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Posted: 8/21/2010 7:18:58 PM EDT
[#1]
The argument for innate rights breaks down quickly. A god could make it so that men's rights could not be physically taken away, but like Heinlein said, a drowning man doesn't have the right to live. Innate natural rights are a metaphysical construct. In real life, rights spring from the barrel of a gun, in the form of a government controlled via social contract.
Some propaganda might work better for a little while, but the truth is a matter of physics. |
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Posted: 8/21/2010 7:21:33 PM EDT
[#2]
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Too much pseudo history pop combined with bible thumping in there Go read Hume, Locke, Mills, Smith, Ricardo, Hobbes, Montesquieu, The Federalist Papers, von Mises, Hayek, etc and learn for yoursslf Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Erm, this book is based upon the writing and studies of those philosophers. No pseudo-history here. Tons of quotes and context in every chapter. Have you even opened the "5,000 Year Leap"? Yeah I thumbed thru it at the book store It's just as I described But if you don't want to do the heavy lifting....by all means read it Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I disagree with your marginalizing of the book. It's an assembly of different facets of the same overall philosophy embraced by the founders. None of the founders' ideas were original, but they were the first to combine them into a written contract and apply it in a workable way to a limited government. Sure, you can read more about these ideas from various philosophers, but 'The 5000 Year Leap' is by no means a book to pass up. Agreed. I view "5,000" as more of a beginner's book that is also good for the seasoned constitutionalist who wants to get back to the basics. Definitely read the classics, but "5,000" makes for a good starting point. |
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Posted: 8/21/2010 7:44:00 PM EDT
[#3]
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Too much God in it for me. Anyone want my copy? Sure 
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Posted: 8/21/2010 9:46:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Too much pseudo history pop combined with bible thumping in there Go read Hume, Locke, Mills, Smith, Ricardo, Hobbes, Montesquieu, The Federalist Papers, von Mises, Hayek, etc and learn for yourself Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile What? No Rouseau?   |
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Posted: 8/22/2010 7:51:35 AM EDT
[#5]
If you tie rights inextricably to god, then the non existence of god necessarily means rights don't exits either. You can see why we atheists have a problem with that concept.
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Posted: 8/22/2010 7:54:47 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: If you tie rights inextricably to god, then the non existence of god necessarily means rights don't exits either. You can see why we atheists have a problem with that concept. My other concern is if a god gives you rights, it's no better than as if Obama or some dictator 'gave' them to you. If human rights and liberties only emit from other people, there is no middle man to fuck up the social contract equation. If <insert whatever> can give them to you, <insert whatever> can take them away. |
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Posted: 8/22/2010 8:06:21 AM EDT
[#7]
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Should be read in every single high school curriculum. Sorry........no time for it.........all curriculum is filled with revisionist history and Marxism........just not enough time for your propaganda. Oh.........and don't forget sex education. 
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Posted: 8/22/2010 8:48:40 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Quoted: If you tie rights inextricably to god, then the non existence of god necessarily means rights don't exits either. You can see why we atheists have a problem with that concept. My other concern is if a god gives you rights, it's no better than as if Obama or some dictator 'gave' them to you. If human rights and liberties only emit from other people, there is no middle man to fuck up the social contract equation. If <insert whatever> can give them to you, <insert whatever> can take them away. A dictator is not a "divine entity" capable of the creation of life. The "Creator" of life is divine and can do as he pleases with his creations. Even if you disagree, you can at least understand the argument. It's largely accepted (by those who employ critical thinking skills) that a dictator cannot bestow upon the individual rights, but he can take them away.
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Posted: 8/22/2010 9:01:46 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you tie rights inextricably to god, then the non existence of god necessarily means rights don't exits either. You can see why we atheists have a problem with that concept. My other concern is if a god gives you rights, it's no better than as if Obama or some dictator 'gave' them to you. If human rights and liberties only emit from other people, there is no middle man to fuck up the social contract equation. If <insert whatever> can give them to you, <insert whatever> can take them away. A dictator is not a "divine entity" capable of the creation of life. The "Creator" of life is divine and can do as he pleases with his creations. Even if you disagree, you can at least understand the argument. It's largely accepted (by those who employ critical thinking skills) that a dictator cannot bestow upon the individual rights, but he can take them away. Just because I used dictator as an example doesn't refute the meaning behind it. If some entity can give you right, it can take them away. To say anything other than human social contracts created rights spits in the face of the physical world and waters down any determination or abilities humans have. For god to make man, then decides to give him 'good', then let the man use the good is excessive works and doesn't make sense, especially coming from an all powerful things could have just made utopia to begin with. Rationalizing why an entity that is all powerful that makes excessive work and complicated rules for stone aged people doesn't make sense. None of it makes sense. Even fucking Hindus even go, "I dunno, just is!" Don't water down the species by saying saying we can't make it on our own. |
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Posted: 8/22/2010 12:09:29 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: The argument for innate rights breaks down quickly. A god could make it so that men's rights could not be physically taken away, but like Heinlein said, a drowning man doesn't have the right to live. Innate natural rights are a metaphysical construct. In real life, rights spring from the barrel of a gun, in the form of a government controlled via social contract. Some propaganda might work better for a little while, but the truth is a matter of physics. Agreed. No one gives you a Right, and there is no such thing as an Inalienable Right. The only rights you have are those you take... And those you are willing to fight to keep... |
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Posted: 8/22/2010 12:18:26 PM EDT
[#11]
I've got to read that thing again soon.
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Posted: 8/22/2010 8:10:27 PM EDT
[#12]
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But, but the poor atheists will be offended... I wasn't. I don't care how individual rights and the Rule of Law are rationalized, just as long as they are. But as an Atheist, wouldnt the belief that rights are given by God be irrational and unfounded? Yes, if the only support you have for individual rights depends on a fictitious entity, they you have trouble. As soon as someone points out the lack of evidence, your whole argument disintegrates. |
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Posted: 8/22/2010 8:56:48 PM EDT
[#13]
Read it in the '80s, back when glen beck was just a worthless drunk.
The 'god' is the mormon god. Not the God you're thinking of. |
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Posted: 8/22/2010 10:09:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Our natural rights come from our humanity, our existence.
God only enters the equation if you ask where our humanity comes from. It doesn't matter if you answer that question with God, evolution, or whatever... you were still born with those natural rights. Rights which no one can justly deprive you of and vice-versa. Our system of govt was created to protect those rights. |
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Posted: 9/5/2010 1:48:29 PM EDT
[#15]
Has anyone read "The Making of America" http://www.amazon.com/Making-America-Substance-Meaning-Constitution/dp/0880800178 ?
I'm thinking about picking up a copy and would like to hear some opinions. |
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Posted: 9/5/2010 7:11:29 PM EDT
[#16]
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Has anyone read "The Making of America" http://www.amazon.com/Making-America-Substance-Meaning-Constitution/dp/0880800178 ? I'm thinking about picking up a copy and would like to hear some opinions. Been wanting to do the same. I hear it digs down into the philosophy of our rights more than "5,000" does; for the more experienced constitutionalist. |
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Posted: 9/5/2010 7:18:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
http://www.nccs.net/5000-year-leap/_jkgFoe95jlsf4poG/ free audio book complments for 9/12 project!  I'm listening to it on my iPhone.
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Posted: 9/5/2010 7:25:01 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: 1. The only reliable basis for sound government and just human relations is natural law. - Disagree 2. A free people cannot survive under a republican constitution unless they remain virtuous and morally strong. - Agree 3. The most promising method of securing a virtuous and a morally stable people is to elect virtuous leaders. - Disagree 4. Without religion the government of a free people cannot be maintained. - Agree 5. All things were created by God, therefore upon him all mankind are equally dependent and to him they are equally responsible. - Agree 6. All men are created equal. - Agree 7. The proper role of government is to provide equal rights, not equal things. - Agree 8. Men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. - agree 9. To protect man's rights, God has revealed certain principles of divine law. - Disagree 10. The god-given right to govern is vested in the sovereign authority of the whole people. - Disagree 11. The majority of the people may alter or abolish a government which has become tyrannical. - Agree 12. The United States of America shall be a republic. -ok 13. A constitution should be structured to permanently protect the people from the human frailties of their rulers. - Disagree 14. Life and liberty is secure so long as the right to property is secure. - disagree 15. The highest level of prosperity occurs when there is a free market economy and minimum of government regulations. - Agree 16. The government should be separated into three branches––legislative, executive and judicial. OK 17. A system of checks and balances should be adopted to prevent the abuse of power. OK 18. The unalienable rights of the people are most likely to be preserved if the principles of government are set forth in a written constitution. Agree 19. Only limited and carefully defined powers should be delegated to the government, all others being retained by the people. Impossible to maintain, so disagree 20. Efficiency and dispatch require government to operate according to the will of the majority, but constitutional provisions must be made to protect the rights of the minority. Agree 21. Strong local self-government is the keystone to preserving human freedom. Disagree 22. A free people should be governed by law and not by the whims of man. Agree 23. A free society cannot survive as a republic without a broad program of general education. Disagree 24. A free people will not survive unless they remain strong. OK 25. Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations––entangling alliances with none. Disagree 26. The core unit which determines the strength of any society is the family; therefore, the government should foster and protect its integrity. Disagree 27. The burden of debt is as destructive to freedom as subjugation by conquest. Disagree 28. The United States has a manifest destiny to be an example and a blessing to the entire human race. Disagree  |
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Posted: 9/5/2010 7:28:25 PM EDT
[#19]
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Too much God in it for me. Anyone want my copy? 
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Posted: 9/5/2010 7:28:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: A better idea alongside an inferior idea will NOT always prevail. This is a stupid fallacy that's shown to be wrong time and time again. We need to seize on the better ideas and teach those and teach WHY they are better. We need to seize the idea initiative back from the liars and fools who have raised a generation capable of electing the current government. This frightens me. I believe in the free market place of ideas. Why can't a better idea stand on it's own? Why does it need indoctrination? |
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Posted: 9/5/2010 7:36:47 PM EDT
[#21]
I'm on Number 2 in the book. Great read so far.
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Posted: 9/5/2010 7:37:07 PM EDT
[#22]
Because liberal/socialist/globalist fools and traitors have taken over the public school system, universities, entertainment, the mainstream media, and all levels and forms of government. They are either knowingly or unknowingly corrupting the hearts and minds of our citizenry. Better ideas do not necessarily win out in the free marketplace of ideas when confronted with such a potent multi-front attack. This is especially so when the principles responsible for freedom and prosperity are demonized as hateful, uncaring, ignorant and bourgeoisie. When good men do nothing evil wins by default. Lies have to be confronted boldly or the truth is drowned out by lies. Good does not win unless good men fight.
AV1611 out...... Quoted:
Quoted:
A better idea alongside an inferior idea will NOT always prevail. This is a stupid fallacy that's shown to be wrong time and time again. We need to seize on the better ideas and teach those and teach WHY they are better. We need to seize the idea initiative back from the liars and fools who have raised a generation capable of electing the current government. This frightens me. I believe in the free market place of ideas. Why can't a better idea stand on it's own? Why does it need indoctrination? |
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