storm troopers in the original Star Wars appear to be very incompetent and are basically bumbling idiots. When in the newer movies (although prequels), they are well disciplined, well trained and very competent fighters?

Prequel troopers are clones of a Mandolorian warrior and trained from birth to fight. They obey orders, but think about how best to accomplish the order.

Trilogy Troopers are recruited from the population and then trained to mindlessly obey any order.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:06:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:07:55 PM EDT
Consideration of Others
Prevention of SExual Harrassment
Suicide Prevention
SAEDA
Resiliancy
Risk Assessment class.
Imperical Values 101

They really ran out of time to train with all the mandatory classes.
The rebels didn't have this problem.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:08:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By theskuh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E93qQhzKjIU

You try walking around in a Stormtrooper helmet all day. You can't see shit. We always have to get an escort through tight spaces for ours at events.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:09:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By theskuh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E93qQhzKjIU


Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:09:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Consideration of Others
Prevention of SExual Harrassment
Suicide Prevention
SAEDA
Resiliancy
Risk Assessment class.
Imperical Values 101

They really ran out of time to train with all the mandatory classes.
The rebels didn't have this problem.



Isn't that the damn truth.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:39:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Consideration of Others
Prevention of SExual Harrassment
Suicide Prevention
SAEDA
Resiliancy
Risk Assessment class.
Imperical Values 101

They really ran out of time to train with all the mandatory classes.
The rebels didn't have this problem.


Don't forget about their weekly safety briefings and vehicle inspections

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:43:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Evil_ATF:
Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
They're idiots in ALL 3 of the originals though.


Supposedly the Emporer (and possibly Vader?) were using some kind of Force power (Battle Meditation?) to control/unify their troops.

This would explain why they took down Leia's ship in 'A New Hope' with such violence of action (Vader was present), yet they sucked elsewhere...

My understanding is that a side effect of this Force power is that the units in question are disorganized without it.

It also explains why the Rebel fleet started kicking ass at the end of 'Jedi' as soon as Palpatine was distracted by Luke.

A true Star Wars geek could explain this better. I've only read a few of the "expanded universe" novels.


It is discussed in the Thrawn Series I am pretty sure. But you got the jist of it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:46:56 PM EDT
They were clones...and after a while, the system started breaking down because Jar Jar put his jizz jizz into the mix at some point
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:48:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mal_means_bad:
Copy generation errors. Watch the documentary Multiplicity for more information.

http://www.blueacorn.com/images/multiplicity-II-pagination.jpg



So you're saying it was copy degradation?

"Yeah, Herb over there is a Gen 5 clone. We don't let him have loaded weapons. Watch your head there, Herb!"



Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:52:08 PM EDT
The movies-only answer is that in IV, the stormies were supposed to let the rebels escape. In V, the stormies killed a whole lot of rebels (mostly off screen), and they fairly effectively locked down Cloud City––the only reason the rebels were able to escape was because Lando was the administrator, and was able to work out an escape plan using his own forces to fight the stormies. VI: the screen-only answer is that the Ewoks were simply able to win...

Accepted canon agrees with all of the above except for VI. In VI, the initial force lost easily in order to capture the rebels. Then, later, the stormies were hugely outnumbered by Ewoks, but were killing MANY more Ewoks than Ewoks were killing stormies. Later, the Stormies lost because the Emperor died. He was using a Force ability called "Battle Meditation" whereby he controlled much of what the Imperial forces were doing through the Force. His death was why the Imperial Fleet assembled at Endor lost cohesion so quickly and why the Executor was so easily defeated. It is also why the stormies on the ground lost cohesion and lost to an inferior force. In the books, the XO of the SD Chimera (Captain Palleaon) ordered the remnants to fall back to Annaj.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:54:11 PM EDT
Ewoks in the treeeees, maaaaaaaan!
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:55:52 PM EDT
The main Kaminoan doctor, Taun We, left Kamino sometime after ANH, and left with the process of producing competent clones (along with the ability to heal Boba Fett). Boba was a clone, obviously, but he was of the first batch of clones produced, and there was some complications which plagued him and the first batch of clones with chronic health problems. The only difference was that he was not given the growth hormone. The average clone was of 30 years in body composition, but of 8 years mentally. In the book "Bloodlines" it goes into how Boba tries to track down Taun We to heal him because he was in the Sarlacc, and of his chronic health problems.

Anyways, the stormtroopers (changed their name to stormtroopers after RoTS) were starting to deteriorate, because of galactic tensions, and Jango's DNA was starting to deteriorate, so the stormtroopers started to be produced with bad DNA. It didn't help that Taun We left. Eventually the Galactic Empire started recruiting for foot soldiers outside of actual clones, and had a large mixture of people amongst the ranks including Twi'lek, Mon Cal, Bothan, and some others (can't think of any else at the moment). Non-clone humans populated the officer ranks, and controlled the garrisons on the planets.

the TLDR version:
Taun We left, Jango's DNA deteriorated, Empire started recruiting other races.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:56:23 PM EDT


The later Storm Troopers demanded, and received, bacon in their rations.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:59:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 6:01:45 PM EDT by ByNameRequest]
Originally Posted By DT120:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Consideration of Others
Prevention of SExual Harrassment
Suicide Prevention
SAEDA
Resiliancy
Risk Assessment class.
Imperical Values 101

They really ran out of time to train with all the mandatory classes.
The rebels didn't have this problem.


Don't forget about their weekly safety briefings and vehicle inspections





ETA: Don't forget–– also they ran out of funds for training towards the end of the fiscal year....
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:03:21 PM EDT
Somewhere along the way, the decision was made to never aim or unfold the stocks on their Sterling SMG/E-11 Blaster Rifles.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:03:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ByNameRequest:
Originally Posted By DT120:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Consideration of Others
Prevention of SExual Harrassment
Suicide Prevention
SAEDA
Resiliancy
Risk Assessment class.
Imperical Values 101

They really ran out of time to train with all the mandatory classes.
The rebels didn't have this problem.


Don't forget about their weekly safety briefings and vehicle inspections





ETA: Don't forget–– also they ran out of funds for training towards the end of the fiscal year....




Hmm, sounds about right!
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:15:43 PM EDT
I'd think that the majority of them wouldn't have any battle experience. Ah man not another drill.

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:25:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tech-Com:
I'd think that the majority of them wouldn't have any battle experience. Ah man not another drill.



There was extensive battles that weren't covered in the movies, a lot of the units weren't actually seen. If memory serves me right, the Snowtroopers are actually Galactic Marines retrained for arctic conditions trained under Commander Bacara. This is why the units during the battle of Hoth were so quick in capturing the rebel base.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:44:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Consideration of Others
Prevention of SExual Harrassment
Suicide Prevention
SAEDA
Resiliancy
Risk Assessment class.
Imperical Values 101

They really ran out of time to train with all the mandatory classes.
The rebels didn't have this problem.


Ain't that the fuckin truth. If I see another "I A.M. Strong" poster, I'm going to snap.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:50:07 PM EDT
The only reason they did good on the rebel ship at the beginning of "A New Hope" was because it was so god damned confined in their, and they were BOUND to hit the rebels in sheer numbers

The halls of the death star were much more open, and there were much fewer of them per "area" so the were back to the shotgun approach




Ohh and in before the shit storm
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:55:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:

Originally Posted By Evil_ATF:
The escape from the Death Star was orchestrated/allowed by Moff Tarkin. A tracking device was placed aboard the Millenium Falcon, which in turn allowed the Empire to track it back to the rebel base.

That was kind of a big plot twist and not at all subtle. I hear that Adderall works great for ADHD. Barring that, try meth.

They're idiots in ALL 3 of the originals though.

Empire? They did a good assault on the Hoth base and secured Cloud city effectively...?

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:56:18 PM EDT
Clone troopers were clones of Jango Fett, a highly trained Bounty Hunter.

The storm troopers in A New Hope and on, were all regular joes.
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