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Posted: 4/11/2002 8:40:37 AM EDT
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,50054,00.html I couldn't believe this story. I love the defense attorney comparing orange reflectors to swastikas, very classy. I have been born and raised in PA, and I love the state. Unfortunately, there is a large population of Amish in my area. What pisses me off the most is that these people pay no taxes because of their strict religious beliefs. The thing is, I have seen many, many times these guys riding to Aldi's in a station wagon or 15 passenger van. The metal lined wheels of the buggies they use beat the hell out of the roads around my area as well. My point is, they use religion as a shield to avoid obeying whatever laws they don't want to abide by. They don't pay any taxes at all, yet they use the roads which were paid for solely with tax payer money. If I knew they would move away just for losing a court case, I would've tried to figure out how to file a suit against them when I was a little kid.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 8:46:12 AM EDT
[url]www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,50054,00.html[/url]
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 8:48:03 AM EDT
Thanks Jarhead_22, I'm not used to pasting active links.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 8:57:46 AM EDT
No problem. I exist to serve.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 8:59:35 AM EDT
I believe you're wrong about them not paying income taxes. The only way anyone can get out of paying taxes is to be a "not for profit" group. AFAIK, individuals don't qualify for that particular listing.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 9:04:42 AM EDT
I should have explained my point more clearly. AFAIK, the commonwealth of PA determined that they do not have to pay state income taxes. I have heard that this is because of tourism. Actually, I can't believe that anyone would find the Amish so "quaint" as to come to PA just to see them.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 9:09:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: No problem. I exist to serve.
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Before you start mowing my lawn, could you get me a beer please? [:D]
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 9:10:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 9:14:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kpel308: biggun1: I grew up in an Amish area in southwestern Michigan. I've personally had Amish neighbors come and help us clear up and repair our house after some tornado damage, and they brought food over when my grandmother was dying of cancer. I've never had an Amishman lie to me or attempt to cheat or steal from me. I don't agree with their particular flavor of religion, but respect their right to practice it, as I do yours of your religion, if any. You have the right to your opinion, and I respect [i]that[/i] right. I'll just have to politely disagree with you this time around.
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same as where i grew up (probably the same place) they were some of the greatest people i ever knew, let's remember that this is AMERICA. they have been doing their thing for 100's of years, WE have changed.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 9:16:10 AM EDT
kpel308, fair enough. I've never witnessed or heard of any of the Amish in my area helping anyone out of the goodness of their heart, except themselves. I don't want everyone thinking I'm prejudiced, I am simply venting my frustration about the news story I read. In my experience, in my own community, the most obvious contribution of the local Amish is underbidding construction jobs to win contract bids over legitimate, tax-paying construction firms.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 9:49:04 AM EDT
I read this too. The problem here is that they are using their religion as a basis to avoid abiding by the laws passed by our society. The fact of the matter is you have to abide by the laws of the land or face the consequences. If they don't like having to put the triangle on their buggies in PA, maybe they shouldn't have left Ohio, or maybe they shouldn't travel on public roads. We can get ticketed if we refuse to wear a seatbelt or if we don't have a car inspection. The law requireing the triangle is designed to safeguard the public as well as the Amish themselves from accidents. If we go letting every little cult or sect of a religeon ignore the law because the claim it violates their religeon, then pretty soon people will be picking and choosing which laws they follow. BTW - biggun1, I'm sure you remember the Amish guys who were busted for selling cocaine. I think it was around Philadelphia, not sure though.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 9:55:50 AM EDT
The law requireing the triangle is designed to safeguard the public as well as the Amish---let us start from there and examine these circumstances. The Amish have always said that you can pass any laws you want and we won't follow them. We will be morale and stay out of your government, but you do not have the right to tell us how we can live. They have taken themselves out of the social contract willingly and have made it stick in most cases......now think about this....where would we be as gun owners if we had followed a line like this for the past hundred years.....I wish the NRA was run by the Amish......
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 9:56:19 AM EDT
Isn't there an Amish_Bill around here?
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 10:12:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2002 10:17:11 AM EDT by shaggy]
WTF is your problem? Or did you just not read the entire article? This particular sect of the Amish doesn't want to display the orange safety lights, and they say they won't abide by the law. They're also being prosecuted for not doing so, but they're still entitled to present a defense...even if it doesn't hold much water. Nothing in that article indicates they'll get away with anything more than you would if you refused to abide by a neutrally written and generally applicable law on the basis of religion (the same basic Constitutional test for any activity that is objected to on the basis of religion). It should also be noted that apparently is only one particular very conservative sect, and not the opinion or practice of most Amish. If you don't like the fact that the state gives them a break on state taxes, complain to your legislators; they are the ones who put the exemption in place. The Amish are a very small minority in terms of voting strength. Certainly not enough to get that exemption without a lot of preexisting sympathy in the legislature. Personally, I admire them. Like Hound points out, at least they have the conviction to stand up for their beliefs and face the consequences for not compromising.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 10:36:58 AM EDT
The Amish men, who face $100 fines or community service, have said they'll refuse to perform the community service because they'd likely be driven to work sites in motor vehicles, or have to use tools powered by electricity or gasoline. Levi Zook, 52, who acted as the group's spokesman, said they'll leave the state if they lose the case.
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Won't they have a bench warrant out for them if they're convicted and flee the state? Unlawful flight to avoid community service. Unless of course, the sentence is banishment from PA.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 10:57:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2002 10:57:50 AM EDT by 10112002]
in regards to your original post, try this one on for size. "gun owning dipshits. I have been born and raised in IN, and I love the state. Unfortunately, there is a large population of gun owners in my area. What pisses me off the most is that these people refuse to turn in their guns because of their strict Constitutional beliefs. The thing is, I have seen many, many times these guys joking about using guns for bad purposes. The guns they shoot at the range near where i just built my new house disturbs me and my family. My point is, they use the Constitution and 2nd amendment as a shield to avoid obeying whatever laws they don't want to abide by. They don't follow these new gun laws at all, yet everybody know these laws were enacted to increase safety and decrease crime." sorry, but i don't feel sorry for you. those amish were there long before the roads were. i'd venture to say that the amish probably built a lot of those roads. the fact that the state wants to come in and improve them is really irrelevant.
Originally Posted By biggun1: kpel308, fair enough. I've never witnessed or heard of any of the Amish in my area helping anyone out of the goodness of their heart, except themselves. I don't want everyone thinking I'm prejudiced, I am simply venting my frustration about the news story I read. In my experience, in my own community, the most obvious contribution of the local Amish is underbidding construction jobs to win contract bids over legitimate, tax-paying construction firms.
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yeah, and the general population rarely hears of instances in which firearms owners thwart crime or off the bad guy, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen to the tune of 2+ million times a year (according to one estimate). IMO, you do sound prejudice. you're attacking these people based on their religious beliefs and merely because they don't do things your way. i see no problem with the Amish under-bidding. this is the U.S. after all, where capitalism, free markets, and laissez-faire (sp?) reign supreme (sort of tongue in cheek there). that's business. fwiw, i thought that the Amish were exempt from paying federal income tax. but that class was about 6 years ago. i could have it completely wrong.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 11:04:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kpel308: I don't agree with their particular flavor of religion, but respect their right to practice it.
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Me too, unless it acts as a tax exemption.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 11:27:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2002 11:29:19 AM EDT by Kar98]
Originally Posted By biggun1: My point is, they use religion as a shield to avoid obeying whatever laws they don't want to abide by.
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You tryin to say they stand up for their 1st amendment rights? Well, hell.... [url]http://amishrakefight.org/gfy/[/url] Gimme a hundred Amish any ole day, rather than one "chosen one"
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 11:34:00 AM EDT
Had a meeting several years ago out in the Eastern Ohio Amish country. Lunch one day was at Amish homes who serve meals as a source of income. They put on one hell of a spread and it was great eating. The tour guide was a gal who had originally been Amish but didn't feel that was the life for her. She filled us in about the traditions and the one that has always stood out has been the Amish way of helping others. With things the way they are now, I won't say this is still done due to the increased costs, but they were never questioned about credit at service providers such as doctors, dentists, and hospitals. They didn't have much if any medical insurance. If the family or local community couldn't handle the bill, the word got passed in ever increasing circles to cover the expense. All the way to the corners of the nation if need be. This was confirmed by some of the local professionals who said they wished all clients were so dependable about paying. I too would like an arrangement like that. Seems like they had signs and or tail/stoplights on their buggies. Seems those I've seen in other places have at least some rear marking arrangement. If nothing else, it's not really fair to someone unfortunate enough to hit and kill the buggy riders. Trying to feature how the buggies tear up the roads vs. other vehicles?? Lay a strip of steel?? Same with the horses and shoes??? Equestrian Michael Jordans??
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 11:38:40 AM EDT
"Do the Amish pay taxes?" "Self-employed Amish do not pay Social Security tax. Those employed by non-Amish employers do pay Social Security tax. The Amish do pay real estate, state and federal income taxes, county taxes, sales tax, etc. The Amish do not collect Social Security benefits, nor would they collect unemployment or welfare funds. Self sufficiency is the Amish community's answer to government aid programs. Section 310 of the Medicare section of the Social Security act has a sub-section that permits individuals to apply for exemption from the self-employment tax if he is a member of a religious body that is conscientiously opposed to social security benefits but that makes reasonable provision of taking care of their own elderly or dependent members. The Amish have a long history of taking care of their own members. They do not have retirement communities or nursing homes; in most cases, each family takes care of their own, and the Amish community gives assistance as needed." From [url]http://www.800padutch.com/atafaq.shtml#tax[/url]
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 11:45:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2002 12:05:47 PM EDT by gravitynoodle]
I don't agree w/ the Amish in this particular legal proceeding, but the world would be a better place if more people exercised the same kind of hard work and discipline they espouse. They don't squeeze out illegitimate kids by the dozen, they don't collect welfare while sitting around watching Sally Jessie, and, as a general rule, they pull their own weight in society. And they are already prepared for when the SHTF, so it wouldnt hurt to buddy-up to them. I have spoken. Gather ye near and give thanks. [:D]
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 11:58:51 AM EDT
10112002, Let me say this, I don't give a flying shit about their personal religious beliefs. I DO care about the fact that if they want to drive their buggies on state highways they damn well better accept the concept of "evil" reflectors or the "Devil's" electrically-powered driving lights. Some of you guys completely missed the point.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:25:05 PM EDT
It's hard to figure up an income tax when you [size=4]BARTER FOR EVERYTHING![/size=4]
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:30:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2002 12:30:55 PM EDT by biggun1]
Torf, thanks for the sarcasm. Since you're the big encyclopedia of knowledge on the subject, explain to the uninformed how the Amish barter for food AT ALDI'S. Just curious. Thanks.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:36:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By biggun1: 10112002, Let me say this, I don't give a flying shit about their personal religious beliefs. I DO care about the fact that if they want to drive their buggies on state highways they damn well better accept the concept of "evil" reflectors or the "Devil's" electrically-powered driving lights. Some of you guys completely missed the point.
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and yet obviously you do because you couldn't help but mention it, could ya? had to make a big deal out of hiding behind it. i got your point, or what you were trying to say. you're jealous about being required to pay taxes and these people don't. that's the bottom line, isn't it? and since when did the government have a right to pass laws that protect us from ourselves? yeah, it'd be nice if they all displayed the reflector. why can't the law require that motorists drive no more than 25 mph? why is it the amish that have to be regulated?
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:40:03 PM EDT
biggun1 explain to the uninformed how the Amish barter for food AT ALDI'S
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Most of the Amish that I know grow their own food. Why don't you research something before you make yourself look like an ass? Ass!
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:47:17 PM EDT
10112002, Don't try to analyze me and read things into what I posted. The FACT that Amish will use their religion as a shield when it suits them is key to the newspaper article subject matter. Me being envious of the tax issue? How you managed to logically derive that from any of my statements is beyond me. I did not post this story so that I could enter into a pissing contest with people who feel differently than I do. I was merely posting an important story regarding a safety issue to us and our families. After all, IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN'S SAFETY![PEEP]
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:52:45 PM EDT
The Amish underbidding on construction contracts, I did not know that the Amish owned construction companies, maybe there is more then one sect of Amish. The Amish don’t believe in anything modern, so how do they manage to perform the work without Heavy Equipment and using power tools and still get the work done on schedule. Even building a highway would take a long time doing all the work with manual tools like shovels. By the way I respect the Amish and they have the right to live as they chose as long as it doesn't cause any harm to anyone else.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:57:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2002 1:01:51 PM EDT by ron97ws6]
Never gave to much thought about the Amish or the Mennonites. They live in their enclaves at the sufferance of the citizens of the United States. That is to say they benefit from the protections and benefits of our democracy without practicing the franchise of citizenship or spending any effort or blood in the defense of our country. If this doesn't strike home to you, remember that there were practically no Mennonites left in their European homeland after Hitler's Nazis swept into power. That is to say, these self-absorbed types did nothing to protect themselves or endear themselves as citizens to their countrymen, and when the time came - no-one bothered to save them either! They can spurn our wicked, evil society all they want, but they only get to do so because we made if safe for them - - for 100's of years, and with the blood of tens of thousands of service men and women!!
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 1:07:25 PM EDT
The thing is, I have seen many, many times these guys riding to Aldi's in a station wagon or 15 passenger van.
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You are probably mistaking Mennonites for Amish. They often dress similarly and come from the same religious and cultural root, but Mennonites are allowed to use modern transportation and tools. That said, there are groups of Amish who seem to strain the definitions a touch. FOr instance, one so-called Amish woodworker does not use electricity, but still uses modern woodworking tools by converting them to hydraulic motors. These are driven by large deisel powered engines in another room. This is a silly distinction. They guy does not truly practice that discipline of his religion. BTW, I think they should use the reflectors, it's simple courtesy to make yourself visible. No organization exists as a homogenous unit. There are many different Amish communities out there with different approaches to their faith and culture. There are also Amish living seperately from the larger Amish communities who may have had to make some unusual compromises to survive. There are also boneheads among the Amish, just like their are boneheads among the Catholics, Baptists, Congregationalists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists and even gun owners. Boneheads have a painful tendancy to stand out.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 1:37:31 PM EDT
I grew up next door to an amish farm and as a result some of my best friends are amish. I know many of the amish in this area and I know for a fact that they pay all the same taxes that we pay except for SS. They pay property taxes and taxes for public schools even though they don't send their children to them. I know there are a lot of different sects of amish but the ones around here ride in cars and use telephones but they will not own them. I think it is silly, even hipocritical, but thats the way they choose to live. They are very much dependent on the rest of us *regular folk* and many of the local business owners benifit from having them around. A majority of them have sawmills and that gives work to many logging companies and log trucking companies. There are many taxi drivers around here who get a full weeks work from them by taking them to and from work. This group of amish here also use the orange reflectors on the backs of the buggies.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 1:45:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ron97ws6: They can spurn our wicked, evil society all they want, but they only get to do so because we made if safe for them - - for 100's of years, and with the blood of tens of thousands of service men and women!!
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Yes, tens of thousands of service men and women died in part to protect the American way of life, [i]including the Constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion under the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses[/i]. All the Amish are doing is exercising their Constitutional rights.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 1:57:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ron97ws6: Never gave to much thought about the Amish or the Mennonites. They live in their enclaves at the sufferance of the citizens of the United States. That is to say they benefit from the protections and benefits of our democracy without practicing the franchise of citizenship or spending any effort or blood in the defense of our country. If this doesn't strike home to you, remember that there were practically no Mennonites left in their European homeland after Hitler's Nazis swept into power. That is to say, these self-absorbed types did nothing to protect themselves or endear themselves as citizens to their countrymen, and when the time came - no-one bothered to save them either! They can spurn our wicked, evil society all they want, but they only get to do so because we made if safe for them - - for 100's of years, and with the blood of tens of thousands of service men and women!!
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My cousin, a Mennonite, served as a medic with the VII Corps in Saudi Arabia and Iraq during Desert Storm. I'm sure he's not the only Mennonite/Amish man to serve that way.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:33:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2002 2:35:02 PM EDT by biggun1]
Please people, I know the difference between Mennonites and Amish. These are Amish I see at Aldi's every time I drive by the store. I am not saying that all Amish are bad because there is a certain non-friendly group in my area. I get along quite well with some of the Amish in my area. One group here is very fundamentalist and takes things too far. The article I posted a link to is another example of a group taking their religious beliefs and trying to extend that into the realm of man's law so that it suits them. There is a fundamental difference between moral (God's) law and man's law. I never said or implied that any of the Amish I have dealt with are immoral people. I haven't witnessed them breaking any moral laws, but certain enclaves will claim man's law does not apply to them because they follow God's law. Everyone who has been throwing the Constitution at me today, PLEASE READ THE ABOVE STATEMENT. As long as humans aren't being sacrificed, I feel an individual has the right to practice whatever religion they choose. I believe in our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Remember "Separation of Church and State"? If one chooses to live in our land, they are guaranteed the freedom to practice any religion they so choose, they are also held accountable when they disobey the Countries (man's) laws.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:36:04 PM EDT
It is their faith, Biggun. The state wants to tell them to put some crap on their wagons that violates their basic religious beliefs. If the state told us in our church to stop giving wine to 16 year olds at Holy Communion we would blow a freaking gasket and tell them to pound sand.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:55:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By biggun1: I believe in our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Remember "Separation of Church and State"? If one chooses to live in our land, they are guaranteed the freedom to practice any religion they so choose, they are also held accountable when they disobey the Countries (man's) laws.
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Exactly. And all this one particular sect is doing is disobeying a law based upon their religious belief [i]and they are suffering the legal consequences for it[/i]. Its not as if the authorities are just turning their heads to this sect's violation of the law. They are being held accountable. They still however, have the right to a trial and to present a defense - namely that the law is violative of the free exercise clause. Its not a very good defense considering the facts presented, but they still have the right to try it. That said, I still fail to see the point of this. Are you upset because this particual sect is breaking the law? People break the law everyday...and they are prosecuted for it. Is it because they break the law in the name of their God? People break the law in the name of God, money, and love everyday...and they are prosecuted for it. Is it because you think they may get away with it? If they do (highly unlikely), its only because of the Constitutional guarantee of free exercise.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 3:19:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 3:30:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 3:42:32 PM EDT
A long time ago I drove through Amish land. I noticed some real nice farms and mentioned it to the local that was riding with me. He said they were Amish farms and that for the most part they had the best looking farms.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 7:46:37 PM EDT
One big plus for the Amish: They don't proselytize. [;)]
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 9:19:54 PM EDT
Yes, this is good. We need more hate in the world. Let's fuel it. After we get rid of the Amish, maybe we can make a start on the wops and micks. So they want to hang lanterns on their buggies instead of orange triangles. I think I would tend to notice a couple of swinging lanterns easier than a couple of orange triangles in darkness. And in daylight, I'm going to notice a horse and buggy as a slow moving vehicle long before I see any orange triangles. But maybe I'm the exception. I'm sure that all laws, including the orange triangle law, are rooted in common sense. I'm sure it will save some children's lives. Yes, orange triangles. Do it for the children, it's only common sense.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 11:54:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GovtThug: After we get rid of the Amish, maybe we can make a start on the wops and micks.
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That puts a new slant on things.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 7:53:35 PM EDT
I just have to throw my two cents into this. Especially since someone copied my name. Who cares if they won't put the triangles onto their buggies. Put pressure on your reps to get the laws written where the Amish/Mennonites take all responsibility for accidents where they are rear ended. Once one or two of them are hit when unmarked they will change their minds. It would really hit home when a few of them get killed and they then lose those nice farms in the later lawsuit for being a obstacle on the roads.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 10:55:10 PM EDT
They can spurn our wicked, evil society all they want, but they only get to do so because we made if safe for them - - for 100's of years, and with the blood of tens of thousands of service men and women!!
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In all fairness, not very many Americans enlisted, fought and died to "preserve the Amish way". Our soldiers gave their lives in order to maintain the kind of society they were accustomed to living in — Generally, one far removed from Amish life. The fact that the Amish happen to live on the same chunk of land that we occasionally fight for is immaterial, and certainly no cause for resentment. Our wars are simply not their fights, any more than a war between two Indian tribes is our fight. Finally, it's conceivable that some of this nation's wars [i]would not have occurred[/i] if the majority of American citizens were Amish. More than once has America has gone to war over the resources required to build and fuel this "modern" world — resources that wouldn't be needed in an Amish world.
Link Posted: 4/13/2002 11:56:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SeaDweller:
The Amish men, who face $100 fines or community service, have said they'll refuse to perform the community service because they'd likely be driven to work sites in motor vehicles, or have to use tools powered by electricity or gasoline. Levi Zook, 52, who acted as the group's spokesman, said they'll leave the state if they lose the case.
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Won't they have a bench warrant out for them if they're convicted and flee the state? Unlawful flight to avoid community service. Unless of course, the sentence is banishment from PA.
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The charge is either civil, petty or misdemeanor, so they would have a warrant extraditable only in PA, or within a certain distance to the court of jurisdiction. Oh, and the court will suspend their driving privledges in PA, and then they will not be able to get a driver's license in the state they go to: That driver's license thing is really going to hurt. Jay [img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/iroc-cop.gif[/img]
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