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Posted: 4/12/2002 2:40:37 PM EDT
OK, I know 4 of you do and you guys can consider yourselves exempted from this topic. You may participate if you wish, but I know those who believe the Bible literally believe EVERYTHING in it. I'm not gonna waste my time trying to convince you otherwise and I understand if you do the same. But for the rest of you, Do you really believe in the boogeyman with the red asbestos suit? The guy running around f*cking everything up and forcing Jimmy Swaggart to have sex with prostitues? The guy who is making life hard for Gary Condit? I personally think this is just some crap dreamt up to excuse someone who got caught with their pants down... "OH NO! The DEVIL made me do it!" And let me save the first guy who thinks he's clever some trouble... "Satans greatest achievement is convincing Man he doesn't exist." I guess that makes the Easter Bunny pretty f*cking smart too.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 2:46:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 2:47:30 PM EDT
Yes, and one day you will too.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 2:48:46 PM EDT
Yup. I used to have the same opinion as you, dude.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 2:52:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 2:53:13 PM EDT
The devil made you write that crap. Get a hold of your mind Jesus can help.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 2:53:56 PM EDT
No. I'm a buddhist. Those cats (good or evil)don't exist. Sorry.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 2:54:13 PM EDT
nope,....Im with steyr
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 2:57:00 PM EDT
Yes I do.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 2:58:42 PM EDT
Yes. I would have to think that there are more than four guys here that believe in the Bible and everything in it. If I'm totally wrong by believing in the Word then I won't know it when I die. If you're wrong, you'll know it.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:02:01 PM EDT
Yeah, and why not? Personally, I went for the hole package. Tooth fairy, goblins, vampires, werwolves, devils, daimons, daemons and demons (3 for the price of one), I believe it all, yessir! Earth would also be the center of the universe (if there was one), she's flat, and not older than 6,000 years. (Hmm, sounds like Rachael, the jewish housewife from next door.)
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:04:02 PM EDT
A Satanist believes in the Devil. Christians have heard OF the Devil. Some are former Satanists.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:04:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2002 3:06:21 PM EDT by wiggy762]
According to modern mathematics, nuclear physics and older philosophy, there can be no good without there also being evil. No yin then no yang, no positive without a negative, no yes without a no. If you start with the statement that there is a God, then you must aknowledge that the negative image of God must exist. The existance of Satan is one of the things that sets Christianity apart from the other 'religions'. Most other religions set a moral code for living life, but there is no negative consequence for not following this path. Christianity also has a moral code, similar to other 'religions', but if you do not accept Christ in your heart, you will go to Hell and meet Satan. This is not something you want to do. Satan exists and has free rein to be as nasty as he can until Jesus' return. His goal is to maximize the number of people he can turn away from God. His greatest weapon is our sense of pride in being in charge of our lives. The sense that we actually control most everything that happens to us. That all of our successes are due to our abilities and that our failures are due to fate and kismet. If Satan can convince you that there is no God, or that God is not for you, then he has won and you will be judged. Upon Jesus' return, Satan will also be judged and will be sentenced to spending enternity in Hell with all of the people he was successful in turning away from God. Satan's best trick is not to convince you that he does not exist, his best trick is to have you believe that you do not need God and therefore God does nopt exist for you. He is VERY good at what he does and has been thwarted only with God's help. I am always struggling with the 'I, Me, Mine, My, etc' complex for all of my Christian life. I keep reminding myself that with God all things are possible, and without Him nothing is possible but pain and suffering. And now with the Benediction... [singing] "praise God from whom all blessings flow..... BTW - Am I included in the 4 that you already know about or did I slip under your radar? [:D]
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:04:46 PM EDT
Jesus certainly did.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:05:28 PM EDT
there is good and evil in us all. satan plays a part as does God, allowing us to be tested to see where we are at and our spiritual maturity. devil: yes God: yes If you have other beliefs, I respect that and don't try and force things upon people. Yet if you are curious and wanna talk more.....I'm always up to chat/debate/whatever
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:05:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:09:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wiggy762: The existance of Satan is one of the things that sets Christianity apart from the other 'religions'.
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Actually no. Zoorastrianism gave us the very name "Satan" and other religions also had evil gods opposed by good gods. Christianity is somewhat unique in that it implies that God himself created this evil, necessarily knowing beforehand what would result. I don't view this as a good thing.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:10:27 PM EDT
To answer the question, definitely not. I stopped believing in the Devil before I stopped believing in God. There is no need for some supernatural manifestation of evil...humans are capable of originating evil all on their own.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:19:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thedave1164: yes, and I have personally seen the acts of fallen angels perpetrated on mankind.
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Ditto on the above, I'll also add, I've met some of them. They knew it, so did I....
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:19:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By wiggy762: The existance of Satan is one of the things that sets Christianity apart from the other 'religions'.
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Actually no. Zoorastrianism gave us the very name "Satan" and other religions also had evil gods opposed by good gods. Christianity is somewhat unique in that it implies that God himself created this evil, necessarily knowing beforehand what would result. I don't view this as a good thing.
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Two issues; 1. I do apologize. I am not, nor have I purported to be an expert on other 'religions'. I do use that term loosely to describe a belief system that many people put stock into. Does the possibility exist that Satan will use 98% of God's truth to fool people and be wrong about the other 2%. Just enough wrong to keep the followers of this 'religion' out of heaven. 2. What about God being omniscient strikes you as a bad thing? Personally, I want my God to know all that has happened and all that will happen. I want him to know the sparrows by name and to know the number of hairs on my head. In short, I want Him to be everywhere and everything
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:24:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2002 3:27:24 PM EDT by LotBoy]
Yes, and he lives next door! [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/devil_2.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:29:36 PM EDT
When you ascend to heaven for your judgement Satan will be the prosecuting attorney. It might be wise to have a good defense attorney when you stand before The Judge! Christ will suffice.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:31:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wiggy762: According to modern mathematics, nuclear physics and older philosophy, there can be no good without there also being evil. No yin then no yang, no positive without a negative, no yes without a no.
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All things are not necessarily dichotomous. An example: how many dimensions are there, currently? What does this tell us about being/existence vs. non-existence? Is it really all or nothing?
Satan exists and has free rein to be as nasty as he can until Jesus' return. His goal is to maximize the number of people he can turn away from God.
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Why? What is Satan's motivation? And even better, what is God's motivation for making Satan? Is it too stupid to ask, what is the point of all this good vs. evil stuff anyway? Why is it really necessary if God is "Supreme"?
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:35:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: A Satanist believes in the Devil. Christians have heard OF the Devil. Some are former Satanists.
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Hummm.... I don't want to bust your bubble, but I do believe, and I can say this with more than a bit of conviction, your first sentence shows your lack of true understanding of the topic. Simply put, a 'Satanist' has no interest in YOUR devil, or YOUR god. Your assumption that a 'Satanist' believes in YOUR devil is the sort of tripe spouted by the fundie christian TV money-raisers... Here's the definition from [url]www.religioustolerance.org[/url] Most religious historians, mainline Christians, liberal Christians, etc., view Satanism as Satanists themselves view their religion: a very small religious group that is unrelated to any other faith, and whose members feel free to satisfy their urges, exhibit kindness to their friends, and attack their enemies. There are perhaps ten thousand Satanists in North America. Accurate numbers are quite impossible to estimate. Conservative Christians generally believe that there are only two powerful supernatural forces in the world: their God and Satan. A few of them believe If a person does not worship their God and hold their beliefs, then they must be worshiping Satan -- the latter are, by definition, Satanists. Thus, they view all religions different from their own to be are forms of Satanism. Satanists would then make up perhaps 95% or more of the world's population. Using this definition, the term "Satanism" becomes almost meaningless. So... do I believe in the devil? Not hardly...
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:35:50 PM EDT
My birthday is on his day![devil]
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:51:48 PM EDT
I belive he does exist,just as GOD exists.If satan did not exist,then i would not hava to buy all this hardware.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:53:34 PM EDT
OK,if there ain't no devil,who the hell is janet reno?
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:58:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: Why? What is Satan's motivation? And even better, what is God's motivation for making Satan? Is it too stupid to ask, what is the point of all this good vs. evil stuff anyway? Why is it really necessary if God is "Supreme"?
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At the extreme risk of oversimplification, here goes... Satan considers himself on the same level as God... Isaiah 14:13-15 "You said in your heart, I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God: I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly on the upmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." Lucifier and the angels that choose to follow him were cast out of heaven down to earth. Lucifier/Satan has been allowed to have a temporary reign on the earth. For example, he was allowed to try Adam and Eve in the garden. The overall reason for this is allow God to demonstrate his forgiveness and grace towards his creation. Christ died to provide a means for sinful man to have a way to an absolutely holy God. We each have to make the same simple choice Adam and Eve did. Believe or not, it is your choice. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Hope that wasn't too much oversimplified... [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/biggrin2.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:04:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott:
Originally Posted By wiggy762:
Satan exists and has free rein to be as nasty as he can until Jesus' return. His goal is to maximize the number of people he can turn away from God.
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Why? What is Satan's motivation? And even better, what is God's motivation for making Satan? Is it too stupid to ask, what is the point of all this good vs. evil stuff anyway? Why is it really necessary if God is "Supreme"?
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I will do my best to answer your questions, but understand that I do not have a command of scripture chapter and verse that garandman or ETH has.[:)] IIRC, God did not create Satan per se. Satan, at the time an angel, tried to engineer a coup d'etat to overthrow God and set himself as the 'new' God. Satan and his allies, other angels, were cast out from heaven and have since waged a war with God. My father, a preacher, explained it like this; God and Satan have been arguing about which of them is greater. The earth and humans were created to be God's children and to be pure, without sin. Satan saw this and wanted to finally win so he convinced humans to sin. This original sin upset God's plan for the Garden of Eden to be a heaven on earth without pain or death. Once sin was introduced, all manner of ills came to be for humans, painful childbirth, death, etc. and they were cast out of the Garden of Eden. Satan had scored a victory and by doing so introduced a choice for God's children either turn to God and join him after our time on earth is done, or turn away from God and embrace sin. "The wages of sin are death, everlasting death". There are several accounts, in the Bible of God fighting the Devil. The Old Testament book of Job is the most detailed, to summarize; Satan came to God with a wager in mind, that Satan could take a God-fearing man and through subjecting him to incredible hardships, turn him away from God. Bottom line, Job lost everything, his money, home and family but kept his faith in God and did not turn away. Another example is Satan tempting Jesus the night before his crucifiction. That attempt ended with Jesus saying "get thee behind me Satan, get thee away!" I know that these examples are from the Bible and not corroborating evidence but do you really think that all of the evil in the world doesn't have a source?
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:06:29 PM EDT
I don't understand why you started this thread. If you don't believe that the stuff the bible says about Jesus really happened then fine. But if you do believe Jesus and his words to be Truth then you must accept the fact that satan and his hordes of demons exist, because Jesus acknowledged them. There really isn't anything more to say.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:06:30 PM EDT
Nope. I have no belief in a God or an antithesis, in this case, Satan. I was at one time a very strong Christian. I got better. [:D] But being serious, back on topic, and non-offensive, my beliefs are neo-pagan in nature with a strong dose of rational skepticism. YMMV. the_reject
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:07:56 PM EDT
It's like this Steyr: Remember those people you wrote about recently, they guys who screwed you over and how life when to crap for them?? Yet life goes okay for you and you have (basically) been a good person.....Remember that?? Well if there is good in the world then there must be evil. The reason is simple, it's the laws of Mother Nature that we all must live by: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Belief in God(good) (which I know you don't beleive in...yet) requires the belief in the Devil(evil). It's is really that simple. That is why it is called a sin when we do something against God's wishes. If a person continues on a sinful road he eventually is consumed by the Devil himself. Now I know you [i]think[/i] that you don't beleive in God. But on several occasions you have clearly stated that you know the differance between "right and wrong". How do you know this differance?? Is it not your conscience that is guiding you? Of course it is!! And a man's conscience is the way God communicates with mankind!! Prayer and meditation(not medication) are ways mankind improves this communication route. So even though you don't know it,SteyrAug, you already are following God's direction in your life weather you want to admit it or not IMHO. When mankind fails to listen to his conscience is when he usually falls towards the Devil. But, that's just my opinion [0:)] [0:)] [0:)] Sgtar15
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:12:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By grimshaw: A Satanist believes in the Devil. Christians have heard OF the Devil. Some are former Satanists.
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Actually Satanist do NOT believe in the Devil, or God.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:14:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thebrain: The devil made you write that crap. Get a hold of your mind Jesus can help.
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Nope, "I" wrote it. "I" am responsible for ALL of my deeds, both Good and Bad. I've nenver had a "Animal House" experience with angels and devils fighting for control of my actions. I think my own thoughts, unlike "others."
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:14:41 PM EDT
No, don't believe in the devil and I don't believe in god either. Nor do I see how this evenly balanced yin/yang stuff and the battle between equal forces of good and evil in any way supports such a belief. I mean, how can the devil be evenly matched when his opponent is the omnipotent, supreme being? The fight has been fixed and god-fearing, true believers are not only assured of the outcome, they have reserved their ringside seats.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:18:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wiggy762: IIRC, God did not create Satan per se.
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Well, he created the one we know as satan as a high angel. He later rebelled.
God and Satan have been arguing about which of them is greater.
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Umm, God doesn't argue. God and Satan are not equals or anywhere close to it. Satan was an angel like Michael or Gabriel so he was certainly never in a position to compare himself to God. He is not the "same thing as God only evil" as so many seem to think. He can't even create, making him no greater in power than any of the archangels.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:18:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR-10: Yes. I would have to think that there are more than four guys here that believe in the Bible and everything in it.
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I know you're kinda new, but even you had to know it was a joke directed to the 4 Faithful.
Originally Posted By AR-10: If I'm totally wrong by believing in the Word then I won't know it when I die. If you're wrong, you'll know it.
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Once again, Pascals Wager. But I choose not to live a life of delusion. I choose to live this life, rahter than deny myself in order to get preferential treatment in the "next" life. A LOT of people live very sad apthetic lives, "Hello MIDDLE EAST I'm looking at you guys", in order to satisfy some gobbilygook to get into paradise/heaven. On this one I'm pretty much with most of the Jews I know. This is it, live THIS life.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:19:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2002 4:23:05 PM EDT by Ghettoblaster]
NO. Satan (capital S) is a pure invention of the church to scare converts into believing. satan (small s) used to be a generic "synonym" for enemy. The idea of absolute evil and absolute goodness is ridiculous. If God was perfect,evil would not exist. Unless the gnostics were right and that "the Creator" was an evil demi-urge. I do not believe in the existence of "god", but if I did I would be inclined to think the gnostics (or certain sects of them ) wre on the right track. If an all powerful god allows evil to exist, what does that say about him?
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:22:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wiggy762: According to modern mathematics, nuclear physics and older philosophy, there can be no good without there also being evil. No yin then no yang, no positive without a negative, no yes without a no. If you start with the statement that there is a God, then you must aknowledge that the negative image of God must exist.
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Yes, but the problem is Satan is not the ANTI-GOD. Satan is not a co creator. Satan was a creation "of" God who was cast out. So being as how their is no ANTI-GOD, which coexisted WITH God, long before God created Satan (keeping in mind Satan was once good - the angel of light- and was later cast down to Earth, a much lesser place then heaven and hardly the anti heaven, according to YOUR mathematical statement God must NOT exist as he has not evil/anti compliment.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:22:31 PM EDT
The Devil must exist, otherwise why would I be bad from time to time [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:22:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By thebrain: The devil made you write that crap. Get a hold of your mind Jesus can help.
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Nope, "I" wrote it. "I" am responsible for ALL of my deeds, both Good and Bad. I've nenver had a "Animal House" experience with angels and devils fighting for control of my actions. I think my own thoughts, unlike "others."
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Look at what I posted earlier, in it I was talking of us humans having a choice in wether we follow God or Satan. To be able to have that choice means that we all have free will. Free will is essential to this contest God and the Devil are having where we are the prize. We all have to be able to make up our own minds and follow one or the other. I personally think that God stacked the deck against Himself by allowing the people who do not make a choice to be 'counted' by the Devil. To be 'counted' by God means that you had to have made a choice and actively change your life to follow Jesus. The rock group RUSH said it best with the following; "Those who choose not to decide still have made a choice". To be saved you must seek out and accept Jesus as your personal savior. Anything else is a 'win' for Satan.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:25:50 PM EDT
2-4 year old sons. Teenage daughters. Eh. I rest my case.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:26:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2002 4:26:56 PM EDT by wiggy762]
Originally Posted By zonan:
Originally Posted By wiggy762: IIRC, God did not create Satan per se.
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Well, he created the one we know as satan as a high angel. He later rebelled.
God and Satan have been arguing about which of them is greater.
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Umm, God doesn't argue. God and Satan are not equals or anywhere close to it. Satan was an angel like Michael or Gabriel so he was certainly never in a position to compare himself to God. He is not the "same thing as God only evil" as so many seem to think. He can't even create, making him no greater in power than any of the archangels.
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Please see my post in context, my father used this analogy to explain the battle for our souls. I apologize if I oversimplified. I in no way believe that God and Satan are equals, but they are the combatants for our souls.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:28:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By AR-10: Yes. I would have to think that there are more than four guys here that believe in the Bible and everything in it.
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I know you're kinda new, but even you had to know it was a joke directed to the 4 Faithful.
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Who, exactly, are the 4 Faithful?
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:31:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By zonan: I don't understand why you started this thread. If you don't believe that the stuff the bible says about Jesus really happened then fine. But if you do believe Jesus and his words to be Truth then you must accept the fact that satan and his hordes of demons exist, because Jesus acknowledged them. There really isn't anything more to say.
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I can ACTUALLY answer this. I like to talk about shit. That is why I come here. I do the same thing with my friends. I think about shit, then I talk about it with other people whose opinions I respect to some degree or another, and I think about what was said. Then I think of something else. Usually somebody will find it annoying.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 5:23:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: Now I know you [i]think[/i] that you don't beleive in God. But on several occasions you have clearly stated that you know the differance between "right and wrong". How do you know this differance?? Is it not your conscience that is guiding you? Of course it is!! And a man's conscience is the way God communicates with mankind!! Prayer and meditation(not medication) are ways mankind improves this communication route. So even though you don't know it,SteyrAug, you already are following God's direction in your life weather you want to admit it or not IMHO. But, that's just my opinion [0:)] [0:)] [0:)] Sgtar15
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Thank God for auto pilot.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 5:24:05 PM EDT
SteyrAUG, I knew you were making light of the Four Faithful. It's just the way you worded the first paragragh, and then started the second paragraph "But for the rest of you...". Made it sound a little like you think most Christians don't believe [b]all[/b] of the bible. Actually, that would be a correct assumption, now that I think about it. I happen to believe all of it. Which means I have certain ideas about the eventual destination of people who hear the truth and reject it. I am generally of an overly polite nature, so I don't rub people's noses in what I feel may be their fate regarding this subject. That in itself makes me a less than ideal example of the Christian model. I gave up trying to be a perfect Christian long ago. I thank God every day for what I have and try to do right for my family and friends. The bottom line is none of us will know the truth 100% for sure till we pass on. Or are Raptured. If I'm wrong, I guess I won't be cognizent of the fact. If you're wrong, you will find out. What fate will be your's in that case? I don't know. Maybe you will stand before God and weep and he will dry your tears. The Bible says otherwise. Don't know what He will have to say to me, either. I am secure in my salvation, but what the heck do I know? I'm only human. This particular subject is kind of tough to debate without some getting personal or insistant to the point of offense. Those that believe in a real and physical Hell don't really want to see anyone admitted. Best to you.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 5:29:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wiggy762: Who, exactly, are the 4 Faithful?
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Four very prolific posters and well known experts on this subject who seem to have wisely side stepped this thread and are probably laughing their asses off. BTW, the term "4 Faithful" was not intended or meant to be condecending/disrespectful.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 5:30:34 PM EDT
I think I met him on [url]www.full-auto.com[/url] I mean he had the horns and everything.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 5:33:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR-10: Don't know what He will have to say to me, either. I am secure in my salvation, but what the heck do I know? I'm only human. This particular subject is kind of tough to debate without some getting personal or insistant to the point of offense. Those that believe in a real and physical Hell don't really want to see anyone admitted. Best to you.
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Well here is how I feel. If we "go" someplace, and I don't have what it takes to get in, at least I'll know everyone where I'm going. And I'll be in good company. And at least Carla Faye Tucker won't be there.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 5:48:32 PM EDT
[b]Well here is how I feel. If we "go" someplace, and I don't have what it takes to get in, at least I'll know everyone where I'm going. And I'll be in good company. And at least Carla Faye Tucker won't be there.[/b] My brother-in-law says the same thing, except for the Carla Fay Tucker part. I roll my eyes, but I don't laugh. Actually, I have spent a lot of time thinking about the flip side of that sentiment. My pastor's view of Heaven is not the place I want to spend eternity. Kind of an odd thought. The other thing I find rather puzzling is this. As much as any believer should look forward to coming into God's presence and commencing with the better life to be, no one in their right mind is in any hurry to die. Life is a quandry.
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