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Posted: 9/4/2010 10:24:56 PM EDT
I am looking for a gun for my two sons and maybe my wife to shoot. I have a 13 yr old, 16 year old and a wife. They shoot a .270 but the recoil is a little sharp. I want something that doesn't kick as hard. The primary game will be western mule deer, but there is the off chance they might hunt elk with it. I can always step up to the .270 if they want to hunt elk, so that's a maybe, not a definite.

I had settled on a .243 with premium bullets, and was looking at a savage m11 DM in .243. I went to cabelas to look at them tonight and found two other guns:

a Remington M7 in .243 with a Nikon ProSeries 3x9 scope. Stainless Steel, Composite stock for 599.00
I also found a sweet looking Ruger M77 Hawkeye in 7-08 for 599

as well. The ruger has one of the best triggers I've ever felt. The Remington M7 was not much worse. so now I'm stuck. Help me decide:

1) Savage 11 Detachable mag in .243: $365.00
- Composite stock
-cheap bushnell scope
- ok but not great trigger
-customizable with tac stock, and aftermarket trigger and barrel

2) Remington Model 7 Stainless and nikon pro-staff 3x9 in .243: $599.00
-slim and light
-comes with scope
-composite stalk
-stainless action/barrel

3) Ruger Hawkeye 7-08 wood stock : $599.00
-wood stock
-GREAT trigger
-probably better caliber for mule deer/elk


Help!


Link Posted: 9/4/2010 10:27:16 PM EDT
308, get a muzzle brake for 50-100 bucks +25-50 install.
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 10:33:06 PM EDT
243 with Hornady Interlok ammo. Deadly combo on deer. Get a Savage with an accutrigger.
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 10:35:26 PM EDT
Savage 110fp in .308
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 10:42:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2010 10:42:43 PM EDT by crashburnrepeat]
ETA:

I already own a Remington 700 SPS Tactical in .308 that is OK on recoil, but it's a heavy mother! All three of these other guns are pretty light and trim.

I was operating on the assumption that a .243 and a 7mm-08 would have a ballistic advantage
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 10:49:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat:
ETA:

I already own a Remington 700 SPS Tactical in .308 that is OK on recoil, but it's a heavy mother! All three of these other guns are pretty light and trim.

I was operating on the assumption that a .243 and a 7mm-08 would have a ballistic advantage


Get a decent sling for the Rem 700 and tell them to quit whining. If the weight of it is that unbearable maybe you should start them lifting weights. Why add more calibres I'm guessing you do not yet own?


I believe PTR makes a 91-type in .243 IIRC

Link Posted: 9/4/2010 10:50:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat:
ETA:

I already own a Remington 700 SPS Tactical in .308 that is OK on recoil, but it's a heavy mother! All three of these other guns are pretty light and trim.

I was operating on the assumption that a .243 and a 7mm-08 would have a ballistic advantage


The Deer are not going to know, and I doubt anyone save the truely most avid hunter will benefit from the wunder calibers for deer which only show advantages at long range.

30-30, 308 or 3006 are fine. I prefer mil calibers for cheaper off season plinking fun and ease of getting brass to reload.
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 10:56:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mattl:
Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat:
ETA:

I already own a Remington 700 SPS Tactical in .308 that is OK on recoil, but it's a heavy mother! All three of these other guns are pretty light and trim.

I was operating on the assumption that a .243 and a 7mm-08 would have a ballistic advantage


Get a decent sling for the Rem 700 and tell them to quit whining. If the weight of it is that unbearable maybe you should start them lifting weights. Why add more calibres I'm guessing you do not yet own?


I believe PTR makes a 91-type in .243 IIRC



OK, fair enough for the 16 year old, but the 13 year old, it's a chunk of a gun....


I don't mind adding calibers as I reload....
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 11:02:37 PM EDT
I would imagine that a CZ 527 in 7.62x39 would make a great youth gun.
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 11:09:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2010 11:53:49 PM EDT by Righteous]
I did not vote, but I have owned Qty. 2 Remington 7mm-08s, one was a Model 7 SS, the other a 700 Stainless/Lam Mtn Rifle and I sold them both, neither would shoot very well. Pencily barrels, etc. I used good ammo and all kinds as well. Shots would string with both rifles, bedded or not bedded. Me shooting or someone else shooting the effect was always the same.

I will add this to the list. Have you considered a Tikka?

The one i like is the T3 Lite Stainless. It has stock spacers, etc that can be fitted to the shooter. The two I know of both shoot under an inch with factory ammo and they are a very good buy. Cabela's should have them in stock as well.

My personal choice would be a .308 since it could step up for an elk if needed, but given your choices I would say a .243 with the premium bullets would be the best.

All of the rifles you listed would work just fine. The only other thing that bothers me is the safety on the Ruger, I wish they would have given it a bit more surface area for manipulation, similar to the Model 70.

The Tikka would not need any work. It would be good from the get go.

Good luck!
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 11:50:18 PM EDT
If it were me, I'd install a Decelerator or similar pad on your 270. That should make it kick less.

Then load up some 130gr Partitions at 2850 fps. That is a slightly reduced load that will kick less and still knock down Bambi at reasonable ranges.

Of the choices, I like the 7MM-08 but I don't care for Rugers. Probably the Savage in 243.

I think I'll throw a wrench in the works. I don't own one of these, but I like them.

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/STEVENS%20200%20SHORT
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 11:51:23 PM EDT
Either or.
I like the Remington Model 7.
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 11:54:57 PM EDT
six of one,

or

a half dozen of the other.
Link Posted: 9/4/2010 11:57:26 PM EDT
260
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 12:24:35 AM EDT
Its hard to beat a .243, put a recoil pad on it, its just ........sweet. Nikon is a killer scope. I've had a couple one of the best-for-the-money. Go Remington!!!
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 12:46:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bcooke212:
260




I like the .260 as well. Only the savage gives me the option to go to the .260 in the future (affordably). albeit at about 300 bucks extra to go .260
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 12:47:42 AM EDT
Managed recoil ammunition from Remington.

And there is no way in hell I would let a novice hunter take a crack at an elk with a .243.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:14:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 1:17:34 AM EDT by Razzman1]
.243 seems to work pretty well. I don't know if you are open to other suggestions, but a lightweight, 16" barreled AR in 6.8 makes a great deer rifle out to 300 yards (more depending on load and skill). Recoil is negligent compared to a .270. .243 or .308, and they are pretty handy. If you have a spare lower sitting around, you could build an upper for about the cost of the other rifles.

ETA: Saw the comment about the possibility of elk. That might rule out the 6.8 (although there are guys on the 6.8forum who have hunted elk with a 6.8).
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:18:13 AM EDT
There is always the 6.5 Swede to consider. The recoil should be light enough for a youth, or a small woman to shoot, and it would certainly be more ethical to shoot elk with, than a .243.
This is a caliber they can grow up with, and even use it frequently in adulthood, on any game in North America. Scandinavians have used it on some pretty big game for about a hundred years now.

A Tikka t3 would be good if you can find it in 6.5, otherwise a CZ-550 in 6.5 would do it. I'm not sure how small your 13yo is, but I think those rifles are light enough for anyone.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:29:43 AM EDT
The Hawkeye is an absolutely amazing rifle.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 2:23:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 2:25:32 AM EDT by dbd870]
Model 7 in 260 was my answer. Thinking about the guy who had issues with the Model 7 - I had trouble getting mine to shoot well, it took several attempts to find a bullet it liked so it may be one you have to be willing to play with. If I were forced to choose only 1 of my rifles for deer it would probably be the winner.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 8:43:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NuCkInFuTz:
There is always the 6.5 Swede to consider. The recoil should be light enough for a youth, or a small woman to shoot, and it would certainly be more ethical to shoot elk with, than a .243.
This is a caliber they can grow up with, and even use it frequently in adulthood, on any game in North America. Scandinavians have used it on some pretty big game for about a hundred years now.

A Tikka t3 would be good if you can find it in 6.5, otherwise a CZ-550 in 6.5 would do it. I'm not sure how small your 13yo is, but I think those rifles are light enough for anyone.


I love the 6.5x55, I lived in Finland for 2 years and that's what everyone there used. I think it's one of the best cartridges ever. This is why I wanted a savage in the first place, I can let them hunt deer with the .243 and then when they get older and start hunting elk, we can switch it to .260 Rem or .308.

I think the older boy is going to use the .308 for this hunt and the younger boy the smaller rifle, whichever one we choose. If we get the Rem or the Hawkeye it'll pretty much stay as is cause I can't change the barrel myself or anything. The savage I have some choices as we go go.


I sort of had this idea that when they get older and get heavier dedicated hunting rifles of their own, I'll build a poor mans tactical rifle out of the savage or something, switch it to .260 Rem, put a Savage Shooters Supply trigger on it and a good stock. etc.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:23:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 9:59:32 AM EDT by Bubbatheredneck]
7-08 is a great caliber.

It is the modern equivalent of the 7X57 Mauser, a round proven in Africa for decades.

The selection of bullets for the 7mm is much greater than .243

My rifle shoots one hole groups with 139 gr bullets and 1.4" groups with 175gr bullets.

I have handloaded low recoil 120 gr loads that my kids started shooting at age 12 or so. Very easy on the shoulder.

It is good up to elk (with the right load), a tad light for moose. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a black bear with one if that is all I had.

.243 is so-so in my book. Too much recoil for varmints all day, and a bit lacking on some deer and deer shots. Perfect for yotes and that is about all.

If someone gave me a .243, I would sell it, take the loss,and buy a 7mm-08.

My longest shot on deer with mine is a bang-flop on a doe at 380 yards.


7mm-08, no contest.

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:25:26 AM EDT
Savage in .30-06 with reduced recoil loads.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:25:43 AM EDT
At his age I shot a 7mm Mauser. A lot of the factory 175gr loads are light kicking because they are only 2300 fps. Still plenty for a pass through.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:41:48 AM EDT
That's cool that you're able to get the whole family involved. I think your choices are fine, you won't go wrong with any of them.

The only downside I found when looking at a 7-08 was that ammo was not nearly as ubiquitous as say .270 or .308. .243 should be fine too. It's too bad .260 isn't more popular that one would be great too.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:44:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bcooke212:
260


This or a .270, .270 WSM
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:48:06 AM EDT
7mm-08 hands down.

better bullets
heavier bullets
low recoil

my 9year old shoots the shit out of his Howa youth model.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 12:20:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
7-08 is a great caliber.

It is the modern equivalent of the 7X57 Mauser, a round proven in Africa for decades.

The selection of bullets for the 7mm is much greater than .243

My rifle shoots one hole groups with 139 gr bullets and 1.4" groups with 175gr bullets.

I have handloaded low recoil 120 gr loads that my kids started shooting at age 12 or so. Very easy on the shoulder.

It is good up to elk (with the right load), a tad light for moose. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a black bear with one if that is all I had.

.243 is so-so in my book. Too much recoil for varmints all day, and a bit lacking on some deer and deer shots. Perfect for yotes and that is about all.

If someone gave me a .243, I would sell it, take the loss,and buy a 7mm-08.

My longest shot on deer with mine is a bang-flop on a doe at 380 yards.


7mm-08, no contest.



preach it..

Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:32:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 1:33:09 PM EDT by glazer1972]
I voted for the Stainless Remington Model 7, .243 + Nikon Scope but that was before I saw ELK so better make it the Ruger Hawkeye youth in 7-08 and great trigger.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:33:13 PM EDT
What about .25-06?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:36:29 PM EDT
I can tell you that a lightweight 7mm-08 has a little pop, but not too bad. I have one in a Remington 700 Ti, and the recoil is a little more than my wife can handle (and still shoot well). The recoil on the .243 is nil, but I don't really like the round as a deer caliber. I say go with the 7mm-08, simply because your kids aren't getting any smaller, and should be able to "grow" into the gun.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:37:32 PM EDT
what kind of retard would choose a model 7 over a Hawkeye?
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:40:36 PM EDT
One of the old classic Mauser calibers, either a 6.5x55 Swede( my preference) or a 7x57. If you or they should get into real target shooting, the 6.5 has some bullets with extremely high ballistic coeffiecents that let them fly through the air better and retain velocity for a better long range trajectory, the 123gr Serria Match Kings and Lapuas from Finland being probably the two best. The Swedish round can handle a bit heavier bullet so it even gets better. Both in factory loads or military surplus are loaded mild in deference to the old,, 100+ year old rifles, I have a one Swedish Mauser made in 1898 to give an example, and are very mild in the recoil dept.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:44:09 PM EDT
I know it's not on the option list since you're shooting mule deer and elk, but my oldest took a small doe last year with his AR.




FWIW, DPMS does make quite a few uppers in various calibers including .243, 6.8 SPC, and .260 Remington.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 1:50:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tyrex13:
what kind of retard would choose a model 7 over a Hawkeye?


Someone who doesn't like Rugers.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:17:26 PM EDT
UPDATE: I took the boys and wife to cabelas and it was unanimous: they all liked the savage 11 in .243 so we got that. After gift cards and award cards it was $5.50 out the door . I had them mount the alaskan guide 4.5x14x40mm scope I stole from them last year (75% off).

I can't wait to shoot it. I'm going to maybe buy the hawkeye 7-08 for myself though. I love that thing
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:24:43 PM EDT
I had them mount the alaskan guide 4.5x14x40mm scope I stole from them last year (75% off)


Great scopes, BTW. I've owned several of them, and the glass is excellent. If I am not mistaken, I believe they are built by the same Japanese company turning out Sightron scopes.

Just make sure you use a quality bullet in the .243, and make sure the kids use proper shot placement.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:28:54 PM EDT
im for the Savage. never been a Remington fan.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:28:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By glazer1972:
Originally Posted By tyrex13:
what kind of retard would choose a model 7 over a Hawkeye?


Someone who doesn't like Rugers.


A big +1!

Congrats on the 11. I really like the 11/111's.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:54:44 PM EDT
Get the heaviest monumental bullets available.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:06:18 PM EDT
7-08 have the potential for slightly larger game.

243 have the potential for slightly smaller game.

All sound like decent choices.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:11:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 4:16:02 PM EDT by RIA45ACP]
Pick one both do the job just fine in my experience.. 243 I use the Sierra 85 Grain HPBT Gameking, 7mm I like the 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. I will say that for a younger shooter whose shot placement might not be precise a 7mm might be more forgiving.


ETA: I hand load but I believe Federal offers the Sierra 85 Gr HPBT in a factory load.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:25:31 PM EDT
You did fine with the .243.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 4:27:17 PM EDT
Model 7 in a .308
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 5:53:22 PM EDT
Down here in Arkansas, for whitetails, .223 is fine.

If I were going for larger prey, .243 would be my minimum. I'd prefer .450 Bushmaster, just because it's a badass round, and something I don't have.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 6:03:52 PM EDT
I taught both my boys to hunt with a 7-08. Even in a Stevens Youth rifle recoil is mild with 120 Grain loads. I gave it to my buddy for his 12 year old.

I still have a couple of 7-08's and they shoot very well. I bought a Savage in stainless with accustock and accutrigger last winter for $500. and it's a tack driver.

My dad and brother have used .243 for deer for years. With great shot placement it's fine on northern whitetails, but there can be a lot of tracking if you don't hit the heart, head or spine. 7-08, even with the 120's, seems to do a lot more damage.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:08:50 PM EDT
I bought a box of Hornady 95 gr SSTs to load up, I also bought some 95 gr Nosler Partitions to try. I need to find some of the 120's as well. they have a Stephens in .308 for 250. I may get that one and a 7mm-08 or a .260 barrel for that one.

The boys are going on a "mentor" hunt with their grandparents, which gives them a resident tag in Idaho even though we live in Utah. So their shots will be pretty controlled, and will be small bucks or does.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:13:05 PM EDT
You should really also look at Tikka. Hell of a lot of gun for the money. I have one in 338 wm and it has been flawless
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:24:51 PM EDT
Been using a model seven in a 243 for the last 9 years. 6 deer, chased none.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 9:32:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2010 9:33:12 PM EDT by Bubbatheredneck]
Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat:
UPDATE: I took the boys and wife to cabelas and it was unanimous: they all liked the savage 11 in .243 so we got that. After gift cards and award cards it was $5.50 out the door . I had them mount the alaskan guide 4.5x14x40mm scope I stole from them last year (75% off).

I can't wait to shoot it. I'm going to maybe buy the hawkeye 7-08 for myself though. I love that thing







I hope yall enjoy the new rifle!







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