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Posted: 4/10/2002 7:44:32 AM EDT
Ok. We've hashed this Israeli/ Palestinian thing to death! Please everyone just weigh in with your opinion on what you think will happen so we can all move along. I personally think the whole thing will deteriorate into WWIII but that's just the optimist in me. It's time for predictions and odds now. We've moved past debate. Pile on! PS anyone want to add a poll?
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 7:50:58 AM EDT
Just before it seems like WW3 is inevitable, some "great world leader" will show up and make "peace". Then just watch what happens.
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 7:52:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 7:55:08 AM EDT
What do you say we debate Israel/Lebanon instead? [:D] Here's a link to an interesting column by Charles Krauthammer (who has an almost Hunnish devotion to Israel [;)]): [url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23409-2002Apr10.html[/url] "Hezbollah has killed Israeli soldiers situated in Israeli territory. It kidnapped three soldiers who have never been seen since. Just one month ago, infiltrators from the Hezbollah territory shot and killed seven Israelis on a road in northern Israel. And now, since the end of March, Hezbollah has embarked on a serious and deadly escalation, firing rockets into Israel. ... Not only, therefore, is Lebanon the most dangerous piece of tinder in the region. It is the most instructive. The Arabs claim that their grievance is Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Give it back and you'll have land for peace. Like the Lebanon peace?"
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 7:55:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eswanson: You mean like Jessie Jackson?
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[:D]
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 7:56:10 AM EDT
this is a wound that will fester forever. An example would be two conjoined (Siamese) twins. They have this wound that won’t heal because they keep picking at the scab!!! A doctor must step in and separate them completely or they will eventually kill themselves. My advice is to draw Israel's boundaries in landmines. Install a minefield 2 miles wide and put up signs. Then kick every Palestinian out of Israel and NEVER let them back in!!!
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 8:01:01 AM EDT
I think good old Benny will seize power and with his ever so quick right index finger be the first world "leader" to launch fully active nukes therefore turning this world into something more like an old rotten apple core. Yep. But I may be wrong.
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 8:06:45 AM EDT
Politics in the United States will continue to prevent doing what is best for the United States and our very few true allies - Canada, Great Britain, etc. The policies of the present are likely to be the policies of tomorrow. We will continue to support the policies of Israel to the detriment of the United States.
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 8:10:35 AM EDT
Those who fail to learn from history are bound to repeat it. Do you think Israel will make that "mistake" twice?
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 8:53:22 AM EDT
Imagine this. Texans experience car, bus, mall bombings by Mexican radicals seeking to re-unite their ancestral homeland taken by the Americans. Border patrol agents have been attacked, killed and kidnapped. Shoppers are afraid to go the mall or to gather in large groups. Random gangs of hispanic youths have been known to drive into parks, churches, schoolyards and open fire on any non-hispanics. What would be the appropriate US response? Should we ask ISRAEL for permission to defend itself? TheRedGoat
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 8:56:02 AM EDT
This fighting has nothing to do with Jew vs. Arab and everything to do with Western Civilization and Modernism vs. despotic tyrants who want to protect their own fiefdoms by keeping their people living in the Middle Ages. The whole bit about the recent attacks on Israel had nothing to do with helping the Palestininans and everything to do with derailing the US offensive against Iraq. The PLO was bought and paid for by Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia, to provoke a Israeli reaction that would give the other Arab states a excuse to oppose the US attack on Iraq. They fear the establishment of a pro-Western government in Iraq that would, amongst other threats, ship away all the oil it could to pay its international debt and thereby blow the legs out from under OPEC, perhaps forever. Under these circumstances a open war between the West and the Islamic world would be almost preferred to this backstabbing.
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 9:09:50 AM EDT
AGAIN the thread has deteriorated into a debate. Please just give me your feelings on how this will turn out. NO Debating allowed![:D]
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 9:17:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 9:21:25 AM EDT
I think we'll be seeing a nuke. Not by us, though. The world needs to see this at least once, now that we have some really good ones! Might put a chill on for a while.
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 9:27:21 AM EDT
I think Israel will continue to defend themselves, as they should. No one has any problem with the U.S. fighting ten thousand miles away to protect ourselves from terrorism. But some of those same people hate the idea of Israel defending themselves from terrorists in their own back yard. The analogy of Texas and Mexico is VERY appropriate to the discussion. IF Osama bin Laden was Miguel Benivito or some such, we would be carpet-bombing Mexico right now. It is SO hypocritical to deride Israel for doing the exact same thing we are doing right now. Scott
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 9:34:16 AM EDT
I will admit to being one of the main instigators fueling this debate. I just don't know when to quit sometimes. On the other hand, Eric the Hun seems to have hijacked this site and turned it into the "All Israel, ALL the Time " news channel. At any given point in time, you can prolly see two of his "Israel" threads on page 1 alone. (Never mind pages 2- ? )The site owners don't seem to mind, so I guess that's none of my business. But I'm sick of it too. My prediction? There is NO answer. They will fight FOREVER. Only foolish people will interfere / try to "help." They were fighting long before you were born. They'll be fighting long after your great-grandchildren are dead. Israel needs the perceived threat of the Palestinians to arm twist the US into sending some spending money. The Arab nations seem content waging low level war, unwilling to REALLY "get it on" but rather sending children to fight the war. Its the ultimate "Lorena Bobbitt marries Charles Manson" love story. Lastly, America will "broker" this war for the next 200 years. At least. Our political leaders seems to get some perverted thrill from doing that, either alternating funding from one side to the other, or even at the same time, as they are doing now.
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 10:14:38 AM EDT
Two things: 1.) It is we who support many of these despots directly: Mubarak, Musharaff, Abdullah in Saudi, the Turkish military which runs that country... 2.) The fighting in Lebanon is still going on b/c Israel didn't some parts of Syria back, so the Syrians & Iranians are using to Hezbollah to strike at Israel. My opinion? I think this crap will never end. While it prob. wont lead us into WW3, it prob will result in waste American $, wasted American lives, & wasted American effort. Effort we could put into our country or even parts of the world that need it much more than Israel, the West Bank, or Gaza...
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 10:20:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bearlaker: Just before it seems like WW3 is inevitable, some "great world leader" will show up and make "peace". Then just watch what happens.
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You mean like Jessie Jackson?
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No, like Alexander Stone(See The Omega Code and Megiddo movies to understand who he is) A Man Of Peace...at least at first. [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/sadness.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 10:32:41 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
On the other hand, Eric the Hun seems to have hijacked this site and turned it into the "All Israel, ALL the Time " news channel. At any given point in time, you can prolly see two of his "Israel" threads on page 1 alone. (Never mind pages 2- ? )The site owners don't seem to mind, so I guess that's none of my business.
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I am very certain that a lot of people mind how much I post on the subject of Israel. Just not a lot of folks whose opinions I really worry about. For the record, over the past nine months, through today, there have been 166 threads with 'Israel' or 'Israeli' in the subject line. [b]Out of those 166, I have been the author of 26 threads![/b] [u]A mere 26 threads[/u]! [u]Who[/u] would have thought just [b]15.7%[/b] of all Israel/Israeli threads were started by me? Well, garandman, if you gather together any ten large city newspapers today, you will note that the Middle East situation dominates the news. Shall we run a search of all headlines with the words 'Israel' or 'Israeli' in them, as well? It's called being topical! On point! [:D]
But I'm sick of it too.
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Well, as Paul told Timothy, 'Take a little wine for thy stomach's sake'! But seriously, I suggest that you only read my threads on Israel/Israeli topics and [u]forget[/u] about reading the rest of those [b]84.3%[/b] of [b]non-Hun[/b] threads! [:D] - continued -
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 10:34:52 AM EDT
Now, back to the topic at hand. I believe that an [u]awful[/u] lot of Bibical prophecy is going to take place in the Holy Land! As a matter of fact, there will be no area on the face of the earth that will be more important in the future than that little sliver of land called Israel! Let me direct your attention to just one such prophecy concerning Jerusalem: [b]Zechariah, Chapter 12:[/b] 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2 [b]Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem[/b]. 3 [b]And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone [u]for all people[/u]: [u]all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it[/u].[/b] 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 [b]And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.[/b] 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and [b]Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.[/b] 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 [b]In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.[/b] 9 [b]And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.[/b] 10 [b]And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and [u]they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn[/u].[/b] When have these events ever transpired before the present season? When was Judah and Jerusalem a 'burdensome stone' for [u]all[/u] people, not just its neighbors, but for the entire world? Brothers and Sisters, there is a day of reckoning that is approaching. It may not come in our lifetimes, nor in the lifetimes of our children, nor their children, but when it does come, I can tell you of a certainty where that day's events will be centered: [size=4][i]Jerusalem, The Holy City![/i][/size=4] [b][i]Sha'alu Shalom Yerushalayim[/i][/b] Eric The('PrayForThePeaceOfJerusalem!')Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 10:38:42 AM EDT
I am relatively new to the forum, however I find the topics on the forum are like shows on TV. I read/watch what I like and ignore the rest.
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 10:51:47 AM EDT
Not a prediction really but more of a hope. I'm playing with fire but I almost hope that the SHTF over there. That hezbollah attacks from Lebanon, and Israel responds in kind, maybe even going into Syria. Then Syria responds thus turning up the heat a little. After that, the whole region explodes. Once that happens, clear lines will have to be drawn. No more middling from the U.S. We will have to pick a side and go with it; we have too much at stake in the region in general. That's about the only way the situation will be resolved; a total victory. Otherwise, this thing festers in perpetuity, just like it has for the last 50+ years.
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 10:52:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 10:53:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: [b]Zechariah, Chapter 12:[/b] 10 [b]And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and [u]they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn[/u].[/b] [>]:)]
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Dude - yer SUCH a rookie!!!! Zechariah 12: 10 has [size=6]ALREADY[/size=6] been fulfilled. [i]John 19: these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.[/i] Zechariah 12, fulfilled in John 19, was a CONDEMNATION of Israel, as they DID look upon Him whom THEY had pierced. They looked on Him MOCKINGLY. REJECTING Him. Zechariah was indeed a prophecy - [size=6]OF THE CRUCIFIXION.[/size=6] [rolleyes] And you criticize me for being a couple DAYS off between Palm Sunday, and Good Friday. [}:D] Yer a couple [b]MILLENNIA[/b] off with your interpretation of Zechariah. Better see the eye doc about that 'mote' brother.... [;)]
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 11:20:26 AM EDT
Eric, 2 questions: 1.) Isn't that what they said about those prophecies in '48, '67, & '73? What makes this time any different in your opinion? 2.) When exactly was the "Zachariah thing" fulfilled? I can't count the times Israel has been "condemned" - again, what makes this time any different? Not trying to be sarcastic BTW. Again, I think this cycle of crap will continue b/c neither side understands they can't win...
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 11:24:29 AM EDT
Post from garandman -
Zechariah 12, fulfilled in John 19, was a CONDEMNATION of Israel, as they DID look upon Him whom THEY had pierced. They looked on Him MOCKINGLY. REJECTING Him. Zechariah was indeed a prophecy - OF THE CRUCIFIXION.
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Whoa, [b]garandman![/b] You are so far off, it's unbelievable! Yes, Zechariah was certainly talking about a time that Israel was a troublesome stone for all its neighbors, was a burden for ALL PEOPLE, and that occurred in 32-33 AD???? In 32-33 AD, Judah and Jerusalem was not much of a problem for anyone, not even the Romans! And neither Judah nor Jerusalem surely were a burden for ALL PEOPLE! As they are NOW! As a matter of fact note the fact that 'all who burden themselves with Judah and Jerusalem, will be cut to pieces'! When did this happen in 32-33 AD? And when did this occur in 32-33 AD: [b]And it shall come to pass [u]in that day[/u], that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.[/b] [u]When[/u] did the Lord come and destroy all nations that came against Jerusalem? In 32-33 AD? - Nope! In 66 - 70 AD? - Nope! In 132 AD? - Nope! In 1099 AD? - Nope! In 1187 AD? - Nope! [b]Then when?[/b] And if it didn't happen in 32-33 AD at the time of Christ's crucifixion, then whenever it occurs, the Crucifixion of Christ will have been an accomplished fact! Do they not teach Biblical Prophecy in your Biblicist Church?
And you criticize me for being a couple DAYS off between Palm Sunday, and Good Friday.
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For a [u]Christian[/u] to be off a 'couple' of days in the most important week in the History of the World? Yes, that's pretty rough, all right! But you are forgiven of God, do not let your heart be troubled![:D] I will be right back with some references for the Zechariah Chapter 12 prophecies. BTW, were you surprised at the number of non-Hun threads? Confidentially, me too![:D] Eric The([s]Prophetic[/s]Pathetic)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 11:37:17 AM EDT
[b]garandman[/b], here's the first one that jumps out at me ~ Matthew Henry (1662-1714) His warm mix of scholarship and practical application has made his commentary a favorite of preachers and devotional readers alike for more than two hundred years. From his [u]Commentaries on Zechariah[/u]: "The day here spoken of, is the day of Jerusalem's defence and deliverance, that glorious day when God will appear for the salvation of his people. In Christ's first coming he bruised the serpent's head, and broke all the powers of darkness that fought against God's kingdom among men. [b]In his second coming he will complete their destruction, when he shall put down all opposing rule, principality, and power; and death itself shall be swallowed up in that victory[/b]. The Holy Spirit is gracious and merciful, and is the Author of all grace or holiness. He, also, is the Spirit of supplications, and shows men their ignorance, want, guilt, misery, and danger. [b]At the time here foretold, the Jews will know who the crucified Jesus was; then they shall look by faith to him, and mourn with the deepest sorrow, not only in public, but in private, even each one separately. There is a holy mourning, the effect of the pouring out of the Spirit; a mourning for sin, which quickens faith in Christ, and qualifies for joy in God. This mourning is a fruit of the Spirit of grace, a proof of a work of grace in the soul, and of the Spirit of supplications. It is fulfilled in all who sorrow for sin after a godly sort; they look to Christ crucified, and mourn for him. Looking by faith upon the cross of Christ will cause us to mourn for sin after a godly sort."[/b] Wow that was wonderful! And just imagine, garandman, if you will, that this Commentary was written in [b]1701![/b] Now tell me, brother, just who would have guessed that the Jews would have ever been in charge of Judah and Jerusalem in 1701? Well, Matthew Henry for one. Incredible! Shall I go on, or do you need time to digest this part? Eric The(Scriptural)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 11:51:38 AM EDT
Post from jobux -
Eric, 2 questions:
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Shoot, brother! Figuratively speaking, of course!
1.) Isn't that what they said about those prophecies in '48, '67, & '73?
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Nope. At least not that I know of. For all I know some preacher might have been preaching that Armageddon was fulfilled at Gettysburg! In 1948, Israel did not have Jerusalem. It didn't conquer Jerusalem until the Six Day War in 1967. Then look at the combatants. The prophecy says that all nations shall come, meaning more than just the Arab Legions (1948 & 1956), and the Egyptians, Jordanians, and Syrians (1967 & 1973). Since Israel has captured Jerusalem, it will stay in Israeli hands forever! Why? The Lord Jesus Christ said that Jerusalem would be trodden down of the Gentiles until such time of the Gentiles was fulfilled. In other words, once the Jews had lost their capital city, it would be in non-Jewish hands, until the time that it being in non-Jewish hands was over. Apparently, [u]that[/u] occurred one bright sunny June afternoon in 1967! Hallelujah! When Israeli paratroopers routed the Jordanian Army from the Holy City and captured their ancient capital, once again!
What makes this time any different in your opinion?
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Well, because [u]now[/u] the Holy City is in the hands of the Jews! And 'Cause all the world is gathering itself together to go against little Israel!
2.) When exactly was the "Zachariah thing" fulfilled? I can't count the times Israel has been "condemned" - again, what makes this time any different?
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It has [u]yet[/u] to occur. When it does come to pass, don't be hollering 'Hey, Hun, look!' Cause Hun ain't going to be looking, he'll be bending his knees and confessing Jesus' name!
Not trying to be sarcastic BTW. Again, I think this cycle of crap will continue b/c neither side understands they can't win...
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Yes, it will continue until human history has been concluded. And who knows when that may be! Eric The(Believing)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 11:58:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Post from garandman -
Zechariah 12, fulfilled in John 19, was a CONDEMNATION of Israel, as they DID look upon Him whom THEY had pierced. They looked on Him MOCKINGLY. REJECTING Him. Zechariah was indeed a prophecy - OF THE CRUCIFIXION.
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Whoa, [b]garandman![/b] You are so far off, it's unbelievable! Yes, Zechariah was certainly talking about a time that Israel was a troublesome stone for all its neighbors, was a burden for ALL PEOPLE, and that occurred in 32-33 AD???? In 32-33 AD, Judah and Jerusalem was not much of a problem for anyone, not even the Romans! And neither Judah nor Jerusalem surely were a burden for ALL PEOPLE!
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John 19 PROVES beyond ANY doubt that Zech 12:10 was prophetic on Christ's crucifixion. NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER. NOW it is incumbent upon YOU to prove Zech 12: 1-11 is NOT referring to the Crucifixion. That's the way contextuality works. I have 3 historical proofs for you that the Zechariah text WAS prophetic of Christ's first coming and crucifixion, based on the "burdensome" reference. 1. The Roman occupation of Palestine. EVERY OTHER CIVILITION Rome conquered, they obliterated the social, military, economic, political and religious aspects of those they conquered. For whatever reason, NOT SO with Judaism. Israel maintained thier own currency, religious networks, socio-political power (the chief priests were priest politicians) Even a cursory examination of the Herods and Pontus Pilate will reveal a tedious "sheep herding" role of the subjugated Jews by the Roman prelates, to the point of annoyance. Burdensome. Pilate had to get the Jews approval to crucify Christ vs, Barabbas. Herod was basically forced into "shew(ing) the Jews a pleasure / favor" and selected executing Peter the Apostle for that purpose. The reality is the Chief Priests and Pharisees "played" their Roman captors. Burdensome for teh Romans. 2. The event Pentecost. At Pentecost, people of EVERY nation of the world made the dangerous, tedious journey to Jerusalem, often more than once a lifetime. They risked life and limb. Burdensome for the whole world. 3. The testimony of Martin Luther. This is the garandman paraphrase, but look up the volume "What Luther Says" (I forget the publisher and translator) Luther said (paraphrased) "Of all socities the Jewsih people have intermingled themselves, they have ben troublesome and meddlesome." Luther's testimony merely proves the "burdensome" nature of Jewish society on those around them - particularly the Romans as cited above. Again, the Zechariah text is FULFILLED, and holding it out as hope to Jewish peoples is fools gold. I respect Matthew Henry a great deal. I have his 6-volume set. But I suspect he did NOT have 100% accurate divine revelation any more than I do. And if he indicates other than what I have, then I guess you can assume I think he is wrong.
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 12:40:44 PM EDT
Post from garandman -
John 19 PROVES beyond ANY doubt that Zech 12:10 was prophetic on Christ's crucifixion. NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER.
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That's nice. It's not correct, but it's nice that you feel so strongly against a few folks that you are willing to turn clear and concise scripture on its head to avoid even the least nod in the direction of the Jews!
NOW it is incumbent upon YOU to prove Zech 12: 1-11 is NOT referring to the Crucifixion.
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Nope, because [u]no[/u] [u]one[/u] is being crucified in Zechariah Chapter 12. [b]No one.[/b] It is spoken of as an accomplished [u]fact[/u]!
That's the way contextuality works.
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In garandman's world! Not in the real world.
I have 3 historical proofs for you that the Zechariah text WAS prophetic of Christ's first coming and crucifixion, based on the "burdensome" reference.
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Oh boy, let's hear 'em!
1. The Roman occupation of Palestine. EVERY OTHER CIVILITION Rome conquered, they obliterated the social, military, economic, political and religious aspects of those they conquered.
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No, I do not agree at all. They mostly incorporated the aspects of the local peoples into a mixture of Roman and native systems, but go on, we can discuss this later.
For whatever reason, NOT SO with Judaism. Israel maintained thier own currency, religious networks, socio-political power (the chief priests were priest politicians) Even a cursory examination of the Herods and Pontus Pilate will reveal a tedious "sheep herding" role of the subjugated Jews by the Roman prelates, to the point of annoyance.
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Stop, stop right there. It is enough! You simply do not have any basis for what you've just said. The Romans minted their own coins for 'Palestine' and part of the profit that the High Priest and his coterie earned was from the exchange of Caesar's money for temple shekels in order for the coins to be used in the Temple. But Roman coins abounded, recall the time that the Jews gave Jesus a coin and asked if it was laeful to pay tribute to Rome? Well it had Caesar's face and name upon it - it was Roman! Political Judaism? Even the Chief Priest was selected by Rome - and they chose Idumeans, not Jews to be the Kings and the rulers in Palestine! They even interfered with customary Jewish inheritance laws. There was simply no aspect of Jewish life that they did not control. If the Jews even had a Temple, it was because of Roman good sense of not bothering such things unless they became troublesome - the more gods the better, because they could profit from the Temple as much as the Priestly classes could. When the Jews became more trouble than they were worth, Rome had a very good answer - utter and complete destruction! Where was God then? - continued -
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 12:41:27 PM EDT
Burdensome. Pilate had to get the Jews approval to crucify Christ vs, Barabbas.
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Bull***! Pilate needed nothing further to have Christ put to death. He had, however, just conducted a Roman trial and had declared the defendant to be innocent. Had he followed Roman laws, Jesus would have been set free. The Jews, however, took advantage of the friction that was going on in Rome between Tiberius at his residence in Capri, and Sejanus, his praetorian guard commander in Rome. Sejanus was busy rounding up Roman citizens for trials and executions based upon nothing do much as a claim they were 'not friends of the Emperor.' He was simply killing his own enemies under the rubric that they were the enemies of Tiberius. When the Jews exclaimed to Pilate 'thou art no friend of Caesar's they knew exactly the political dynamite they were uncapping: [b]John, Chapter 19:[/b] 12. And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. This accusation was all that was necessary for Pilate to reverse course and attempt one last stratagem to have the innocent man released - the old custom of releasing a prisoner at Passover. The High Priest and his cadre told the Jews present at the trial to ask for Barabas' release, and the rest, as they say, is history!
Herod was basically forced into "shew(ing) the Jews a pleasure / favor" and selected executing Peter the Apostle for that purpose. The reality is the Chief Priests and Pharisees "played" their Roman captors. Burdensome for teh Romans.
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Huh?
2. The event Pentecost. At Pentecost, people of EVERY nation of the world made the dangerous, tedious journey to Jerusalem, often more than once a lifetime. They risked life and limb. Burdensome for the whole world.
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Huh? That simply makes no sense, at all!
3. The testimony of Martin Luther. This is the garandman paraphrase, but look up the volume "What Luther Says" (I forget the publisher and translator) Luther said (paraphrased) "Of all socities the Jewsih people have intermingled themselves, they have ben troublesome and meddlesome." Luther's testimony merely proves the "burdensome" nature of Jewish society on those around them - particularly the Romans as cited above.
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Well, as much as I love to disagree with Luther about a lot of things, I won't now, because it's unnecessary! The verses are plain and simple.
Again, the Zechariah text is FULFILLED, and holding it out as hope to Jewish peoples is fools gold.
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Holding out hope to a lot of people is fool's gold, eh?
I respect Matthew Henry a great deal. I have his 6-volume set. But I suspect he did NOT have 100% accurate divine revelation any more than I do. And if he indicates other than what I have, then I guess you can assume I think he is wrong.
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What hubris! garandman think about what you are saying! You need to read Henry's Six Volume Set before you try to correct him! I suppose that having a gold embossed King James Bible may get you into Heaven, too! But I doubt it! Gee, arguing Scripture is fun! Can you now see why I've avoided it like the plague all those times you've asked me to engage in it? Eric The(Simple)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 2:03:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Gee, arguing Scripture is fun! Can you now see why I've avoided it like the plague all those times you've asked me to engage in it? Eric The(Simple)Hun[>]:)]
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Actually, yes I can see why, now. Cuz yer SOOOO bad at it!!!!![:D] Kinda like I'm so bad at swallowing the Israeli news feeds - hook, line and matzos. [}:D]
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 2:03:21 PM EDT
Forgive me Lord for the can of worms I have opened through this thread. I hope I have not insighted the scriptural war between ETH and Garandman. Just wanted a take on how you guys feel this will all turn out. sorry.....
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 2:09:57 PM EDT
Hun, all this shit really scares me. I've read much of the same lines and also remember some of Nostradamas. We can poopoo a lot of things, but this stuff is falling together too nicely to dismiss.
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Now, back to the topic at hand. I believe that an [u]awful[/u] lot of Bibical prophecy is going to take place in the Holy Land! As a matter of fact, there will be no area on the face of the earth that will be more important in the future than that little sliver of land called Israel! Let me direct your attention to just one such prophecy concerning Jerusalem: [b]Zechariah, Chapter 12:[/b] 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2 [b]Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem[/b]. 3 [b]And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone [u]for all people[/u]: [u]all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it[/u].[/b] 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 [b]And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.[/b] 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and [b]Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.[/b] 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 [b]In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.[/b] 9 [b]And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.[/b] 10 [b]And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and [u]they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn[/u].[/b] When have these events ever transpired before the present season? When was Judah and Jerusalem a 'burdensome stone' for [u]all[/u] people, not just its neighbors, but for the entire world? Brothers and Sisters, there is a day of reckoning that is approaching. It may not come in our lifetimes, nor in the lifetimes of our children, nor their children, but when it does come, I can tell you of a certainty where that day's events will be centered: [size=4][i]Jerusalem, The Holy City![/i][/size=4] [b][i]Sha'alu Shalom Yerushalayim[/i][/b] Eric The('PrayForThePeaceOfJerusalem!')Hun[>]:)]
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Link Posted: 4/10/2002 2:20:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Burdensome. Pilate had to get the Jews approval to crucify Christ vs, Barabbas.
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Bull***! Pilate needed nothing further to have Christ put to death. He had, however, just conducted a Roman trial and had declared the defendant to be innocent. Had he followed Roman laws, Jesus would have been set free. The Jews, however, took advantage of the friction that was going on in Rome between Tiberius at his residence in Capri, and Sejanus, his praetorian guard commander in Rome. Sejanus was busy rounding up Roman citizens for trials and executions based upon nothing do much as a claim they were 'not friends of the Emperor.' He was simply killing his own enemies under the rubric that they were the enemies of Tiberius. When the Jews exclaimed to Pilate 'thou art no friend of Caesar's they knew exactly the political dynamite they were uncapping: [b]John, Chapter 19:[/b] 12. And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. This accusation was all that was necessary for Pilate to reverse course and attempt one last stratagem to have the innocent man released - the old custom of releasing a prisoner at Passover. The High Priest and his cadre told the Jews present at the trial to ask for Barabas' release, and the rest, as they say, is history! [>]:)]
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Thank you for making my point. Pilate was essentially blackmailed, under threat of death, that he MUST crucify Christ, even tho he knew Christ to be innocent. And he MUSt release Barabbas, tho EVERYONE knew him to be guilty. In short, Pilate was scared to DEATH of the Jewish mob, and did their bidding. You asked earlier WHEN the jews had been "burdensome "to the Romans. I'd say you answered your own question - Pontius Pilate, it seems, found their blackmail QUITE burdensome. Wouldn't you say?? [:D]
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 2:56:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By muzlblast: AGAIN the thread has deteriorated into a debate. Please just give me your feelings on how this will turn out. NO Debating allowed![:D]
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I agree - have more respect for the individual that started this thread (he even said PLEASE for crying out loud). I honestly WISH for peace - but I don't see it happening. (Peace Sells, But Who's Buying?) Hmmm.... Possibly a big War - but NOT "WWIII". Tyler
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 3:00:58 PM EDT
Thanks TD!
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 3:54:20 PM EDT
Grand man ? Pretrib midtrib or posttrib?
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 4:02:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By muzlblast: Forgive me Lord for the can of worms I have opened through this thread. sorry.....
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My son, it will be necessary for the Lord to forgive you as the worms will not. (By the way, I can get you a genuine E.T. Hun 'special forgiveness' for only $19.95 payable by U.S. Postal money order. In advance !)
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 4:26:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/10/2002 4:57:49 PM EDT by DScott]
Originally Posted By muzlblast: Ok. We've hashed this Israeli/ Palestinian thing to death! ...
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And we brin you another episode of "Short Attention-Span Theater" ... It goes something like this: (Two men watching TV and talking) Man One: "Jesus H. Christ! Are they [b]still[/b] trying to kill each other?" Man Two: "Yeah, man, it's such a bummer!" Man One: "Damn! somebody ought to [b]do[/b] something!" Man Two: "Yeah! Totally!" (long pause) Man One: "What else is on?" Man Two: "Uh, I dunno. Is there a game on?" Man One: "Nope, blacked out. How about a 'Survivor' re-run?" Man Two: "Oh, OK. Wanna beer?" Man One: "Sounds good." (fade)
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 4:45:55 PM EDT
Anyone that wants the war to end is an anti-semite.
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 5:31:37 PM EDT
But when is JESUS coming back(and he is coming back),pretribulation,midtribulation or posttribulation?If its pretrib I probaly have enough guns n ammo.But postrib????
Link Posted: 4/10/2002 6:50:29 PM EDT
Post from garandman -
Thank you for making my point. Pilate was essentially blackmailed, under threat of death, that he MUST crucify Christ, even tho he knew Christ to be innocent. And he MUSt release Barabbas, tho EVERYONE knew him to be guilty.
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Hmmm, so the prophecy [u]should[/u] [u]not[/u] have been 'And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone [u]for all people[/u]', but should have been 'And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for [u]one person[/u]'? Meaning Pontius Pilate? 'All people' becomes 'one person'? Yeah, right.
In short, Pilate was scared to DEATH of the Jewish mob, and did their bidding.
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I seriously doubt that, at all.
You asked earlier WHEN the jews had been "burdensome "to the Romans.
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The quote from Zechariah is 'burdensome for [u]all people[/u]', not 'Romans', not 'one person', not 'Pontius Pilate.' Eric The(HandInYourHomework)Hun[>]:)]
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