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Posted: 9/1/2010 11:40:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:41:54 AM EDT

Maintenance costs.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:42:51 AM EDT
You must have missed the new episode of top gear then.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:44:05 AM EDT
Nobody wants them...
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:44:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:
Nobody wants them...


Right there.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:45:20 AM EDT
I think this is it. the 928 while an amazing car try finding parts for it. WOW the 911 series still has some parts available and it is the flagship of the Porsche brand. the 944 turbo while a great and fun car never was the "brand" of porsche.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:45:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eracer:

Maintenance costs.


x10000000000000

Really, they're fantastic cars, but very few shops are capable of working on them, and parts can be CRAZY expensive. Until very recently their were not many aftermarket maintenance part options, and those that exist today are somewhat unproven.

I've owned more than a few (11 928s, and 36 924/931/944/951/968) and I work on a huge number of them.

The rule here is this:

"Just because you can afford to buy it, doesn't mean you can afford to keep it."

Case in point: a timing belt tensioner for a 928 S4/GT/GTS is currently about $1100. At this age, rebuilding them becomes less and less feasible.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:46:00 AM EDT
Because they're old?

And expensive to maintain to boot.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:46:04 AM EDT
Because the first time something breaks you will be confronted with throwing 3 to 4 times the purchase price into the car.

I've heard that 911s (real 911s ) are the best way to get into Porsches, both in terms of value and satisfaction.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:46:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2010 11:49:02 AM EDT by Lon_Moer]

Originally Posted By eracer:

Maintenance costs.


Cheap to buy, not cheap to own. And Porsche mechanics don't want to work on some old car, they want to work on the newer cars.


This same scenario applies to the Ferrari 308/328/Mondial series.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:49:21 AM EDT
More fun than a barrel of monkeys:

Spec-944
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:49:34 AM EDT
Because a 914 is more Porsche than a 928/944/924

Please don't get into 911/912s. There are enough of us...
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:49:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2010 11:50:11 AM EDT by seven-six-two]
Maintenancecosts. Not considered true Porsches by aficionados. Not actually that fast.

A 944S2 with the 250HP engine did 0-60 in about 6.4 seconds.

Some like the shape (I always liked it because as a kid my first Saturday Job was for a guy who owned a beautiful white 944S2)
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:50:05 AM EDT
Every time Porsche launches a new line of cars, they launch a new line of custom tools necessary to work on said car. Porsche is the Dom Perignon of the auto industry. It's very expensive and has a classy name, but the reality is it is a severely overpriced ride that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:50:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BigFatDog:
Because a 914 is more Porsche than a 928/944/924

Please don't get into 911/912s. There are enough of us...


Lol.
Not.

The 914, which was actually SOLD as a VW...

Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:51:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:
Nobody wants them...


I want a 928!
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:52:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DV8:
Every time Porsche launches a new line of cars, they launch a new line of custom tools necessary to work on said car. Porsche is the Dom Perignon of the auto industry. It's very expensive and has a classy name, but the reality is it is a severely overpriced ride that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.


And... no.
Every car, from every manufacturer, has bespoke tools.
Porsche is no better, or worse, than any other I've worked on.

And the cars are actually pretty good, for the most part.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:53:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MillerSHO:
You must have missed the new episode of top gear then.

I just clicked in to post that!!!
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:53:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DV8:
Every time Porsche launches a new line of cars, they launch a new line of custom tools necessary to work on said car. Porsche is the Dom Perignon of the auto industry. It's very expensive and has a classy name, but the reality is it is a severely overpriced ride that leaves a bad taste in your mouth.


I wish I had the money to form my own opinion.


I'm a Porsche fan who must content himself with admiring them from afar. I can afford to buy one, but I can't afford to buy a new belt pulley or alternator.

Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:53:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRegulator:
Originally Posted By Silence:
Nobody wants them...


I want a 928!


If you really do, shoot me an IM.
I always have customers looking to sell.

Right now there are a 1984 928S (Euro), a pair of 1987 S4s, and a really nice 1989 S4 - that I've worked on for years that I know of for sale.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:53:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By eracer:

Maintenance costs.


x10000000000000

I think you once surmised that to own a Ferrari, one should budget $1 per mile driven for maintenance. What do you think it would be for, say, a mid-'80s 911 vs. 944? Inquiring minds what to know!!!
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 11:57:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By eracer:

Maintenance costs.


x10000000000000

I think you once surmised that to own a Ferrari, one should budget $1 per mile driven for maintenance. What do you think it would be for, say, a mid-'80s 911 vs. 944? Inquiring minds what to know!!!


I had an 89 944S2 that I put 100k on requiring nothing more than routine maintenance. By and large they're fairly reliable cars if, and this is the killer, they've been well-maintained. Most haven't. For an early 8v, I'd budget 50 cents a mile, cost ratcheting up with performance.
We tell most of the 928 and 944 crowd to budget $3-5k a year for maintenance, on any type of reasonable mileage (3000-12000 a year).
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:01:32 PM EDT
I would love to have a high performance turbo boxer motor in a great handling car that was not a beach to maintain.
I guess I'll get a Subaru...
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:04:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:

I had an 89 944S2 that I put 100k on requiring nothing more than routine maintenance. By and large they're fairly reliable cars if, and this is the killer, they've been well-maintained. Most haven't. For an early 8v, I'd budget 50 cents a mile, cost ratcheting up with performance.
We tell most of the 928 and 944 crowd to budget $3-5k a year for maintenance, on any type of reasonable mileage (3000-12000 a year).
Yep. Therein lies the rub. The few that I've semi-seriously looked at have been clapped out. They have records of the first couple of owners keeping up with the maintenance, but after about 30,000 miles or so, the paper trail dries up, and unholy things start happening under the hood.


Thanks!

Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:10:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By BigFatDog:
Because a 914 is more Porsche than a 928/944/924

Please don't get into 911/912s. There are enough of us...


Lol.
Not.

The 914, which was actually SOLD designed to be co-marketed as a VW and a Porsche...



Sadly there is very little Porsche in every model there after. Pay no attention to me, I'm one of those

Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:20:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2010 12:21:07 PM EDT by Toiyabe66]
Originally Posted By BigFatDog:
Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By BigFatDog:
Because a 914 is more Porsche than a 928/944/924

Please don't get into 911/912s. There are enough of us...


Lol.
Not.

The 914, which was actually SOLD designed to be co-marketed as a VW and a Porsche...



Sadly there is very little Porsche in every model there after. Pay no attention to me, I'm one of those



You can parse it anyway you want -you're wrong.
The 914 was sold as a Volkswagen-Porsche in every market except NA.

I'll play the game, as I have many times before.
How many parts does a 928 share with any non-Porsche automobile? Any year, engine, anything.
How many parts does a 928 share with any other Porsche model?
How many parts does the 914 share with any non-Porsche automobile?

But pay no attention to me, I'm just a factory-trained and certified Porsche technician who owns a successful Porsche independent shop.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:25:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2010 12:30:57 PM EDT by Admiral_Crunch]


<Clarkson>Is that the one with the van engine?</Clarkson>
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:28:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By BigFatDog:
Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By BigFatDog:
Because a 914 is more Porsche than a 928/944/924

Please don't get into 911/912s. There are enough of us...


Lol.
Not.

The 914, which was actually SOLD designed to be co-marketed as a VW and a Porsche...



Sadly there is very little Porsche in every model there after. Pay no attention to me, I'm one of those



You can parse it anyway you want -you're wrong.
The 914 was sold as a Volkswagen-Porsche in every market except NA.

I'll play the game, as I have many times before.
How many parts does a 928 share with any non-Porsche automobile? Any year, engine, anything.
How many parts does a 928 share with any other Porsche model?
How many parts does the 914 share with any non-Porsche automobile?

But pay no attention to me, I'm just a factory-trained and certified Porsche technician who owns a successful Porsche independent shop.

I sure won't argue the 914 thing with you. God knows I tore enough of them apart, seeing lots of VW stamped components.

914 was as much VW as Porsche. Just like the 924 is just as much Audi as Porsche.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:28:59 PM EDT
they are Volkswagens.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:29:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:

But pay no attention to me, I'm just a factory-trained and certified Porsche technician who owns a successful Porsche independent shop.


Yeah, what the hell do you know?

Next you're going to try and school us on Rallying or something. Sheesh.



















Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:30:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2010 12:34:40 PM EDT by trwoprod]
Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By eracer:

Maintenance costs.


x10000000000000

I think you once surmised that to own a Ferrari, one should budget $1 per mile driven for maintenance. What do you think it would be for, say, a mid-'80s 911 vs. 944? Inquiring minds what to know!!!


I had an 89 944S2 that I put 100k on requiring nothing more than routine maintenance. By and large they're fairly reliable cars if, and this is the killer, they've been well-maintained. Most haven't. For an early 8v, I'd budget 50 cents a mile, cost ratcheting up with performance.
We tell most of the 928 and 944 crowd to budget $3-5k a year for maintenance, on any type of reasonable mileage (3000-12000 a year).


That quote jibes exactly with what people I know with older 944 Turbos and the big 3 liter ones and 928s spend every year –– $3-5k, for about 12,000 to 15,000 miles a year.

ETA:

And it's worth it to them. My ex-fiance has a 928 that she absolutely loves. She just spent a lot of money (she won't say how much) on a slightly warmed-over engine rebuild, got every part reasonable coated by Swain, took my advice on a better oil filter setup, and now gets 3mpg more than before and you cannot tell the engine is running.

They are a lot like airplanes. You can keep a 1965 182 running perfectly for years, if you keep up with it, and most of the parts are a)still made, b)a lot better now than they used to be, and c)often have better replacements.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:33:26 PM EDT
Meh, I'm a sucker for the classic 911 shape.

I will own a 930 turbo one of these days....
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:35:15 PM EDT
This Thread could get funny soon...
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:35:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By eracer:

Maintenance costs.


x10000000000000

I think you once surmised that to own a Ferrari, one should budget $1 per mile driven for maintenance. What do you think it would be for, say, a mid-'80s 911 vs. 944? Inquiring minds what to know!!!


I had an 89 944S2 that I put 100k on requiring nothing more than routine maintenance. By and large they're fairly reliable cars if, and this is the killer, they've been well-maintained. Most haven't. For an early 8v, I'd budget 50 cents a mile, cost ratcheting up with performance.
We tell most of the 928 and 944 crowd to budget $3-5k a year for maintenance, on any type of reasonable mileage (3000-12000 a year).


That seems a little high, but then again - I sold my 88 951s about 4 years ago - and it always depends on how well maintained the vehicle was from the start.

Always get a pre-purchase inspection and insist on seeing the maintenance records.

And btw - where's your shop? I used to go to one in NOVA.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:42:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trwoprod:
Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By DzlBenz:

Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By eracer:

Maintenance costs.


x10000000000000

I think you once surmised that to own a Ferrari, one should budget $1 per mile driven for maintenance. What do you think it would be for, say, a mid-'80s 911 vs. 944? Inquiring minds what to know!!!


I had an 89 944S2 that I put 100k on requiring nothing more than routine maintenance. By and large they're fairly reliable cars if, and this is the killer, they've been well-maintained. Most haven't. For an early 8v, I'd budget 50 cents a mile, cost ratcheting up with performance.
We tell most of the 928 and 944 crowd to budget $3-5k a year for maintenance, on any type of reasonable mileage (3000-12000 a year).


That quote jibes exactly with what people I know with older 944 Turbos and the big 3 liter ones and 928s spend every year –– $3-5k, for about 12,000 to 15,000 miles a year.

ETA:

And it's worth it to them. My ex-fiance has a 928 that she absolutely loves. She just spent a lot of money (she won't say how much) on a slightly warmed-over engine rebuild, got every part reasonable coated by Swain, took my advice on a better oil filter setup, and now gets 3mpg more than before and you cannot tell the engine is running.

They are a lot like airplanes. You can keep a 1965 182 running perfectly for years, if you keep up with it, and most of the parts are a)still made, b)a lot better now than they used to be, and c)often have better replacements.


The late 928s (GT and S4) may be the last true "cost is no object" engineering exercise car made.
Porsche made them to be the best GT car ever made, and by gum, they were.
And you'll pay for the privilege.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 12:44:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2010 12:44:47 PM EDT by Beltfed]
Because at this point they're old (not collectibles) and have high maintenance costs as said.

Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:00:17 PM EDT
I had a 944 turbo. Handled great, but was slow. Very disappointing.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:04:24 PM EDT
I owned a 944. Loved it
Replaced it with a 968 Cabriolet that I still own
I've spent exacly $5000 on the 968 since 1994 for repairs and maintenance
Not a bad running average
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:04:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 13MIKE:
I had a 944 turbo. Handled great, but was slow. Very disappointing.

Porsche just like RX-7/8's are more about handling than straight line acceleration.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:09:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 3-gun:
I would love to have a high performance turbo boxer motor in a great handling car that was not a beach to maintain.
I guess I'll get a Subaru...


I'd love a Scirocco Rally car...that could be really fun.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:09:45 PM EDT
Because they are made by VW......or thats what I heard.....wasn't the Datsun the same design?
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:11:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kncook:
Because they are made by VW......or thats what I heard.....wasn't the Datsun the same design?

944's and 928's were not made by VW.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:15:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence:
Nobody wants them...


WRONG!

A good friend has a '77 924, Martini edition.

Placeholder for pic.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:29:39 PM EDT
The 944/968 is one on of the best handling production cars ever made.

I'll grant, they don't win the stoplight to stoplight wars, but with a driver who knows how to carry momentum, they are a deadly track warrior.

As a current and previous owner, I do most of my own repair and maintenance because I enjoy it. I also typically find them relatively easy to work on. There is always the exception to the rule, but generally its true. Probably the only job I would sub out on my present 993 is internal engine/transmission work and wheel alignments.

They are very ruggedly built vehicles. Their driveline, suspension, and braking componente are really second to none. The problems, at least in my experience are usually in the support systems such as electrics, cabriolet tops, climate control etc. If you don't believe me, plop an older ('97/98 or previous) 911 on a lift next to a Corvette and take a good look around both cars.

You can also mitigate some parts costs by cross-referencing oem part numbers. Many, many parts are interchangeable with Mercedes, BMW, Audi, VW, etc. Find the corresponding part number and you no longer have to pay for the little grey Porsche box from the dealer. Oh yeah, if you are buying parts from the dealer you are probably doing it wrong (Sunset Porsche in Oregon excepted.)

My '97 993 turns heads, still hauls a reasonable amount of ass, and by the way, I can fit all three of my kids in it. Try that with any other sports car.

There is no substitute.






BTW, Toiyabe's "What's in the Shop Today" thread in the Team forum is worth the admission price.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:29:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By kncook:
Because they are made by VW......or thats what I heard.....wasn't the Datsun the same design?

944's and 928's were not made by VW.


Oh, that's not true, they're totally VW.

Like this, they put these in the Golf... (I know, I know - but those don't count).


And don't forget these, just like the Eurovan:
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:32:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Toiyabe66:
Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By kncook:
Because they are made by VW......or thats what I heard.....wasn't the Datsun the same design?

944's and 928's were not made by VW.


Oh, that's not true, they're totally VW.

Like this, they put these in the Golf... (I know, I know - but those don't count).
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb195/toiyabe66/DSCN2106.jpg

And don't forget these, just like the Eurovan:
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb195/toiyabe66/Shop%2011/DSCN5022.jpg


Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:35:32 PM EDT
man do I love the 928 but the costs are too much for me.

I have heard you can swap out the 928 32v engine for a new GM LS series V8 which is lighter and more powerful. I am no purist so I have no problem with this.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:38:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RhinelandArms:
man do I love the 928 but the costs are too much for me.

I have heard you can swap out the 928 32v engine for a new GM LS series V8 which is lighter and more powerful. I am no purist so I have no problem with this.

With very minimal body mods, you can stuff a small block into a 914. In fact, the only body mod is cutting a hole in the front trunk for the radiator. Everything else is bolt in.

How would you like a mid engined, 1800 pound car putting out 400 horsepower?
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:39:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By VacaDuck:

Originally Posted By RhinelandArms:
man do I love the 928 but the costs are too much for me.

I have heard you can swap out the 928 32v engine for a new GM LS series V8 which is lighter and more powerful. I am no purist so I have no problem with this.

With very minimal body mods, you can stuff a small block into a 914. In fact, the only body mod is cutting a hole in the front trunk for the radiator. Everything else is bolt in.

How would you like a mid engined, 1800 pound car putting out 400 horsepower?


I remember when I subscribed to VW & Porsche they did a cover story on the "Renegade Porsches" IIRC.
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:39:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TheRegulator:
Originally Posted By Silence:
Nobody wants them...


I want a 928!


make mine a GTS someday :) have had a US S model, and 2 GTs with no crazy maintenance horror stories other than a tie rod replacement due to idiot shippers. oh wait. I did snap an axle at the drag strip otherwise a great road car, powerful, solid, safe. get a good one
Link Posted: 9/1/2010 1:39:57 PM EDT
Because the engine is in the wrong end. A Porsche engine goes in the back, dammit.
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