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Posted: 4/12/2002 12:13:32 PM EDT
....where the crew finds a planet at war with another planet? The two warring factions have decided to make war more acceptable. Instead of destroying one anothers cities people just report to death chambers. That way they have the casualties without the destruction. Of course Kirk doesn't like this. He said if you are going to have war then you need to feel all the pain. Maybe then you will come to some agreement to put an end to the war. Suppose Israel had to endure ALL the cost of the pain of repressing the Palestinians? You know they one of the highest standards of living in the world? They can enjoy this high standard of living because we send them so much money. What if they had to pay the full cost? What if they had to give up their cell phones, cars, malls and restaurant meals in order to buy tanks, F-16s and ammo? Do you think they would be less willings to put the Palestinians in "re-settlement" camps? Do you think they would be more willing to let them have their own country? Why shouldn't we be as smart as Captian Kirk? Why should be finance the Israel people when they have such a high standard of living and it is not in our national interest? I would be interested in hearing your thoughts in this matter. After all, we haven't had a good Israel discussion in about six nanoseconds.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 12:46:07 PM EDT
Netanyahu offered them 97% of what they wanted, knowing that it would piss off most Israelis. Arafat walked away. Screw 'em. They had the chance and crapped on it. Wake up to the fact that this is not a problem with the Israelis, it's a problem with the Palestinians. These troublemakers have been kicked out of every other Arab middle-eastern country they've ever been in. Remember "Black September"? Arafat remains in power through strife, not peace. Could that be why every "cease fire" has been broken by the Palestinians?
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:43:01 PM EDT
Fatman nailed it. And it only took a few sentnces to do it.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 3:50:39 PM EDT
FatMan didn't even address it, much less nail it. Why should Israel be on the U.S. welfare rolls?
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:08:10 PM EDT
So you are saying that "evil" Israel sits back and inflicts loss on the poor poor down-trodden Palistinians while they sit back in comfort? What F'ing cave have you been living in. Three Words: MASS SUICIDE BOMBINGS. Does that ring a bell in any way? Fatman adressed it pretty dam well. Isreal is on U.S. welfare roles so they can take care of the POS palistinians for us. Typical palistinian answer "Fatman didnt even adress it" Then what the hell is the point other than the typical answer to every question that: "they are killing our babies". Mr. Arafat , how was your lunch? "they are killing our babies". Mr. Arafat, do you want peace? "They are killing our babies." Mr. Arafat, are you a fat disease ridden hunch back that smells like crap? "They are killing our babies"
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:36:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed: Why should Israel be on the U.S. welfare rolls?
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Because they are the chosen people and their well being should always take priority over the U.S.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:42:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FatMan: Netanyahu offered them 97% of what they wanted, knowing that it would piss off most Israelis. Arafat walked away. Screw 'em. They had the chance and crapped on it.
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You know, I keep hearing this number bandied about, and I'd LOVE for someone to give me the origin of it. "97%" of what they wanted? Exactly what does the 97% constitute, and what constitutes the 3% left out? Who caluclated it? How? Beyond that, I do have do agree: WHY exactly should the Israelis be on the US welfare roles to the tune of $2,000,000,000 a year?
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 5:54:21 PM EDT
Where is EricTheHun? Did he miss this thread? BTW, why not say "Why is the US picking on the poor defenseless Al-Queera? They didn't do anything but protect themselves from us?" How does the shoe fit that foot? What we underwent on 9/11 is just one (admittedly extreme) episode of what the Israelis have undergone pretty steadily FOR DECADES... Scott
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 6:12:05 PM EDT
It was Barak not Netanyahu, and if you call that 97% of what "THEY" wanted, you are deluded. Did you decide this 97% or did you poll the Palestinians? Gimme a break.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 6:24:43 PM EDT
Actually Barak gave Yasser EVERYTHING he had asked for but refused it because the palestinian goal is to eliminate Isreal. Rush Limbaugh has made this point countless times.....this war has been going on for 35 some years now and the only constant is Arafat get out the militant war lord and then you may have peace.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 7:49:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER: Actually Barak gave Yasser EVERYTHING he had asked for but refused it because the palestinian goal is to eliminate Isreal. Rush Limbaugh has made this point countless times.....this war has been going on for 35 some years now and the only constant is Arafat get out the militant war lord and then you may have peace.
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Forgive me if I don't see Rush Limbaugh as the most credible, unbiased news source around. Why don't you actually provide a CITE to something, rather than spouting some vague comment about Israel giving the palestinians "everything" they wanted. Hey Hun, I'm sure you can provide some insight on this, for those of us who don't happen to agree with your politics, re: Israel. What exactly is the "97%" deal we hear about so much, and where did the number come from?
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 7:54:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Flash66: Suppose Israel had to endure ALL the cost of the pain of repressing the Palestinians?
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Like the dozens, even HUNDREDS killed and wounded daily by suicide bombers? My big problem with suicide bombers is they are too slow taking themselves out of the gene pool. They should all get together and have a practice session together, where they all pull the cord at once... Scott
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 8:10:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed: Why should Israel be on the U.S. welfare rolls?
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What? And compete with all those big U.S. corporations? How do they do it? [:P]
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 8:15:25 PM EDT
We help the Isralies stay powered up so that we will have a powerful allie (sp?) in a very volital region in which we have a huge national interest. $2B is a lot of money. But it may well have been cheaper that keeping our own military in the region at a sufficiently high level for the past 50 years. Besides, I would rather use the Israli military to fight battles than our miliatry.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 8:20:27 PM EDT
The number I heard was that they were offered 95% of the land that the Izzy's captured during the ass-whoopings they gave the cammel jockies in the 60s and 70s. The Izzy's are fighting a fight they cant win in opinion polls. If they give Yasser all they want yasser will turn it down for some made up reason but if they dont offer they are called murderers, infidels, etc, etc. The goal of the Arabs is the complete destruction of the Izzies plain and simple. The only way they can plaese the arabs is if they nuked themselves. BrenLover
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 8:31:39 PM EDT
Due to population growth of the Palestinians, if this continues, Israel will be overwhelmed and slaughtered in 30 years, no matter how much we help.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 8:39:05 PM EDT
I don't why anyone bothers , they been fighting each other for THOUSANDS of years . And its not just the jews and palestinians . And remember this no one has ever negotiated a peace without totally destroying their opponents ability to wage war against them . Just remember Hitler just before WW2 and the settlement he negotiated with Britain's PM Chambelain ? Or us vs. Japan ?
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 8:48:04 PM EDT
Let's see Israel has been the "home" of Jewish people for at least 2000 years. The Palestineans had the region for a decade or so during the Middle Ages, in between some of the Crusades. Israel was "formed" with land from the British Empire, and Israel was formed. NO ARAB COUNTRY recognized Israel as a counrty until after 3 wars, and the US brokered am Arab-Israeli peace. 30+ years of saying Israel had NO RIGHT to exsist. The Arab countries said the the area belongs to the Palestinians, but doesn't say that those same Arab countries kicked the Palestinians out of their countries....... The recent peace settlement between Israel and the PA, which was a compromise neither side got exactly what they wanted, required Israel to give up some territory, and the PA to form a government, and denounce terrorism. Seems to me I keep hearing about an Intfada (sp) that is a religouis term for killing apparently. More recently Palestinians have been blowing themselves, and everyone standing near them, at such military targests as malls, coffee place, diners, and bus stops. Flash66 I think Israel could very cheaply, in money terms kill every non-Israel in the area. Of course all those Arab countries so concerned about the Palestinians could give up some territory for a Palestinian country. Why don't they do that, every other counrty in the region is much large than Israel. Why don't we give Montana, Idaho, Neveda, and Arizona to Natrive Americans. Israel wants to be a country, and no one in the area can stop them. Apparently Palestinians want to kill Israeli's. I have no sympathy for killers. When I hear about organized Israeli's, terror bombing Palestinians, or the government of Israel supporting terrorism against Palestinians or other Arabs I will change my mind. Until then I think the "I don't like them, so I had to kill them" defense that Palestinians use is about a reasonable as the Taliban/Al-queda attack on America. Throught my entire LIFETIME, I have listend as one Mid-East group after another calls America the "great satan" and declares "jihad" on us, and Israel. Well Israel doesn't have a 5,000 mile buffer zone that the US does, and has called them at their word.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 9:41:55 PM EDT
I heard on the news today that L.A. has the 2nd largest population of jews in the world. How many times you people said that you wish Kalifornia slides off into the ocean or that if the state gets nuked it would be no big loss? You all are nothing but anti-semites that are spouting this "pro-israel" talk as a facade to cover what you really are.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 9:58:14 PM EDT
Imbro - LMFAO!!!
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 10:08:14 PM EDT
Yeah, I remember that Star Trek. It was just another instance of Kirk violating the Prime Directive. Why did Star Fleet never charge him for that??? -kill-9
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 10:25:31 PM EDT
kill-9, I believe "The Nit-Picker's Guide for Classic Star Trekkers" came up with 37 GLARING Prime Directive violations by Kirk... Scott
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 10:36:57 PM EDT
Thanks DScott. Between the two of us maybe we can get this thread back on topic. -kill-9
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 10:38:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: I heard on the news today that L.A. has the 2nd largest population of jews in the world. How many times you people said that you wish Kalifornia slides off into the ocean or that if the state gets nuked it would be no big loss? You all are nothing but anti-semites that are spouting this "pro-israel" talk as a facade to cover what you really are.
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As Spock would say "that is highly illogical", not to mention a ridiculous comment.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 11:10:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Flash66: You know they one of the highest standards of living in the world?
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WTF?? Data please. You better go wash your hands. Your fingers must stink from digging around and pulling little wads of sh!t like this out of your ass.
Link Posted: 4/13/2002 12:20:24 AM EDT
Sometimes the gene pool needs extra chlorine. Unfortunately, these boys are taking people with them... Scott
Link Posted: 4/13/2002 6:55:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Flash66: You know they one of the highest standards of living in the world?
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WTF?? Data please. You better go wash your hands. Your fingers must stink from digging around and pulling little wads of sh!t like this out of your ass.
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From the CIA website:
Economy - overview: Israel has a technologically advanced market economy with substantial government participation. It depends on imports of crude oil, grains, raw materials, and military equipment. Despite limited natural resources, Israel has intensively developed its agricultural and industrial sectors over the past 20 years. Israel is largely self-sufficient in food production except for grains. Cuts diamonds, high-technology equipment, and agricultural products (fruits and vegetables) are the leading exports. Israel usually posts sizable current account deficits, which are covered by large transfer payments from abroad and by foreign loans. Roughly half of the government's external debt is owed to the US, which is its major source of economic and military aid. The influx of Jewish immigrants from the former USSR topped 750,000 during the period 1989-99, bringing the population of Israel from the former Soviet Union to 1 million, one-sixth of the total population, and adding scientific and professional expertise of substantial value for the economy's future. The influx, coupled with the opening of new markets at the end of the Cold War, energized Israel's economy, which grew rapidly in the early 1990s. But growth began moderating in 1996 when the government imposed tighter fiscal and monetary policies and the immigration bonus petered out. Growth was a strong 5.9% in 2000. But the outbreak of Palestinian unrest in late September and the collapse of the BARAK Government - coupled with a cooling off in the high-technology and tourist sectors - undercut the boom and foreshadows a slowdown to 2%-3% in 2001. GDP: purchasing power parity - $110.2 billion (2000 est) GDP - real growth rate: 5.9% (2000 est.) GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $18,900 (2000 est
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Israel has the 15th largest average GDP in the world. Pretty substantial...
Link Posted: 4/13/2002 7:03:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed: Why should Israel be on the U.S. welfare rolls?
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So why should Egypt get a couple billion a year? At least the Israelis don't dance in the streets when Americans are killed. Israel is the only REMOTELY democratic country in the Middle East, they provide a listening post for intelligence, they provide emergency bases and facilities, they do JUST about everything we ask (except sacrifice their own safety to our stupidity). You seem to believe that only Israel is sucking from the US money tit. At least with Israel we get SOMETHING for our money.
Link Posted: 4/13/2002 7:14:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tinker: So why should Egypt get a couple billion a year? At least the Israelis don't dance in the streets when Americans are killed. Israel is the only REMOTELY democratic country in the Middle East, they provide a listening post for intelligence, they provide emergency bases and facilities, they do JUST about everything we ask (except sacrifice their own safety to our stupidity). You seem to believe that only Israel is sucking from the US money tit. At least with Israel we get SOMETHING for our money.
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I don't recall ANYONE in this thread claiming Israel was the only one on the US Welfare roles. Frankly we need to get Egypt and everyone else off the US government teat, too. Humanitarian aid is okay. Buying someone an army isn't--especially when it's a situation as muddled as the Palestine/Israel one. And what exactly is that "SOMETHING" we get for our money from Israel?
Link Posted: 4/13/2002 7:19:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Mortech: I don't why anyone bothers , they been fighting each other for THOUSANDS of years . And its not just the jews and palestinians . And remember this no one has ever negotiated a peace without totally destroying their opponents ability to wage war against them . Just remember Hitler just before WW2 and the settlement he negotiated with Britain's PM Chambelain ? Or us vs. Japan ?
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Oh, and don't forget Korea, we totally destroyed THEIR ability to fight, didn't we? North Korea is such a collection of fools THEY think they have the 4th largest army in the WORLD. Go figure. And Britain bombed Argentina back to the Stone Age in the Falklands deal, huh? And Viet Nam completely destroyed the USAs ability to fight, right? That's why we went home with our tails between our legs like whipped curs? You win if destroy EITHER the ability to resist OR the WILL TO RESIST. As for fighting for thousands of years, lets examine that concept a bit. Since we've been fighting murderers, thieves, and rapists for thousands of years, and the crime continues, would your advice be to just give up? Your mother, sister or wife gets raped and strangled in an alley with her own pantyhose; hey, no big deal, it's been happening for thousands of years? People died from smallpox, polio and the plague for thousands of years, too, but we seem to have won that battle, at least to MY satisfaction, if not yours.
Link Posted: 4/13/2002 8:13:05 AM EDT
Kill-9 and DScott Thanks for trying to get this discussion "back on topic" but it is not about Star Trek. It is about your tax money being used to support a venture that is not in the best interest of the United States of America. I hear four basic arguments for supporting Israel: 1. They are a democracy - Bullshit. If that was the criteria we would only support about a half a dozen governments in the whole world. 2. The Arabs are bad guys so we should hate them and help the Israelis - Yes, but our war is with the assholes who attacked us on 9/11 and not the people being oppressed in Israel. There is a reason we sent our troops to Afghanistan and not Israel after the attack. 3. There is some Biblical reason that's says if we don't support the government of Israel then all of us Christian will go to Hell when we die. - Again Bullshit. Faith and the Grace of God is the ticket to everlasting life, not some political belief. 4. The poor Israelis are a gallant besieged people fighting against the evil empire. - Tell this bullshit reason to a Palestinian man willing to give up his life for freedom for his people. By the way, this young man was raised in a "re-settlement" camp listening to high tech airplanes and tanks go by everyday and doing what ever his "Israelis masters' tell him to do. I don't have anything against the country of Israel other than they kill our brave sailors whenever it suits them and they use their influence in the US to get lots of my hard earned tax money. Make them pay their own way. And the next time they sink one of our ships lets bomb the hell out of them instead of hushing it up.
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