This baffles me.  I don't care if someone is a Christian, Buddhist, Atheist, or anything else--if they can't see that Israel is in the right in this situation they are simply blind to the truth.  Why do you expect anyone who can clearly see how wrong you are in this case to agree with your interpretation of scripture?  If you are blind to one truth you are probably blind to other truth.  This is not a flame.  I just don't understand why everyone who doesn't believe the jews are given a right to the land in the bible (which is a perfectly legitimate and understandable view) has to take up the palestinian cry.  Whether or not you believe the jews have a right to the land from the bible they are clearly in the right in this situation.

This HAS to be the mother of all examples of taking something out of context.

THE VERY NEXT DAY, which you so conveniently omit, the Jewish people were SCREAMING "Crucify Christ!!! Crucify Christ!!! Release the double-murderer and seditionist Baraabbas from jail!!!"

Why the sudden change?? Scripture SPECIFCALLY explains that the chief priests, who were the political and religious backbone of Israel, stirred them up to do so.

With palm branches (the symbol of a military conquering ruler) on a donkey (symbolic of political power and kingship) they welcome Him one day, and the next day they want Him dead, and ask a revolutionary like Barrabbas be released from jail. Never have sports fans seen a greater turn-around in all of sports history.

Only ONE explanation fits this scenario - the chief priests incited the people to ask Jesus be crucified as He was NOT going to lead them to political victory, but Barabbas was.

They had jesus killed because He did not fit their pre-conceived (and CLEARLY unscriptural )ideas as to what Messiah should look like. (Barabbas did, however.) They should have known better. They should have seen the humble sufferring servant as their Messiah. But political aspirations clouded theiriew.

They STILL do (and are fed by Christian Zionists ad nauseum)

This is true,

The Palestinians were removed from their lands,

And now they're Suicide Bombing little children in shopping malls and discoteques.

Post from hg112 -

LOL. I am certain that, as a brilliant person yourself, you are quite aware of the fellows who said that of lawyers in Shakespeare's play, right?

It is from [i][b]Henry VI, Part 2:[/b][/i]

JACK CADE (a lawless buffoon and pretender to the throne):
Valiant I am.

SMITH [aside]:
'A must needs; for beggary is valiant.

JACK CADE:
I am able to endure much.

DICK [aside]:
No question of that; for I have seen him whipp'd three market-days together.

JACK CADE:
I fear neither sword nor fire.

SMITH [aside]:
He need not fear the sword; for his coat is of proof.

DICK [aside]:
But methinks he should stand in fear of fire, being burnt i' th'hand for stealing of sheep.

JACK CADE:
Be brave, then; for your captain is brave, and vows reformation. There shall be in England seven half-penny loaves sold for a penny: the three-hoop'd pot shall have ten hoops; and I will make it felony to drink small beer: all the realm shall be in common; and in Cheapside shall my palfrey go to grass: and when I am king,- as king I will be,-

ALL:
God save your majesty!

JACK CADE:
I thank you, good people:- there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score; and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers, and worship me their lord.

DICK:
[b]The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.[/b]

It cracks me up every time I read it, as well!

But if Shakespeare were alive today, he would be surrounded by lawyers!

Eric The(CopyrightLawyers)Hun[>]:)]

I think this is a claim ONLY the Israel supporters beleive is true.

I DO NOT take up the Paletinains cause. I have already stated that if one side were to achieve complete victory to the compelte defeat of the other side, I would rather it be Israel that is victorious.

Let me give you a parallel -

If I say "The gov't murdered David Koresh and his followers" does that mean I side with everything David Koresh did?"

You better beleive I don't. The guy was a NUT.

Similarly, it is overly simplistic to assumne that because I criticize Israel's actions, that that places me in the palestinian camp. Of course, erronouesly making that assumption is a VERY effective way of marginizing everything else I have to say.

Three truths are apparent to me, re: the palestinains:

1. They have an ABSOLUTE right to wage war against Isreal over the land. ABSOLUTE.

2. The ONLY ability they have to do so is with AK's and whackos wearing bombs.

3. AK's and whackos wearing bombs are of NO use against US supplied jet fighters, tanks and fortified military bases. HOW ELSE DO YOU EXPECT THEM TO WAGE WAR?? WHAT TARGETS ARE LEFT THEM??? Simple - the very targets they are going after.

The fact that I can accept the reality of these three truths DOES NOT, I repeat DOES NOT, mean I like them. Not in the least.

Move away from the "false dilemma" (if "A" is not true, then "B" must be true) of NOT supporting Israel being the same as supporting the Palestinains.

Which is why my position has ALWAYS been get the US out of the region, and let that black hole implode on itself.

Not true. Those Palistinians are decendants of people who flet their lands out of blind, unreasoning fear. They were dumb enough to beleve propaganda spewed out by the neighboring Arab states, propaganda that they fell for in part because [i]they[/i] had intended to kill Jewish civilians after the Arab armies had cleared away the defending army. When the Arab armies were routed by the IDF, something most Palistinians beleved impossible, they paniced and fled, expecting the Jews to behave as a victorious Arab army would behave, they [i]projceted[/i] the behaviour they were familiar with onto the Jewish soldiers, even though they had no evidence to support such a thought.

The minority of Palistinians who were so attached to their land and their communities that they would not leave come hell or high water were rewarded by being granted Israeli citizenship, and having their persons and property protected by law. Their children got access to a first class Western education and employment as something other than farm labor. They get to live in a democratic society and become some of the wealthiest Muslims in th world who actually work for a living.

What makes the Palistinian cause even more fucked up, is that when many of the refugees fell back under Israeli control in 1967.  Instead of following the example of the Israeli Jews and settling down to live in peace with the Israelis. They again chose to fight, they continue to follow this path where they only want vengance and that will only be satisfied by killing Jews and destroying Israel. Since the citizens of Israel cant trust the Palistinians to not kill them. They lock them in the occupied territories, where there is no employment.

This barrier actually began to fall in the early 1990's and a lot of people from the Occupied territories were getting to work in Israel as the moderate Israeli governments of the time softend their stance in a search for peace. This reapproachment was not acceptable to the PLO and other terrorist organizations and they used the opportuinty to send terrorists into Israel proper to kill Jews. Since then the program has ground to a halt and once again NO Palistinians are working. Amazingly again they choose to blame the Israelis for denying them the opportunity to work, when the responsibility lies with Arafat and the other terrorist leaders.

Post from garandman -

Conveniently omit? You stop your quotation where you desire, I will stop where I desire.

But FIRST, why do you say 'THE VERY NEXT DAY'?

The Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem was on Palm Sunday, the trial before Pontius Pilate at which some of the Jews were bribed to cry out 'Crucify Him' came at the end of that week, Good Friday, it's sometimes called!

[b]How can you be mistaken about something so simple as that????[/b]

I don't claim that [u]you[/u] are hiding something under a bushel, [b]garandman[/b]. I'm counting on folks knowing their Scripture!  You included!

Now, getting back to your diatribe - you simply have no idea whether the Jews that were thronging around Jesus at His Triumphal Entry into the City of Palm Sunday, were one and the same as those goaded by the Temple leaders to ask Pontius Pilate that Barabas be released!

[b]No basis for saying [u]that[/u] at all![/b]

The Chief Priest and his entourage were not the Pharisees, who may have wanted a political victory, but surely not one brought about by a murderer and brigand such as Barabas, but Sadducees and Herodians who would [b]never[/b] have sought a poltical victory over the Romans!

[b]They were in the positions they held [u]because[/u] of the Romans![/b]

Do you really think the average Jew on the street would have kept the Herodian/Idumean party in power 'come the revolution' for a moment?

You only have to review what became of these people when the Jews actually did revolt in 66 AD - the Sadducees and the Herodians were the first put to the sword!

Yeah, and Barabas or one of his followers would have been the first to have run them through!

Please, [b]garandman[/b], read your Bible more carefully than this!

Eric The(Surprised)Hun[>]:)]

Eric,

Ian Wilson in his [i]Jesus: The Evidence[/i] points out that, assuming the mob scene even took place at all, it wasn't hard for the Chief Priest to assemble such a crowd. The Temple had a payroll of about 20,000 itself, not to mention the pissed off money lenders and their retenues. Although there could have been as many as half a million people in Jerusalem that week due to Passover, the normal population was about a fifth that. That normal population owed their livelyhood either directly or indirectly to the Temple.

As a result, Jesus had not bothered to try to minister in the area of Jerusalem [i]before[/i] Passover and when he did go there the sole attraction was that it was the place where the largest number of Jews could be found on the planet and where the largest number of people could hear his words- at the risk of a confrontation with the Priests. (pages 124-126)

Now I have a question for you, Eric, and it has nothing to do with scripture. Its why you are wasting bandwidth trying to "debate" with garandman. The quotes are deliberate since "debate" and even "argument" implies that there is the possiblity of someone changing their position and that isn't likely here.

garandman was "carefully taught" as a youngester that Jews were Christ-killers, down to even what passages to use to support that. That is now as much a part of his Self, twisted as it may be, as Christianity itself. He would die before changing it, so why do you play with him? Can you actually beleve that there are third party fence sitters that this would have a effect on who are bothering to look at this thread?

Thank you for the information from Ian Wilson's book. I had read that book before and it is amazing the amount of money that passed through the High Priest's hands and those of his retinue in the days of Christ!

That was the reason for Jesus' outburst at the Temple! It was the only time in the Scriptures that Jesus acted in an agressive manner.

The 'hands that never made a fist' made one on that day simply to cleanse the Temple of what He saw was a very unholy practice, and a very unholy alliance between the Priests, the Sadducees, and the Herodian party.

Even Rome was getting into the act!

Regarding the second part of your post, I am quite reluctant to engage anyone in a debate over the non-essential aspects of the Bible in general and the ideals of Christianity in particular.

But I succumbed to the desire to put an end to vexatious questions and disputations in the most effective manner I had available.

God and garandman will, hopefully, forgive me!

Eric The(NoMindsWillBeChangedUnlessTheHeartChangesFirst)Hun[>]:)]

Although I probably shouldn't get into this I do feel compelled to make a statement here.  It has been rather interesting to see the posts and I believe it might be a record as to how many pages have accumulated in a few hours.  I also see some of you have no jobs ha ha!! just kidding.  Eric you wrote this statement. "You simply have to hear the word of God and the story of His Son, Jesus Christ. You must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God. You must repent of your sins, which simply means a complete change in the direction your life has been headed. You must confess His name before men. You must be baptized into His death, burial and resurrection, as an adult believer. And you must continue in His goodness the rest of your earthly life".   I do believe your partially wrong.  Yes you must hear the wor of Christ, Romans 10:14-15.  Yes you must repent of your sins Romans 10: 9-10. But to add baptism is to add works which is wrong according to Ephesians 2 8-9.  Also If you must be Baptized, did they take the thief down from his cross and baptize him before his death.  I think not.

Post from RTA -

You must confess Him before men, as well: [red][b]"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven."[/b][/red] Matthew 10:32.

Baptism is not a 'work', it is a Sacrament!

Explain this passage: Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin, and a 'Judge' of Israel, comes to Jesus by night (fearful of being recognized as a visitor to the radical young Rabbi during daylight hours) and inquires as to what one must do to inherit eternal life?

[b]John, Chapter 3:[/b]

2   The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3   Jesus answered and said unto him, [red][b]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.[/b][/red]

4   Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5   Jesus answered, [red][b]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, [u]Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God[/u].[/b][/red]

6   [red][b]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[/b][/red]

7   [red][b]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.[/b][/red]

Now, RTA, how is man [u]born of water[/u] and [u]of the Spirit[/u], [b]except through baptism?[/b]

Find me [b]any[/b] example of someone coming to Jesus and believing in Jesus, [u]after[/u] Calvary, who wasn't immediately 'baptized for the remission of his sins'?

The 3,000 added to the Church on Pentecost were baptized, the Bible says plainly.

[b]Acts, Chapter 2:[/b]

37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, 'Men and brethren, what shall we do?'

38   Then Peter said unto them, [b]'Repent, and be [u]baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins[/u], and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.'[/b]

Paul was. Lydia was. The jailer at Phillipi was. The Ethiopian eunuch was.

[b]So find me one who wasn't![/b]

- continued -

Please excuse my typo in the last message.  BBT just came by and I was going through a box of goodies and trying to type this message at the same time.  Romans 10:12-13 I believe clear up yours and Garandmans debate or whatever you want to call it.  

It is true like you said that the Gospel is simple.  I believe when it was written it would be compared to our modern day 5 grade level.  God made it simple so a child can understand it or even an adult with child like faith.  

Oh, by the way, Jesus was baptized, as well:

[b]Matthew, Chapter 3:[/b]

13   Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14   But John forbad him, saying, 'I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?'

15   And Jesus answering said unto him, [red][b]'Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.'[/b][/red] Then he suffered him.

16   And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17   And lo a voice from heaven, saying, [b]'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.'[/b]

Sounds like both God and Jesus thought baptism was in fulfillment of 'all righteousness'!

No, they surely didn't, but, remember, brother, that the penitent thief died [u]under the Law[/u], and, according to the Law, forgiveness by God of any sins was all that was necessary! No baptism was required.

There are more reasons the thief didn't need to be baptized, or questions on whether he may have been baptized, but they are extraneous to our discussion!

Eric The(Believing)Hun[>]:)]

I should add this, RTA, just to be clear about the situation of the penitent thief -

1. Whoever said the thief wasn't baptized? John baptized 'many' we are told. This penitent thief did seem to know about Jesus and His message ('Remember me when Thou are come into Thy Kingdom'), so who knows?

2. Jesus disciples baptized a lot of people as well, we are told.

3. If Jesus wants to suspend the rules to allow one soul to get into Heaven without fully complying with all the 'Thou shalts' and 'Thou shalt nots', that is His business, for He alone has the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

4. The penitent thief died under the Law. This is the best and final answer to your question!

Also, remember when Jesus was discussing being 'born again' with Nicodemus - note that twice He used the strange language of 'Verily, verily.' This is actually a form of a Jewish oath that was common in the First Century AD.

Any time that Jesus uses this phrase, 'Verily, verily', prick up your ears and listen most  carefully to what follows, because it is of the utmost solemnity with which He speaks.

It is the Man of Truth, swearing to be Truthful.

I suppose that bears a little extra attention, don't you?

Eric The(Preaching)Hun[>]:)]

Eric, I appreciate your quick response.  In John 3:3 Jesus told Nicodemus something that he couldn't understand.  Nicodemus was thinking with the carnal mind not the spiritual mind.  That's why Nicodemus asked for a better interpretation v4.  The verses that you quoted support my argument.  Let me see if I can explain it.  Verse 5 - water and of the spirit are the same.  As you very well know when reading the bible you must not take one verse and try to interpret just that one verse to get the full meaning.  Other verses must agree with that one that you are looking to understand.  In verse 5 if you interpret water to mean literal water then how do you intrepret John 7:37-38, I Corinthinans 6:11.    The water and spirit in John 5:5 is the same.  The spirit cleanses the dark dirty soul like water cleanses the outside of our dirty bodies. Matthews Henry's commentary explains it better than I could.  "It is the washing of regeneration"  

Post from RTA -
Then why would the Son of God simply repeat Himself unnecessarily?  Nicodemus no more understood Jesus [u]afer[/u] His explanation than before, which amazed Jesus - 'Art thou a Master of Israel and knowest not these things?' John 3:10.

A lot of folks will say that the being 'born of water' part is fulfilled when the baby is in the amniotic fluid in the womb!

Lord! So the Creator of all life was unaware of this feature of human reproduction? He could just have easily said 'Except a man be born...and born of the spirit, he shall...'

Why must you bend the Lord's words into a pretzel in order to keep from being baptized and recognizing that the act of baptism is one of the only two required Sacraments in Christ's Church? The other being Communion.

Just look at all the language concerning Baptism that you will find in any Concordance?

Have you found [u]anyone[/u] after Calvary that was 'added to the Church' or 'saved' or anything else who was not first baptized?

What do you folks have against Baptism? Are y'all hydrophobic or something?[:D]

Jesus did it. John the Baptist did it. The disciples of Jesus did it. Phillip did it. the 3,000 on Pentecost did it. Paul did it. Lydia did it. The Philiipian jailer and his family did it. Everyone who is mentioned after Calvary did it.

All God's chillun did it.

What more do you want?

Paul called it the 'washing of regeneration':

[b]'Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, [u]by the washing of regeneration[/u], and renewing of the Holy Ghost.'[/b]

[b]'Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?'[/b] Romans 6:3.

[b]'Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.[/b] Romans 6:4.

[b]'Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead.'[/b] Collosians 2:12.

[b]'One Lord, one faith, one baptism.'[/b]
Epehsians 4:5

[b]'For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.'[/b] Galatians 3:27.

So just how important do you think baptism is?

Eric The(Baptized)Hun[>]:)]

First of all don't put words in my mouth.  You stated "A lot of folks will say that the being 'born of water' part is fulfilled when the baby is in the amniotic fluid in the womb!

Lord! So the Creator of all life was unaware of this feature of human reproduction? He could just have easily said 'Except a man be born...and born of the spirit, he shall...'

Why must you bend the Lord's words into a pretzel in order to keep from being baptized"....I never mentioned the baby in the womb bit.  Although I have heard that, I did not imply that.  I thought the two references (there are more) was enough to get my point across, but I guess not.   As for the twisting of GOD's word, you my friend are guilty of that.  If you believe that washing of regeneration is literally baptism, (which consists of submersion in water) then I guess GOD is guilty of sin, since in Gen 6:6.  Before I go any further let me state that I believe the Bible (KJV 1611) is the word of GOD, and I believe Christ shed his blood for my sins, and I'm saved through the blood of Christ, and thankfully one of these days will be promoted to heaven.  So I believe the Bible.  I know that GOD does not lie.  I've said all that to say this.  Words can have two meaning or definitions.  "I repented of my sins".  "It repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth"......Gen 6:6.  Same word but I believe two definitions.  

Oh by the way, I will get to the rest of your post in due time.    

Post from RTA -

I didn't. That's why I said 'A lot of folks will say...' If I had been talking about you, I trust that you know that I would have said 'You.'

That's why I put that part in there, so that we could both agree that it would be plainly ridiculous to hold that Jesus was saying that!

I suppose you're looking up something on Genesis 6:6, but let me address Titus, Chapter 3, Verses 4-6, regarding the 'washing of regeneration':

4    But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5   [b]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost[/b];

6   Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Now if those verses, specifically Verse 5, don't convince you that 'baptism' is not a work, but a Sacrament, then all hope is lost!

The writer, Paul, was telling us that Christ saved us, not by our righteousness, but by His mercy! Two elements enter into Christ's saving us - these are referred to in John 3:5, quoted above, as the birth of water and of the spirit!

The actual language used in this verse is 'the bath of regeneration' All commentators of any reputation hold that this refers to 'baptism' - Meyer, Olshausen, Lange, Plumtree, Schaff, Canon Cook, Wesley, etc.

As a matter of fact, I know of no reputable commentator that holds this reference to be to anything other than water baptism. Please show me which commentator I may have missed, I am always eager to learn. Regeneration is due to the Holy Spirit, but baptism is an outward act that God requires to complete the fact - the [red][b]'in order that all righteousness might be fulfilled'[/b][/red] part of Christ's declaration to John the Baptist! Not His regeneration, since He needed no regeneration, but as an example to us, for our regeneration!

So do I, but I also believe that salvation entails the observance of the two Sacraments that Jesus personally gave to all believers for all time: Baptism and communion!

Neither of which are 'works', no more than a simple prayer is a 'work.'

Take you time, dear brother, hopefully we will have all the time in the world.

Eric The(LookUpThose'Unbaptized'SaintsForMe,AsWell!)Hun[>]:)]

How Important do I think Baptism is?  Well I believe a person should be baptized, after they have repented of their sins.  Or I guess you could say after they have been saved, Romans 10:13.  Baptism is a picture of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.  It is a public profession of faith. It is not a requirement for salvation.

For example, when I got married 20 years ago, my wife put a ring on my finger and I put one on hers.  If I take my ring off am I still married?  If I put on a wedding ring before we got married does that make me married? No
If I put a ring on a childs finger it doesn't make them married.

So baptism is a public profession, and not a requirement for salvation.  I believe Jesus Christ died for my sins because there is no way that I could save myself.  

When Philip was talking to the eunuch
the eunuch asked "See here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized".  Philip said  "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answereed and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."  The saving part came first.  When the thief on the cross said "LORD remember me".....  he had put his faith in Jesus Christ already.

By the way I got out my Matthew Henry Commentaries and found his discussion of Titus 3:5, and the 'washing of regeneration.'

As I previously said, no commentator of any reputation has ever held the 'washing of regeneration' to be anything other than water baptism, and, sure enough, Matthew Henry is one who believes so too!

From his Commentaries:

"Here is the outward sign and seal thereof in baptism, called therefore the washing of regeneration. The work itself is inward and spiritual; but it is outwardly signified and sealed in this ordinance. Water is of a cleansing and purifying nature, does away the filth of the flesh, and so was apt to signify the doing away of the guilt and defilement of sin by the blood and Spirit of Christ, though that aptness alone, [u]without Christ’s institution[/u], would not have been sufficient.

"This it is that makes it of this signification on God’s part, a seal of righteousness by faith, as circumcision was, in the place of which it succeeds; and on ours an engagement to be the Lord’s. [u]Thus baptism saves figuratively and sacramentally, where it is rightly used[/u]. [b]Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling upon the name of the Lord[/b], Acts 22:16. So Eph. 5:26.

"That he might sanctify and cleanse us by the washing of water by the word. Slight not this outward sign and seal, where it may be had according to Christ’s appointment; yet rest not in the outward washing, but look to the answer of a good conscience, without which the external washing will avail nothing. The covenant sealed in baptism binds to duties, as well as exhibits and conveys benefits and privileges; if the former be not minded, in vain are the latter expected. Sever not what God has joined; [b]in both the outer and inner part is baptism complete;[/b] as he that was circumcised became debtor to the whole law (Gal. 5:3), so is he that is baptized to the gospel, to observe all the commands and ordinances thereof, as Christ appointed. [red][b]'Disciple all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you'[/b][/red], Mt. 28:19, 20. [b]This is the outward sign and seal of salvation, baptism, called here the washing of regeneration.[/b] (7.) Here is the principal efficient, namely, the Spirit of God; it is the renewing of the Holy Ghost; not excluding the Father and the Son, who in all works without themselves are concurring; nor the use of means, the word and sacraments, by which the Spirit works; through his operation it is that they have their saving effect. In the economy of our salvation, the applying and effecting part is especially attributed to the Holy Spirit. We are said to be born of the Spirit, to be quickened and sanctified by the Spirit, to be led and guided, strengthened and helped, by the Spirit."

What think you on this, now?

Eric The(Believing)Hun[>]:)]

Eric, you mentioned in an earlier post,
"3. If Jesus wants to suspend the rules to allow one soul to get into Heaven without fully complying with all the 'Thou shalts' and 'Thou shalt nots', that is His business, for He alone has the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

4. The penitent thief died under the Law. This is the best and final answer to your question!"

Well the LORD does not change his mind as you and I do.  Malachi 3:6 , James 1:17.  There are other verses that show GOD does not change.  You are right in that he has the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.  

I don't believe the thief died under the law.  I think that according to the timeline of Jesus Christs death you will see that Jesus died first, John 19:30.  Then the other guys died afterward.  This is why I say that.  If they would have died under the law there was no way for them to go to heaven.  I believe Jesus knew He had to die first so that the thief, since he believed in Him, could go to heaven just like He said he would.

Post from RTA -

It's not how important that you think that baptism is, it is what you think God has commanded of all of His followers. Jesus taught that His disciples were to go into all the world, preaching His gospel, and baptizing His believers. As a matter of fact that was His last commandment to His church!

Did you read what Paul said in the other verses that we have not even touched upon? Did you read what Matthew Henry said about Titus 3:5?

Did you find anyone in the New Testament, after Calvary, that was saved without being baptized? I can tell you the answer - it is no.
Simply because [u]no[/u] one is/was/or will be saved without water baptism!

The way that Paul put it, was that baptism united us to Christ in His Death, Burial and Resurrection!

Sez you! No man can enter into the Kingdom of God without it, sez Jesus! Pretty simple!

- continued -

If the authority in charge of marriage said that by taking off the wedding ring you were no longer married, or by putting it on a child's finger you were, then you'd be up a creek wouldn't you?

Well the Authority in charge of entry into Heaven has said that there are certain acts that you must perform in order to enter into His Kingdom. Water baptism is one of them.

It's not a requirement that I'm putting on you, or the Church is putting on you, or Matthew Henry, or any other theologian is putting on you, it is the commandment of Christ!

Nope! Jesus kindly says otherwise. It's His Kingdom, after all.

No one can save themselves.

That's right, so far.

The Scripture doesn't say that! That cannot be
assumed from the passage. We are not told when the 'saving part' came. It is arrogant and the height of presumptuousness to claim something as true that you have no way of proving!

Very good. But you do understand that the penitent thief died under the Law, which would have permitted him to go to Heaven [u]if[/u] he had been forgiven of his sins. Which he was, by Jesus.

Jesus can permit anyone He desires to come into His Kingdom, but I wouldn't hold out hope that I would be able to get in under the same circumstances as the penitent thief.

When the 'Church age' began, there is a plan and a pattern for salvation, which we ordinary men and women have no power to set aside!

Eric The(Believing)Hun[>]:)]

Tell you what.  Since there is no way that I can convince you that baptism is works and not part of salvation.  Since there is no way you can convince me that baptism is part of salvation, lets call it quits for the night.  If anything it make for good reading on other viewers part, and I enjoyed it.  

I will stay out of the religous side of the argument as I feel unqualified to comment.


Quoted:
......the cry today is to kill the rags, ragheads, subhumans and vermin. The last two are especially distressing as those are the exact words used by the Nazis to describe the Jews.

Dehumanization of the Palestinian people is well underway.


I am the one who used the term "vermin".  I stand by that term as it clearly applies to terrorists such as Arafathead and bin Leaden!!  I see ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM AND COCKROACHES and suggest identical treatment.  Interesting comment about the Nazis as the vermin are far more nazi like than the Jews.  If the moslems wish to be considered human, they first need to BEHAVE like humans!!  Screw 'em!!  How soon some people forget what happened on 9/11 and who did it!!

I'm so tired of all this BS from Isreal and Palestine...I'd always heard how 'high speed' the Isrealis were...been there, seen it, not impressed...SHEESH...suicide bombers are old hat there...but now with some fresh media coverage its something new? Get real!!! They can't solve their own problems because they don't want to...No Problems = less $$$$...I'm not anti-jew, but possibly less than enthusiastic Isreali, after all they spy on us, rip us off and have killed American troops....
Let the flames begin...We don't owe them a damn thing...

Hear hear! Finally someone who seems to understand that the Palestinians (and any other terrorists or people who allow terrorism to continue with their tacit approval) are only being treated the way they deserve to be treated based on their actions and attitudes! Israel has already proven that it's willing to treat Palestinians with human dignity when they act like human beings. Act like animals, and you get treated like animals. It's not a very difficult concept to understand.

[b]A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still![/b] Interesting discussion. I was raised in The Campbellite Church and understand where ETH is coming from. However, I was saved in a Missionary Baptist Church. Right now it is past my bed time. I would like to engage, give my 2 cents in this discussion tomorrow.  

Post from bsouth401 -

I am quite familiar with Missionary Baptist Church doctrine, and they believe just as much in water baptism as any 'Campbellite' church that I know of, as well.

One is 'saved' by Jesus. Period.

The fact that you were standing in a church building when it happened, is but a footnote in the story of your salvation.

Eric The(I'veNeverEvenSeen'Campbellite'OnTheDoorOfAnyChurch!)Hun[>]:)]

last comment for this thread, as it has reached a point of diminishing, nay non-existent returns.




I gotta chuckle at the "conspiracy theory' ArmdLib.

I wasn't "carefully taught" anything other than historical fact. AS I have posted SEVERAL times, the Jewsih leaders stated "Christs blood be on us, AND ON OUR CHILDREN."

The way history has played out, they HAVE INDEED paid dearly for their "admission of guilt." The record of history proves my statements re: their culpability in Christ's death to be EXACTLY correct.

But this is secondary in nature.

In THIS forum, I have LOBBIED HARD for the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ to be extended FULLY and FREQUENTLY to the Jew, such that we (the Jewish person and I) can be of the same family, same inheritance, same blessings, same mindset, same purpose, same God.

The most ardent of israel buttkissers in this forum has SELDOM IF EVER done the same (in this forum) Their focus is almost EXCLUSIVELY the land, and transitory earthly peace. Plainly stated, I wish for them a glorious eternity and fulfillment of their Biblical role, and the Israel buttkissers wish for them dirt. Worthless Middle Eastern dirt, which will be of NO value to them as they meet their Creator.

So, if you MUST see a conspiracy theory, see it in those who ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY, in their posts in this forum, wish to give them dirt instead of Jesus Christ, and His rich inheritance.

Heavens! [b]garandman[/b], you do err in thinking that this Forum [u]needs[/u] to be a Bible School Study to bring [u]anyone[/u] to Jesus, [b]Jew or Gentile![/b]

That reason, and that reason alone, prevented me from addressing you on this issue before, but you [u]insisted[/u] upon a Scriptural response from me!

[b]Very well, I gave it![/b]

And if this thread 'has reached a point of diminishing, nay non-existent returns', as you so pointedly put it, I only remind you that I warned you that needless disputations over the issues that [u]you[/u] insisted on discussing would, in due course, lead us to just this point!

So look it over, brother, it is all yours!

Eric The(SilentNoMore)Hun[>]:)]

PS - when do we get to discuss the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin?[:D]

I am quite familiar with Missionary Baptist Church doctrine, and they believe just as much in water baptism as any 'Campbellite' church that I know of, as well.

One is 'saved' by Jesus. Period.

The fact that you were standing in a church building when it happened, is but a footnote in the story of your salvation.

ETH, actually I was not in a building. The Holy Spirit was on me so hard that I went over to the pastor's house to talk to him. His wife said he is down at the chicken houses, checking on the chickens. So, I went down to the chicken houses and was led to Christ. Saved once and for all! The following Sunday i was baptised.

The following scripture is for reference.  Please, use your bible to read each whithin its context to fully understand it. However, it's not hard to figure out what it says. In interest of space and time I will only type the high points.
1. John 3:16, 5:24, 11:28 [b]everlasting life[/b] or [b]eternal life[/b]
No such thing as temporary everlating or temporary eternal, the words don't mix.
Hebrews 6:4 it is [b]impossible [/b]

I am quite familiar with Missionary Baptist Church doctrine, and they believe just as much in water baptism as any 'Campbellite' church that I know of, as well.

One is 'saved' by Jesus. Period.

The fact that you were standing in a church building when it happened, is but a footnote in the story of your salvation.

ETH, actually I was not in a building. The Holy Spirit was on me so hard that I went over to the pastor's house to talk to him. His wife said he is down at the chicken houses, checking on the chickens. So, I went down to the chicken houses and was led to Christ. Saved once and for all! The following Sunday I was baptized.

The following scripture is for reference.  Please, use your bible to read each within its context to fully understand it. However, it's not hard to figure out what it says. In interest of space and time I will only type the high points.
1. John 3:16, 5:24, 11:28 [b]everlasting life[/b] or [b]eternal life[/b]
No such thing as [u]temporary everlasting[/u] or [u]temporary eternal[/u], the words don't mix.
2. Hebrews 6:4 it is [b]impossible [/b] impossible to loose your salvation
3. 1st John 2:19 They went out form us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would [b]no doubt[/b] have continued with us:
4. 1st John 5:13 [b]These things I have written unto you that belive on the name of the Son of God; that ye may [u]know[/u] that ye have eternal life....[/u]
As for baptism, I know that it is very important in your walk but, not necessary for salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 and we all know that faith without works is dead.
One more point on the necessity of baptism as a prerequisite for salvation. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ [b]for[/b] the remission of you sins.
The word for in the English language can mean two altogether different things. For example; If you get sent to prison for murder, it is [u]because of[/u] the murder you committed, not [u]in order to[/u] commit murder.
Just a few things to think about as well as defending/explaining the reason for no musical instruments and other legalistic things the "Campbellites" do.  I have no doubt about my eternal destination. I wish you could have no doubts as well. I now fellowship at a Southern Baptist Church and I am quite sure that there will be a lot of surprised people when the judgement day comes. Campbellites, Baptist, Methodist and the like.

Post from bsouth401 -

[b]John Chapter 3:[/b]

16.   [red][b]'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.'[/b][/red]

So you think that simply believing in Jesus, [u]without[/u] repentance, [u]without[/u] confession, [u]without[/u] baptism, [u]without[/u] an inner change that manifests itself in good works, is sufficient enough for salvation?

Belief is just one of the requirements of obtaining salvation, simple belief is not enough! Was it enough for demons? See what James said about simple belief:

[b]James, Chapter 2:[/b]

[b]19   Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.[/b]

[b]John 5:24[/b]

24   [red][b]'Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.'[/b][/red]

So, once again, you would hold that the requirements of repentance, confession, and baptism for salvation are done away with in this one verse?

[b]John, Chapter 11:[/b]

25   Jesus said unto her, [red][b]'I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26   And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?[/b][/red]

What no repentance? No confession? No baptism?

[b]Hebrews, Chapter 6:[/b]

4 For it is [b]impossible[/b] for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5   And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6   [b]If[/b] they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7   For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8   But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; [u]whose end is to be burned[/u].

The writer of Hebrews (Paul?) is not saying that it is impossible to 'fall away', but that if you 'fall away' it would be nigh impossible for you to return!

Herbs are brought forth from the blessing by the rain, bringing forth thorns and briers is a cursed and you will be thrown into the fire!

By partaking of Christ's spirit and thereafter falling away, it would take Him going [u]again[/u] to be crucified, in order to bring you [u]again[/u] to repentance!

Most of the time when someone says something like 'once saved, always saved' which is, I believe, what you are trying to say, right?
It always follows that if you can name to them one single person who you both know was not saved, that it was obvious that he was going to hell in a handbasket, the expected response is always:

[b]Well, he was never [u]really[/u] saved anyway![/b] As if [u]we[/u] are to be the judges of the state of someone else's salvation or not!

- continued -

But forgetting all that, why do you 'read' out Paul's words concerning baptism as a necessity for salvation, as well as the very words of Christ. Himself?

[b]Mark, Chapter 16:[/b]

15   And He said unto them, [red][b]'Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16   'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.'[/b][/red]

That is called 'The Great Commission' - it is the last commandment of Christ to His followers!

Why would He command them to preach [red][b]'He that believeth [u]and is baptized[/u] shall be saved'[/b][/red], if that is not what He truly meant?

There are just too many times that Jesus commands us to hear and obey His words and His commandments for us to risk disobedience in such an obvious requirement of salvation!

And insofar as being baptized 'next week' or at the next 'appointed hour', remember that no one was saved in the New Testament after the death of Christ at Calvary, who was not baptized, and who was not baptized immediately!

The 3,000 at Pentecost were baptized that very day, so was every other person, including the Philippian jailer and his family [u]after[/u] midnight!

Eric The(WhyTarryAboutACommandmentOfChrist?)Hun[>]:)]

Eric, I had to jump in again.  It seems you are trusting your baptism to get you to heaven whereas I am trusting Christ to get me to heaven.  Baptism is not a saviour.  I am a Baptist.  An Independent Fundamental Baptist.  But I am trusting and putting my faith in Christ.  Sure there has to be repentance, on my part and forgiveness, grace or mercy on Christs part, but that is it.  It seems like adding baptism to what was already accomplished on the cross is a slap in the face to GOD.  It's a free gift, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:8.  If I give you a gift, are you gonna pay me for it.  Of course not.  Hopefully you'll take the gift and keep it.  

Yes once saved always saved.  John 10:28-29

Post from bsouth401 -

In your humble opinion, maybe, but the words of both Christ and Paul tell us differently!

Where is your example of that one soul saved after Calvary that was not immediately baptized? Surely you should be able to find [u]one[/u], [u]if[/u] it was a common practice!

But you will not find even one! What you will find is repeated teachings of the absolute necessity of water baptism!

So you continue in your belief that baptism is a 'work' and not a Sacrament?

Then tell me something - is prayer a 'work'? Is repentance a 'work'? Is confession a 'work'?

Can someone receive salvation who never prays, repents, or confesses Christ?

Surely your answer is no?

Same with baptism, brother, same with baptism!

That seems extremely clear to me, brother! Try to remember that Peter and the others were preaching salvation to the crowds! They were in effect [u]teaching[/u] the crowds! Trust me that the preaching and teaching were correct in every respect!

And they preached BAPTISM FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS!

Just as Jesus had, just as Paul would, and just as every Christian church did until a very, very recent period!

For the very first time in the Church's very young history, the requirements of this new faith are given once for all time in a public forum - at Jerusalem at Pentecost!  These very requirements were preached over and over again without change for a very long period of time.

The effect was very clear - you [u]must[/u] be baptized for the remission of your sins!

'Cambellites'? Brother, why would you call anyone a 'Campbellite'? I am simply a member of the church of Christ, a member of His body.

You show a tad bit of animosity towards me for no reason whatsoever. Is that how Christ has come into your heart and changed you for the better?

'Legalistic' is just a pejorative term used in denying that the commandments of Christ are simply to be [u]obeyed[/u], not [u]debated[/u]!

I have no doubts about my salvation provided I keep following in Christ's goodness.

If I stray, and fail to heed my Master's voice to come back, then I will surely perish.

As will we all. Whether we know it or not!

Apparently, so!

All they need do is to keep His commandments!

[b]John, Chapter 14:[/b]

23   Jesus answered and said unto him, [red][b]'If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.'[/b][/red]

Eric The(SeemsSimpleEnough!)Hun[>]:)]

Post from RTA -

Where in God's great earth did you get THAT from anything I've said?

Baptism is the initiation rite into His Church.
It is an initiation rite that even He endured in order that [red][b]'all righteousness be fulfilled.'[/b][/red]

It is an intiation rite that every adult believer who enters into Heaven will have undergone, if he or she died after Pentecost!

But many, many, many people who have undergone this rite will, of course, fall by the wayside.

Judas Iscariot was someone who was most likely baptized, along with the other disciples.

Baptism didn't save him now, did it?

So where did you get the idea that baptism is anyone's 'savior'?

Surely not from me, and whether you think it seems or not is beside the point! Right?

Nope, it isn't. It is simply a Sacrament that you must perform in order to be saved. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

As am I, brother. I am putting my faith in Christ and every word that proceedeth from the Mouth of God.

Why, you just added repentance? Let Christ tell us what He means in simple and unvarnished truth - [red][b]'except a man be born of water...'[/b][/red][red][b]'he that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved...[/b][/red]

How can it get any more simple than that?

That's for certain, I didn't pay anything for it - He did.

If you give me a gift, and I refuse to do anything in exchange for that gift, if I despise that gift, if I tell others how lousy the gift is, if I fail to do anything that you have asked me to do regarding the gift, would anyone blame you if you found the gift, trashed, on the side of the road, and picked it up and kept it yourself?

Yes, that's what I heard some believe. Let's look at the verses:

John, Chapter 10:

28   [red][b]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29   My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.[/red][/b]

But who are His sheep? Very simple:

27   [red][b]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:[/b][/red]

Did you hear His voice? Are you following Him?

Then you should have no problem. But if you cease to hear His voice and to follow Him, what promise do you have then?

None! No man has taken away your salvation, you have forfeited it by your own actions!

Eric The(Sorry!)Hun[>]:)]

ETH, I do not have an ounce of animosity towards you. We just tend to belive differently. While I disagree with you on the baptism thing, we have a lot in common.
Confession of sins is simply agreeing that they are wrong or against God. It is done in the heart and can be spoken. Sins can be of commission and commission. Do you have to confess of each and every one independent of each other? Let's hope not.  
Repentance is a Greek military term meaning about face or to turn around. Again, it is done in the heart first and foremost.
I believe that first without the Holy Spirit convicting you of your sins, your confession (agreeing), and repentance (turning) there can be no salvation. I believe that Christ was born a virgin birth and that He died on the cross for my sins. He rose again and is at the right hand of the father. I believe that the best that we could do on our own are "as filthy rags"{Isaiah 64:6) I believe that his grace is sufficient and the law was replaced by his grace.
I do respect you ETH and your interpretations and wish I was half as eloquent and articulate as you.

I guess you don't believe in eternal security.  Which the bible teaches.  The bible plainly teaches that when a person gets saved they are saved forever.  To other wise is to say that you are on the same level as Jesus for he knew no sin. A person sins everyday.  There's no way to get out of that.  We are human.  It's up to that person to confess that sin to God and be restored to fellowship with Him.  (I John 2:12)

John 14:16 tells us that a person that is saved has the Holy Spirit in them.  I don't think you will find anywhere in the bible where the Holy Spirit moves out.  The bible does talk about people that have fallen out of grace with God, and we are supposed to try to bring them back into grace.  I believe there is a parable about that also.  (Luke 15: 11-32).     In verse 24 the father makes this statement:  For this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.  And they began to be merry.   So Jesus was saying that some will fall out of fellowship but it is possible to get right with GOD.  Dead in the verse does not mean physically dead.  It means spritually dead.  But while he was spiritually dead, he was still a descendent of his parents but he was out of fellowship with his parents.   I believe once a person is saved, they are eternally saved.    

Eric, in your quote of Mark 16:16, commonly known as the great commission, I believe your quote and the Bibles writing support my argument.  In verse 16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; and he that believeth not shall be dammed."  
You apparently are looking only at the first part of the verse.  The last part "he that believeth not..."  does not have the word baptism in it.  For you to make an argument that baptism is required for salvation on this verse nullifies your argument.  Jesus said "believeth not"...   I know your earlier post on the devil believing.  And I have heard that and I also use that verse when I go out soul-winning.  Believe in the bible is to put your faith, trust and belief in Jesus Christ and that he will save you.  Yes I know anyone can say I believe but what do they believe.  Without faith, and trust in Jesus Christ.  That's why James 2:19 latter parts states "the devils also believe, and tremble."  The devils know they they are not allowed in heaven.  So believing is just not from the mouth.  I believe it is from the heart (faith, trust that Jesus will take you to heaven) and from the mouth concerted together that make up the word believe.  Romans 10:9-11

I would like to go further on this but for now my computer keeps disconnecting for lack of activity (I guess jumping around pages).

Post from RTA -

'Plainly teaches'? If so, it's been another
[u]mystery[/u] that has been hidden from His people since the beginning of His Church.

Although the Roman Emperor Constantine had converted to Christianity in 312 AD, after his victorious Battle of Malvian Bridge, he was not baptized (by 'sprinkling', BTW, because he [u]refused[/u] to be immersed!) until just before his death in 337 AD, by Eusebius of Nicomedia, no less!

Why wait so long? Deathbed baptisms were common in this period, but why?

Because the early Church had somehow come into the idea that once you were baptized, any future sins were unforgivable! This was in error, of course, but is certainly shows that 'once saved, always saved' was certainly not a belief in the early Church!

This was in error, of course. Once you have been 'united with Christ in baptism' the only thing that you need to do is to stay in Christ.
That you can do by obeying His word and keeping His commandments.

Surely you are bound to commit sins in the future and you will most certainly have to ask His forgiveness for such sins. All you need do is to pray for your forgiveness and it is done! He is faithful to forgive, and, equally important to forget!

And then there is [b]I Peter, Chapter 3:[/b]

20   Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, [u]eight souls were saved by water[/u].

21   [b]The like figure whereunto [u]even baptism doth also now save us[/u] (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, [u]but the answer of a good conscience toward God[/u],) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:[/b]

22   Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

See?

[b]'Baptism doth also now save us!'[/b] It is the answer of a good conscience toward God! Why? Because God has demanded it!

- continued -

Who says any of us are on the same level as Christ? Not now! Not here! In the [u]next[/u] Kingdom, of course, but not now!

Restored to His Kingdom is more like it! If the Prodigal Son had remained in the far-off country, and died in the pig pen with the hogs, would he ever have been a son in his Father's house again? Nope! Same with us!

It is only the [u]first[/u] part that should concern either you or me!

If you [b]'believeth not'[/b], all the water baptism in the world will not make you saved, nor will it save you in the Day of Judgment!

Right?[:D]

And if it truly is in your heart there will be some sort of natural exhibition of that change!

In the last week of Jesus' earthly ministry, as He and His disciples walked back and forth from Bethany to Jerusalem, it is told of how Jesus was hungry and saw a green fig tree off in the distance.

[b]Matthew, Chapter 21:[/b]

19. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, [red][b]'Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever.'[/b][/red] And presently the fig tree withered away.

Now the season of figs was not yet come, but the greeness of the tree promised fruit. When Jesus arrived at the tree to eat, it was barren and had no figs at all. Jesus cursed the tree and the next day the disciples saw that it had withered.

Why?

Because it had the promise of being fruitful, but was, in fact, unfruitful. You being a confessed Christian have the promise of bearing fruit. If no fruit is produced in your life, well let's just say that the fig tree got off lightly!

Eric The(Baptized)Hun[>]:)]

RTA, thanks for your support on this topic. I am so thankful for God grace and that the law does not have to be followed to the T. Not even the most righteous person who ever walked would be capable of making it to heaven without Christ shed blood. It must be a miserable way to live always wondering is you were saved or not. ETH, no one is given a license to sin once they are saved. Not unlike the parable in Luke 15:11-31, I have strayed a time or two, but due to the Holy Spirits conviction I straiten up. For those who are following this thread who are not Christians, don't get bogged down or turned off to petty dickering between the different denominations. Lots of churches have split when people are dogmatic on traditions, philosophies, or building doctrines based on scripture taken out of context. Just be assured that God loves you and believe it or not God loves Usama Bin Laden too. He has provided a way to heaven through his Son Jesus. If you are following this thread and have questions concerning your eternal destiny open up a bible, attend a church or call someone you know is a Christian. He or she will be honored to help you.

This is my last post on this particular thread. Again, [b]a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still[/b].

Post from bsouth401 -

A lot of good that God's love will do for either me or Mr. Bin Laden, so long as we are unfaithful in our actions. I certainly don't know how you offer much of a 'rest assured' to Mr. Bin Laden, but thanks for including [b]me[/b] right along with him![:D]

Here is Christ's message to His Church in the early morning of the day on which He Died for our sins. His message has not changed since! So, listen to your Savior!

[b]Matthew, Chapter 25:[/b]

15   [red][b]If ye love me, keep my commandments.[/b][/red]

16   [red][b]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;[/b][/red]

17   [red][b]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[/b][/red]

18   [red][b]I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.[/b][/red]

19   [red][b]Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.[/b][/red]

20   [red][b]At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.[/b][/red]

21   [red][b]He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.[/b][/red]

22   Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23   Jesus answered and said unto him, [red][b]If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.[/b][/red]

24   [red][b]He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.[/b][/red]

25   [red][b]These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.[/b][/red]

26   [red][b]But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.[/b][/red]

27   [red][b]Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.[/b][/red]

'Bring all things to your remembrance', the Lord said. Why? Because if you love Him, you will keep whatsoever He commanded!

And He commanded water baptism for all believers!

Right?

Eric The(Baptist)Hun[>]:)]

Wrong

Post from RTA -

What's wrong? It's easy enough to say, but to what part of what I've stated are you referring?

If it's about the water baptism part, well, then, I'm sure you've found an example of someone after Calvary who wasn't immediately baptized for the remission of his or her sins.
Right?

Nope, that's wrong, cause there wasn't anyone like that!

How about the conversion of Paul on the Road to Damascus? That's a good place to see what Jesus wants from His followers [u]after[/u] His death at Calvary and Ascension into Heaven! Let's see....

[b]Acts, Chapter 9:[/b]

3   And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4   And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, [red][b]Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?[/b][/red]

5   And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, [red][b]I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks[/b][/red].

6   And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, [red][b]Arise, and go into the city, [u]and it shall be told thee what thou must do[/u][/b][/red].

7   And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8   And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9   And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

10   And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

11   And the Lord said unto him, [red][b]Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,[/b][/red]

12   [red][b]And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight[/b][/red].

13   Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14   And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15   But the Lord said unto him, [red][b]Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:[/b][/red]

16   [red][b]For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.[/b][/red]

17   And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18   And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, [u]and arose, and was baptized[/u].

[b]And was baptized![/b] Obviously one of the things that Ananias told Paul that he '[red][b]must do[/b][/red]', was to be baptized!

Now, let's next hear the same story told from Paul's point of view. See if you can see any additional nuances in this story!

Eric The(Patient)Hun[>]:)]

The very same story as before, this time told by Paul:

[b]Acts, Chapter 22:[/b]

6   And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

7   And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, [red][b]Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?[/b][/red]

8   And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, [red][b]I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.[/b][/red]

9   And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

10   And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, [red][b]Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of [u]all things which are appointed for thee to do[/u].[/b][/red]

11   And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

12   And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

13   Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

14   And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

15   For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

16   [b]And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.[/b]

And now my Brothers and Sisters, let me ask of you the same question that Ananias asked of Paul:

[b]Why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord![/b]

Eric The(BelievestThouThis?)Hun[>]:)]

Acts 22:16, standing alone, could mean either that baptism washes away sins, or it could mean that calling on the name of the Lord washes away sins. Comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know that the true meaning is the latter. Romans 10:13 says whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. There is absolutely no mention of baptism in Romans 10. Those who repent and trust the Lord Jesus Christ receive forgiveness of sins and eternal life, and baptism signifies this spiritual reality.

Acts 16:30-31, plainly tell of the philippian jailor getting saved first.  Then later he got baptised.  Verse 30, And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must i do to be saved? (verse31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.  

Afterwards in verse 32 they were baptised.  But it was after they were saved.  It did not say Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get baptised and thou shal be saved.  No, baptism.

[b]Matthew, Chapter 4:[/b]

2   And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He was afterward an hungred.

3   And when the tempter came to Him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4   But He answered and said, [red][b]It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God[/b][/red].

Well, maybe some believe that not 'every word' from the mouth of God is worth living by in their personal walk of faith.

Eric The(Careful,LestTheeStumbleInThatWalk)Hun[>]:)]