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Posted: 4/6/2002 11:25:43 PM EDT
No kidding, I was hanging with the guys tonight. One guy brought his Army guard/ airport security genius friend, this guy swears that a few bullets will "toughen-up the fibers" and make the vest more resistant to gunfire. As the group howled with laughter until we nearly pissed ourselves he got a little miffed. He was serious as heck, no amount of discussion with the collection of LEO's, shooters, GI's and even a peek on the internet could change his mind. Has anybody ever heard anything like this before???
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 11:34:23 PM EDT
He is correct. Similar to hammer forging steel, repeated strikes on aramid fiber causes the molecules into a more coherent alignment, thus creating a stronger material.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 11:44:53 PM EDT
[bounce][thinking][grenade][rolleyes][smoke]
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 11:44:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 12:00:11 AM EDT
... Sure, bet your life on it. Complete BS. Actually any ballistic armor that defeats a major power projectile just once is considered to have done it job and it's time to retire that piece for posterity.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 12:09:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: He is correct. Similar to hammer forging steel, repeated strikes on aramid fiber causes the molecules into a more coherent alignment, thus creating a stronger material.
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Prove it.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 12:49:47 AM EDT
I am not an expert on body armour, but I was at a lecture on body armour offered by First Chance, and I believe that they pride themselves on the fact their body armour can take multiple hits and still prevent a round from penetrating. Many vests will stop 1 round, but very few will stop multiple rounds such as hits from a machine gun, if I remember correctly, it had something to with causing the material bunching up. After a vest has been hit with a round, it has done its job, and it is time to get another.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 12:59:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: He is correct. Similar to hammer forging steel, repeated strikes on aramid fiber causes the molecules into a more coherent alignment, thus creating a stronger material.
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Prove it.
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No!
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 1:30:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio:
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: He is correct. Similar to hammer forging steel, repeated strikes on aramid fiber causes the molecules into a more coherent alignment, thus creating a stronger material.
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Prove it.
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No!
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lol
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 3:46:44 AM EDT
Absolutely NOT !!!!!
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 4:35:36 AM EDT
I once had a knife maker tell me that punching holes in the blade actually makes it stronger. I understand how "arches" work. But I can't understand how less steel in a blade makes it stronger. As far as the vest goes, as long as its not hit again in the same exact spot, won't it work just as well a second time? Assuming you want to take the chance.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 4:51:06 AM EDT
This theory does make some sense. 1. What you have at first,(at the microscopic level), is a loosely woven collection of fibers. 2. When said fibers receive a bullet impact they compact thus creating a dense collection of woven fiber. Making a harder and stronger collection of fibers. 3. When said collection of woven fibers are compressed to their maximum stress point they become brittle(again at the microscopic level) making them less stable than when they started. So it seems that all the arguments may be right.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 4:59:55 AM EDT
The guy is a moron. Once the fibers have been stressed stopping one bullet, it's time to get another. Shooting them doesn't "toughen-up the fibers" it destroys much of the material. Vests are made of many layers up to 20 or more and it's not uncommon for the first several layers to be destroyed stopping a bullet. It might still stop 50 more bullets after it's been shot before it fails, but it might not and all it takes is one to ruin your day. Why risk your life over a few hundred bucks?
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 5:01:33 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 5:52:17 AM EDT
Topic by Lone gunman: Shooting a bullet-proof vest makes it stronger
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and shooting HP (high protein) loads fogs up Silvia Saints glasses.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 6:15:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: He is correct. Similar to hammer forging steel, repeated strikes on aramid fiber causes the molecules into a more coherent alignment, thus creating a stronger material.
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This is not true, if you get repeated hits in the same spot the follow-up rounds are MORE likely to get through the area that is damaged. When the rounds hit they deform and tear some layers. Some rounds are found imbedded in the vest. They just don't bounce off and make the vest stronger. Having the vest absorb rounds, getting it submurged, even having the vest in a car accident where it takes an impact are all reasons for a replacement, not reason to think you have a better vest. You should also consider replacing your body armour every five years. Take you old vest out and shoot it. And see for yourself the results. Watch those 55gr .223 go through both sides like butter!!
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 7:08:17 AM EDT
When said fibers receive a bullet impact they compact thus creating a dense collection of woven fiber. Making a harder and stronger collection of fibers.
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Wood is another fibrous material. Do you think you can make a sheet of plywood stronger by pounding it with a hammer? [;)]
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 7:11:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed:
When said fibers receive a bullet impact they compact thus creating a dense collection of woven fiber. Making a harder and stronger collection of fibers.
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Wood is another fibrous material. Do you think you can make a sheet of plywood stronger by pounding it with a hammer? [;)]
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No, but it you shoot it repeatedly it will be exponentionally stronger!
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 7:19:09 AM EDT
Nope....if you penatrate the outer material, water can get it, water degrades the fibers. also when it is hit it seperates the fibers, and can abrades them.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 4:04:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Imbroglio: He is correct. Similar to hammer forging steel, repeated strikes on aramid fiber causes the molecules into a more coherent alignment, thus creating a stronger material.
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Prove it.
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Mall Ninjas know this. It is what they rely on when their job requires them to take multiple hits from .308 rounds in the back. The airport security genius friend has apparently taken some Mall Ninja training.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 4:14:48 PM EDT
He is wrong. I am a firearms instructor and cadre at the local police academy for the last 7 years. Each class gets a demonstration of several types of ammunitions being fired into soft body armor. The vest stops all demonstrated handgun rounds, but is ruined for any further use. As stated above, many layers of the fabric have been penetrated and ripped up. Sometimes, the bullet is completely buried inside the vest. As for hard armor, I remember that some panels on the Bradley Fighting Vehicle had to be replaced after combat due to "stress" on the integrity of the armor. Your friend is mixing up something else that he heard with body armor.
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 4:15:57 PM EDT
"That which does not penetrate, only makes it stronger" Somehow philosophy, and body armor don't seem to go hand in hand when physics jump in to the mix.. The steel anaology is beautiful.. Keep whacking on the steel and see what happens..You'll "Align" those molecules into a nice fracture.. Meplat-
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 4:53:24 PM EDT
who wants to wear one while we try multiple round testing......
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 5:05:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/7/2002 5:09:05 PM EDT by stcyr]
If this were true, wouldn't the manufacturers be aware of this? Wouldn't they include this type of treatment in their manufacturing process? Or do you see them selling them to be "broken-in" by their customers? May be they would come with the recommendation that the user wear their vest and take a couple of hundred rounds from an LMG, before putting it to a real test!
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 5:08:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By alexanderredhook: This theory does make some sense. 1. What you have at first,(at the microscopic level), is a loosely woven collection of fibers. 2. When said fibers receive a bullet impact they compact thus creating a dense collection of woven fiber. Making a harder and stronger collection of fibers. 3. When said collection of woven fibers are compressed to their maximum stress point they become brittle(again at the microscopic level) making them less stable than when they started. So it seems that all the arguments may be right.
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NO, absolutely not guys. This is my field of expertise. I’m telling you, discontinuous KevlarAramid fibers cannot carry a load thus reducing its effectiveness. The fibers trap bullets because they “catch’ them which loads the fiber in tension. Come on this isn’t science! … Or is it?
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 5:12:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 9:34:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AeroE: This is a second vote from the Boeing guys that this is BS. AeroE, Structural Analyst
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... What? Someone agrees with me?[8D][rolleyes] (smart man)
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:10:21 PM EDT
Hmmmm....so if shooting the vest makes it stronger, then shooting it multiple times with a .50 BMG will make it indestructable! **aims Ma Deuce at Level IIA vest**
Link Posted: 4/7/2002 10:35:43 PM EDT
Get your vest on and stand up in front of this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [50]
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