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Posted: 4/7/2002 9:54:33 AM EDT
I'm in the works of getting a firearm store/shooting range up and running. My question relates to the firearm range which will be indoors. My first experience with "tactical" firearm instruction was at a range which had a sign in big bold letters that read "WARNING: You are soley responsible for keeping your weapon pointed in a safe direction. The pointing of a weapon in anyones direction will be considered a attack and that person will be shot by the range instructors without warning." I remember this sign posted over the doorway making a dramatic impression on myself and all the other "experts", many of whom previously had poor muzzle discipline. The end result of this harsh warning was people understood that they did not want to be shot by the RI, and by the same token, nobody else wanted to be accidentally shot by them. I remember the weapon discipline was always high and enforced. I don't believe anyone ever had to actually be shot. It was my idea to more or less employ the same principle and warning. But the BIG difference is this will be a public range full of people who are paying money to be there. These people will also most likely be valued customers who keep the place open. My desire is to create the safest possible environment for them and instill a understanding of gun safety. But I also don't want to unduly scare anyone or alienate them. So how would you feel walking into a range that beared a "WILL BE SHOT" warning?
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:00:18 AM EDT
I'd shoot back! What a stupid sign, how about just teaching proper range safety with competent RO's on duty.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:03:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2002 10:04:47 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Steyr, I've had muzzle discipline drilled into me since I first pointed a weapon downrange around age 10, so I would be relieved to see a sign like that. I think your problem will come in when idiots with high-dollar weapons and the notion that they know all they need to know about shooting and firearms safety start filling the lanes. They're likely to take offense because they don't have the same respect for the power of 230grn of copper jacketed lead going 920fps that we who have put many thousands of rounds downrange have. I would think those people are generally going to be your well-heeled dilletants with far more money than sense. Can you afford to alienate them and stay in business?
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:04:27 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:07:01 AM EDT
One worry would be if some "anti" comes into the range on a fact finding mission, sees this sign, and turns it against you in particular, and all of us in general.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:07:38 AM EDT
Modify the existing sign...maybe this would be a good topic: "Complete the sign" WARNING: You are soley responsible for keeping your weapon pointed in a safe direction. The pointing of a weapon in anyones direction will be considered an attack and that person will be given a {Vulcan nerve pinch/purple nurple/nuggie/painting of Elvis on black velvet} by the range instructors without warning. Make the point without making the threat. In the event of an actual infraction, a very loud and public warning should be enough to motivate most adults without scaring them away or hopefully hurting feelings. Maybe they will have to read a card of "Safety Commandments" outload over gunfire. You get the idea. Have fun. Be safe. -White Horse
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:07:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: I'd shoot back! What a stupid sign, how about just teaching proper range safety with competent RO's on duty.
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It was for this reason, everyone there HAD firearms instruction. And despite YEARS of hearing the same "parroted" warnings, many of these guys were still notorious for muzzle sweeping heads and turning around with their weapons, etc. Many people hear the same standard warnings and tune them out without actually grasping the signifigance. I'm also assuming YOU would never shoot back as you hopefully would never violate the "don't point it at me" rule. But I appreciate your responce. This is my fear, that people will react to it this way.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:12:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By White_horse: Modify the existing sign...maybe this would be a good topic: "Complete the sign" WARNING: You are soley responsible for keeping your weapon pointed in a safe direction. The pointing of a weapon in anyones direction will be considered an attack and that person will be given a {Vulcan nerve pinch/purple nurple/nuggie/painting of Elvis on black velvet} by the range instructors without warning. Make the point without making the threat. In the event of an actual infraction, a very loud and public warning should be enough to motivate most adults without scaring them away or hopefully hurting feelings. Maybe they will have to read a card of "Safety Commandments" outload over gunfire. You get the idea. Have fun. Be safe. -White Horse
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THANK YOU, great idea. OK guys help me make this message PC/socially acceptable. BTW, in the handful of times I've taught people on the side, this is the warning I've given them. However Joe Q. Public and his family can be a squirrly crowd. And I don't want to create a "scary place" with 8 year olds going "Daddy the sign said they were gonna shoot me."
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:12:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:14:43 AM EDT
Good luck with your venture! I would respect a sign like you described. I always shoot in the great out of doors, 90% of the time by myself, so I'm not much help.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:17:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: I'd shoot back! What a stupid sign, how about just teaching proper range safety with competent RO's on duty.
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It was for this reason, everyone there HAD firearms instruction. And despite YEARS of hearing the same "parroted" warnings, many of these guys were still notorious for muzzle sweeping heads and turning around with their weapons, etc. Many people hear the same standard warnings and tune them out without actually grasping the signifigance. I'm also assuming YOU would never shoot back as you hopefully would never violate the "don't point it at me" rule. But I appreciate your responce. This is my fear, that people will react to it this way.
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Like Jarhead_22 said, I have had muzzle discipline drilled into my head since I was 11 or 12, however, I also know that it's human nature to react to a threat in a similar fashion. That sign is a threat to injure or kill at a RO's discretion. Just as in general society, you cannot legislate or force all people to comply with the rules, mistakes and careless handling will always be present whether on the range or driving down the street. We all know it's against the law to speed the wrong way down a one way street, but that doesnt stop idiots from doing it.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:43:23 AM EDT
It is obvious, and I kinda knew, this sign won't fly in a public range. But I want to make the "same" impact without the threat. How should it read? C'mon guys help me out.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:52:18 AM EDT
Check the laws in Florida. Here in Texas, pointing a gun at someone is assault. Making folks aware that they are committing an assault might get some brains working in this litigious society.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:54:39 AM EDT
How about this for the fill-in the blank.... ...will immediately be ejected from the range and will not be allowed back into the range area until safe gun handling techniques have been learned and demonstrated.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:13:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2002 11:14:51 AM EDT by LngBchAR15]
That warning message is very intimidating. However, I'm for it. But please consult a lawyer before you do it because I'm not sure about the legality of such warning. I live in Southern CA and I'm so used to seeing poor range manners. I've seen guys walking down range to setup paper target while people were still shooting. I've seen little boy shooting handgun without proper parental supervision, he failed to keep the muzzle pointed down range. I've also seen guys gathering around my guns during "seize fire" period. I have no problem if they admire my guns, but do they have to gather around my shooting bench while I'm down range changing or inspecting the target? I've also see people shooting glass or metal debris with semi-auto assault rifle (AK or SKS)at 15 yards causing debris to fly up and scatter. These people ought to be banned from the range, they are not there for marksmanship but for amusement. I wish they learn that gun is not a toy. I also hate it when strangers (except range officers) stand behind me while I'm shooting. Indoor shooting ranges here are usually more civilized. I'm scared to go to any outdoor shooting ranges in L.A. area because majority of them at the range are idiots. I'm saving up for body armor because one of these days, idiot would accidentally discharge the firearm and kill or injure someone at the shooting range.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:20:34 AM EDT
I was at an outdoor public range last summer. The place was very busy with all the various ranges at near capacity. I was blasting a sheet rock bucket in the "plinking range" (anything allowed) with my Mossberg Cruiser, when all of the sudden everybody nearby dropped to the ground. As I looked down the line some @$$ with a full auto AK had jammed the gun, and had it pointed up line as he tried to clear the jam!! Needless to say I hit the dirt too! I was never so scared at a range facility. But it really pounded home the need for extreme discipline at a public range, as well as the potentials for disaster that could be wrought by just one ignoramus. My first thought was to go and kick the $&!% out the ^%&$$#&^, but common sense took over and I left the range. About 8 or 10 others followed my lead, and we all drove up to the range office to suggest the removal and prohibition of the &%^$$* in question. I never found out if anything followed, but have not seen the Darwin candidate back there so far. If I ever do I will be headed out the door. Again.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:25:38 AM EDT
I've always been aware of muzzle discipline, unfortunately many others aren't. At the club I shoot at, we have 25, 50, 100 & 200 yd berms. I had put up the flag, my car was the only other one there and my guns were clearly visible on the bench I was using. I was down range at the 200 yd berm setting my targets, when some idiot drove up with his friend and his brand new AK. They got out of the car, immediately walked to the line and started popping away at the 25 yd berm about 50 feet to the left, and 175 yds in front of where I was standing. His friend and he were impressed with how well they could make the dirt fly when they heard shots coming from down range. (I wasn't shooting at them, but they sure thought I was). They packed up and hauled ass out of there before I could get back to the line. I turned them into the Governing Board of the club, who immediately cancelled their membership and threated to contact the CLEO who had issued their licenses. When ever I walk down range, I always go armed, usually with my 30 carb. Automag III. Someone always asked why I bother. I just tell them, if I see anyone TOUCH a gun while I'm down range, unlike the targets, I shoot back. And I'm usually a better shot at 200 yds with the Automag than they are at 25 yds with a rifle.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:29:03 AM EDT
Well I for one, would understand the intent of the sign to mean, be dang careful where that thing is pointed. The first thing my Dad taught me was muzzle control and to this day I get extremly pissed about people whose guns are pointed at me, so far only by not paying attention and not with malice. This reminds me of an old saying and I have saw it posted at the end of a few farm driveways over the years " EVERY THIRD SALESMAN ENTERING THIS PROPERTY WILL BE SHOT, THE SECOND ONE JUST LEFT". No one ever expected it to be enforced but it got the point across. In our day and age of overly sensitive people, who are looking for any excuse to get their shorts in a binder over anything, I would have to say modify the sign to offer a laess than lethal penalty!. Just my .02 Lee
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:30:20 AM EDT
I think Amish Bill has the right idea. I'd add a little embarrassment to the equation, though. "Failure to keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction will result in immediate ejection from the range. Re-admittance will be allowed only upon completion of the 'Remedial Firearms Safety 101' course. Inquire at the front desk on your way out."
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:33:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Grock: As I looked down the line some @$$ with a full auto AK had jammed the gun, and had it pointed up line as he tried to clear the jam!! Needless to say I hit the dirt too!
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Damm! That would make me soil me trousers too! I shoot with a buddy who uses a snubnose 357. As he's reloading, I look over & he's got the damn thing pointed right at me. So I says, "hey dummy, blah blah blah..... "it's not loaded", he says. Funny how it's always those "unloaded" guns that accidentally go off & kill people, huh? That kind of sign may be a little extreme, but a reminder of range safety in big bold red letters is always a good idea, even for experienced shooters. P.S.- good luck with your venture, Steyr. Nice to see ya back at AR15.cult.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 11:34:57 AM EDT
That sign sounds like just so much macho posturing. No RO is going to shoot someone unless that person is shooting is in turn shooting at someone, and we all know it. If I saw a sign like that I dunno if I would leave, but I wouldn't think much of the facility. Off the top of my head: WARNING: Firearms, when mishandled, can cause immediate serious injury or death. Therefore, for the safety of everyone, all patrons of the range WILL keep their muzzles pointed downrange AT ALL TIMES. Failure to comply with this directive, or with any range officer's command, will result in the IMMEDIATE REMOVAL of offender from the range and possible criminal and civil legal action. THANK YOU for your understanding and compliance. Good luck with your enterprise.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 1:12:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger: That sign sounds like just so much macho posturing. No RO is going to shoot someone unless that person is shooting is in turn shooting at someone, and we all know it. If I saw a sign like that I dunno if I would leave, but I wouldn't think much of the facility. Off the top of my head: WARNING: Firearms, when mishandled, can cause immediate serious injury or death. Therefore, for the safety of everyone, all patrons of the range WILL keep their muzzles pointed downrange AT ALL TIMES. Failure to comply with this directive, or with any range officer's command, will result in the IMMEDIATE REMOVAL of offender from the range and possible criminal and civil legal action. THANK YOU for your understanding and compliance. Good luck with your enterprise.
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That one is really good. No threats of violence but enough to show that you are serious about safety.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 2:46:20 PM EDT
I agree, the "violators will be shot" thing (althought an effective tongue in cheek way to reinforce thoughts of gun safety in those of us who "get the sarcasm") is eventually going to horrify some "on the fence about guns" visitor to a public range, pushing them over to the "gun people are crazy militia nuts" way of thinking. Steyr....where is your range going to be? and when will it be open? I'll likely give ya some business if it aint to far.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 3:10:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger: That sign sounds like just so much macho posturing. No RO is going to shoot someone unless that person is shooting is in turn shooting at someone, and we all know it. If I saw a sign like that I dunno if I would leave, but I wouldn't think much of the facility. Off the top of my head: WARNING: Firearms, when mishandled, can cause immediate serious injury or death. Therefore, for the safety of everyone, all patrons of the range WILL keep their muzzles pointed downrange AT ALL TIMES. Failure to comply with this directive, or with any range officer's command, will result in the IMMEDIATE REMOVAL of offender from the range and possible criminal and civil legal action. THANK YOU for your understanding and compliance. Good luck with your enterprise.
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I totally agree with this approach. It won't work unless there is 100%enforcement- people can only learn to trust that safety is important to the operators (and them) if these rules are enforced. A safe range will be a profitable one.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 5:35:29 PM EDT
I read your post earlier today, and decided to think about it before I replied. There are 2 problems you are going to experience with a range. The first is a negligent discharge (it may or may not be in a safe direction). It is impossible to "legislate" against human stupidity--no matter what sign you put up, you will have someone blow a hole in your roof, wall, etc. Hopefully it is not through another customer or Range Officer. The other problem you may encounter is Suicides. People will come in to a Gun range, rent a gun and off themselves. I'm not going to get into an ethical arguement about sucide, but it would suck to be a range owner who has to sponge up the dried blood and brains after the "police" investigation has shut you down for a couple of days, and then face the lawsuit the relatives will file (with the help of the anti-gun groups). My suggestion: A simple sign and waiver form. Make sure the person signs the waiver AND READS it. They aren't worth squat in court, but it might make the shooter think a little bit. The sign should read: You are responsible for your firearms while you are on this range. Any damage caused by you or your firearm will be charged to you, and criminal or civil actions will be started if necessary. Any breech of range safety will result in your immediate and permanant expulsion from the range. If you do not understand safe firearms handling techniques, ask the Range Officer for instructions BEFORE entering the range. All shooters on this range are expected to report unsafe firearms handling immediately to the Range Officer. To deal with possible suicides, a local range will not rent guns to individuals--there must be at least 2 of them present to allow firearms rental. Offer free range safety instructions to a newbie, along with firearms handling tips--schedule a time when a Range Officer can be around to help out. You can probably get a bunch of guys to do this for free if you give them free range time in exchange. AFARR
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 5:53:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AFARR: Offer free range safety instructions to a newbie, along with firearms handling tips--schedule a time when a Range Officer can be around to help out. You can probably get a bunch of guys to do this for free if you give them free range time in exchange. AFARR
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I like this, but I think that you should make it a mandatory safety lecture to first time users. The free firearms handling would be swank. I could sure use some help with pistols.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 8:45:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By madmedic: Steyr....where is your range going to be? and when will it be open? I'll likely give ya some business if it aint to far.
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Right now looking in the North Broward area. Gotta stay in unincoroprated areas for code and zoning restrictions. And just wanted to mention, the range was a Fed range. Everyone in there was pretty much government property, the RI probably could have shot us and got away with it. While I never saw anyone get shot, did see some asses get kicked. I saw severals signs of this type. I didn't second guess any of them. But really good ideas, thanks guys. I will probably go with a combination of several.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 8:55:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2002 8:56:14 PM EDT by trent]
How about: WARNING: You are soley responsible for keeping your weapon pointed in a safe direction. The pointing of a weapon in anyones direction will be given a $100.00 fine and kicked off the range.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 9:16:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2002 9:16:59 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Originally Posted By trent: How about: WARNING: You are soley responsible for keeping your weapon pointed in a safe direction. The pointing of a weapon in anyones direction will be given a $100.00 fine and kicked off the range.
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Hmmmm.... "We encourage the reckless handling of firearms. $100.00 fine per incident"
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 9:18:21 PM EDT
make them wear a steel pot and when they go through mandatory range orientation beat the pot with your boot or fist if they fail to keep muzzle pointed down range. Call your self DI Dickhead and eat a raw onion before you get in their stuff. Or plan B. Contact the NRA. I bet you could get some excellent input from them. For sure if you are one of the 4 million members. If your not, then shame on you. Good luck on your new endeavor.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:07:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tulsacmpshooter: make them wear a steel pot and when they go through mandatory range orientation beat the pot with your boot or fist if they fail to keep muzzle pointed down range. Call your self DI Dickhead and eat a raw onion before you get in their stuff.
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Funny.
Originally Posted By tulsacmpshooter: Or plan B. Contact the NRA. I bet you could get some excellent input from them. For sure if you are one of the 4 million members. If your not, then shame on you.
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Actually looking to avoid the standard NRA lines, people nod and tune them out. And I'm not a just a member, I'm a recruiter.
Originally Posted By tulsacmpshooter: Good luck on your new endeavor.
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Thanks.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 9:17:47 AM EDT
i've been to 5 different ranges now and every single one of them had signs EVERYWHERE regarding range rules. basic safety rules were ALWAYS at the top of the list (always treat a firearm as if it were loaded, never point a firearm at anything you aren't willing to shoot, etc.) to date this has always been sufficient. i think you'll find people breaking any rule regardless of the signs you post (call it simple stupidity). you can't force people to behave your way. you can only prevent them from behaving their way on your property. and that is the key to a safe range: automatic removal upon transgression. in addition, utilize the shooters you become acquainted with to help you "police" other shooters. fwiw, i wouldn't appreciate the sign you mentioned in your first post and probably would find another place to patronize. authority over your range is one thing, but a superiority complex rife with macho "i'll shoot you" language is sure to lose some business for you, especially when it's an empty threat.
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 10:15:48 AM EDT
How about an airhorn from a 18 wheeler semi-truck... Threaten to blast it if range rules are not followed to the letter... Besides the embarrasment, the offender will have his teeth rattled from the ear-muff piercing noise... In-range cameras, an aggressive attitude toward discipline, and the threat of a 175psi airhorn blast should deter troublemakers... Signature on a liability waiver, and holding the customer's valid driver license or I.D. is also a very good idea... Require proof of FL residence or citizenship to keep the aliens and gangbangers out of the range... Most don't have I.D. anyway... Holding/photocopying their I.D. will help if you ever kick someone out and forget who they are... You will already have a record of them on file... One local gunshop actually REQUIRES state ID before you even enter the store... You'd be AMAZED how many dirtbags and gangbangers when asked for ID, turn around and leave... Indoor ranges around here are from $7-$10 per hour per person whether you are shooting or spectating... Don't forget proper ventilation... Coughing up spent gunpowder sucks [:D] Good luck !!!
Link Posted: 4/8/2002 11:04:14 AM EDT
Since this will be in Florida, are you going to post all the signs in Spanish, too? [:\] WARNING: Keep guns pointed downrange at ALL TIMES! Violators of this rule create an immediate and deadly threat to other shooters and will be treated accordingly. I'd even go so far as to accompany the signs with cartoons for the benefit of the literacy-impaired. Cameras in the range are a good idea. I'd add a sign like this: NOTICE: For your safety, this range is under videotape surveillance.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 4:53:04 PM EDT
How's your range coming along? It should be done by now!
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 5:10:46 PM EDT
Funny thing I learned. Not only won't Broward County Code and Zone a NEW range, they are looking for ways to close down existing ones. Range down the street (Anthony Arms) just got non renewed on their insurance and is probably gone forever. Only way to do a range is to buy a existing one at "cash me out" prices. Looked at AA while it was open and they wanted too much. Revere was too small and AA Lock & Gun is owned by a vigorous ahole. The range ain't gonna happen. Thank god for Pops place.
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