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Posted: 4/5/2002 7:32:34 AM EDT
[#1]
[img]http://chicago.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/bledtodeathlyqrfn.jpg[/img]
Photo: Sami Abdeh sits near the bodies of his brother Khaled Abdeh, 37, and mother Samieh Abdeh, 64, at their home in the West Bank town of Bethlehem Wednesday, April 3, 2002. The two were killed at the home Tuesday during a heavy exchange of gunfire between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen. Sami said they died from Israeli gunfire and that Israeli troops prevented ambulances from reaching the home, and the two bled to death. (AP Photo/Carina Appel) BETHLEHEM, West Bank -- Demolished cars lined the narrow streets of Bethlehem. Shutters were ripped from the shops. And inside the homes, where frightened residents huddled for a second day, the dead shared space with the wounded. In one small house, a woman named Fatheyeh Mousa wailed for help to get a dead man's body removed from her kitchen. She did not know the man. He was named Abdel Khader Abu Ahmad, he told her, and came from a Palestinian refugee camp in neighboring Jordan. But he was wounded during the early hours of the Israeli invasion Tuesday morning and the family took him in. With no ambulances allowed on the streets, he died on a thin mat on her kitchen floor. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 7:34:25 AM EDT
[#2]
[img]http://chicago.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/mansouramended6copywwfsya.jpg[/img]
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Posted: 4/5/2002 7:36:14 AM EDT
[#3]
[img]http://chicago.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/execution.jpg[/img]
His knees were doubled up in rigor mortis. One of the legs of his green parachute jumpsuit had been burned through to the skin by a round fired at such close quarters that the muzzle flash had ignited the fabric. A gaping wound was visible in his chest - also apparently from a burst of fire from close range. What killed him, however, was the gunshot to his temple. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 7:55:19 AM EDT
[#4]
A gaping wound was visible in his chest - also apparently from a burst of fire from close range. What killed him, however, was the gunshot to his temple. Who did the autopsy to determine the cause of death? |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 8:01:50 AM EDT
[#5]
Some guy.
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Posted: 4/5/2002 8:02:45 AM EDT
[#6]
If I were a Palestinian that had nothing to do with suicide-bombings and such, I would certainly be a militant by now. If tanks rolled through my neighborhood, troops started "occupying" my property, killing my neighbors, and rounding up and detaining the males in my area, I'd certainly be a militant by now, even if I didn't start off as one.
[(:|)] |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 8:06:02 AM EDT
[#7]
The PLO have been using ambulances as gun runners etc for some time now.
The dead mom and son were caught in a cross fire you say?? Hmmmmmmm and they KNOW who shot whom?? Gee some PLO type was killed at close range during CQB?? I am shocked!!! Oh BTW I saw all of this on CBC television!! so much for you conspiracy theory! |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 8:09:11 AM EDT
[#8]
Photo: Sami Abdeh sits near the bodies of his brother Khaled Abdeh, 37, and mother Samieh Abdeh, 64, at their home in the West Bank... Sami said they died from Israeli gunfire and that Israeli troops prevented ambulances from reaching the home, and the two bled to death. How about a taste of reality... Sami said they died from Palistinian gunfire...later that day Sami was found dead by unknown sources. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 8:11:45 AM EDT
[#9]
C-Rock,
Funny that you showed a photo of some Hasidic Jews burning the Israeli flag...but hell, that's nothing! During the '73 war, a group of orthodox Jews tried to set up road blocks to stop IDF troop movements. Why? For going to war on the Sabbath, of course! As far as the other photos go, so what? People get killed in war - and it's not pretty. Never has been, never will. If you think Israel should stop doing what it's doing, great. Stand up for what you believe in. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 8:44:12 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Maybe I should of put this up on assweb..... Maybe you should. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 8:55:13 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: If I were a Palestinian that had nothing to do with suicide-bombings and such, I would certainly be a militant by now. If tanks rolled through my neighborhood, troops started "occupying" my property, killing my neighbors, and rounding up and detaining the males in my area, I'd certainly be a militant by now, even if I didn't start off as one. [(:|)] What, were you just born yesterday?!? [whacko] How naive can you get?? If I were a Palestinian and all my neighbors were volunteering for and cheering on my neighborhood kids to strap dynamite to their bodies and kill themselves - I'd have become a militant WELL BEFORE NOW! Of course I'd be taking aim against those inhuman maggots in my own neighborhood who were actually supporting and enabling these suicidal/homicidal sociopaths and I'd be cheering the appearance of the tanks. Please look into getting lasik surgery - your extreme myopia is becoming a detriment to your credibility. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 9:13:01 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: What, were you just born yesterday?!? [whacko] How naive can you get?? Please look into getting lasik surgery - your extreme myopia is becoming a detriment to your credibility. Look, I don't mind discussing this, but I think we can do without the flames. I never said I supported one side or the other, I was giving a reason why the Palestinians might become militant. As for your name-calling, go waste your efforts elsewhere. The anits love it when pro-gunners start calling each other names. Just because someone is [u]percieved[/u] as disagreeing with you, doesn't mean you should make personal attacks on them. Disagree, but try to keep it civil. [(:|)] |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 9:34:09 AM EDT
[#13]
I've seen all those photos and I'm not even a member of the grand Zionist Conspiracy!
You'll have to ask my cousin, [b]Ezra Ben Hun[/b], he's the Zionist Conspirator in our extended Hun family. Shall I post those photos showing how the.... Naaaw, why do I need you guys' permission? [:D] Be right back, with some 'gruesome' photos of [s]meine[/s], er, my own! Eric The(Hey,Ezra!GetOutTheFamilyAlbum!)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 9:44:09 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: I've seen all those photos and I'm not even a member of the grand Zionist Conspiracy! You'll have to ask my cousin, [b]Ezra Ben Hun[/b], he's the Zionist Conspirator in our extended Hun family. Shall I post those photos showing how the.... Naaaw, why do I need you guys' permission? [:D] Be right back, with some 'gruesome' photos of [s]meine[/s], er, my own! Eric The(Hey,Ezra!GetOutTheFamilyAlbum!)Hun[>]:)] Hey, Eric. Never the one to shy from the whole Israel/Palestine thing, I've noticed. I've been sitting them out here lately. Looks like there's going to be plenty of fodder for debate in the next few weeks. I'll try to bite my tongue from the spectators' seats. [(:|)] |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 10:07:55 AM EDT
[#15]
[img]http://electronicintifada.net/features/articles/execution/800.jpg[/img]
Remember these photos from the Palestinians that claimed to show the execution of an arrested Palestinian for no apparent reason? They claimed that the fellow on the ground was complying with all of the Israeli Border Guards' demands, but they went ahead and shot the poor bastid in the head, anyway! The photo at the lower left of the series is captioned 'Israeli robot examines the body of the murdered man.' What this series neglected to tell the viewer is that the Border Guards were trying to talk this suicide bomber into releasing the detonating device attached to the belt of explosives that is seen near the top of the man's body. You will note that the Border Guards hustled away the arrested co-conspirator out of concern for his safety (bloodthirsty Jewish bastids!), while they remained within harm's way to deal with this fellow. When it became obvious that he wasn't about to let go, he was shot in the head. Lights out. End of story! The 'Israeli robot' was there not to 'inspect his body' but to retrieve the explosive belt for [u]everyone's[/u] safety. This occurred in a Palestinian neighborhood! These photos tell us all we need to know about the conduct of the Israeli Border Guards. They risk their lives and limbs to stop these idiots. They remove an obvious POS from the area to insure that he is not a victim. They stay till the very end to see if the young man can be dissuaded from killing himself! God I love Israel! Eric The(Zionistic)Hun[>]:)] |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 10:57:15 AM EDT
[#16]
I am now asking myself "why do I bother reading crock's posts?"
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Posted: 4/5/2002 11:10:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Look, I don't mind discussing this, but I think we can do without the flames. "flames"?? Hardly, more like a serious question mixed with a bit of friendly teasing. I never said I supported one side or the other, I was giving a reason why the Palestinians might become militant. Good backpeddling and doublespeak there mon. Earlier you wrote: [i]"[b]If I were a Palestinian[/b] that had nothing to do with suicide-bombings and such, [b]I would certainly be a militant by now[/b]"[/i] Sure sounds like you support/sympathize/agree with their actions to me! As for your name-calling, go waste your efforts elsewhere. The anits love it when pro-gunners start calling each other names. Just because someone is [u]percieved[/u] as disagreeing with you, doesn't mean you should make personal attacks on them. Disagree, but try to keep it civil. [(:|)] I was quite civil. You had a relatively inoffensive yet misguided post and I just gave a gentle nudge. When confronted with irrational statements like you made before and you continue to make ("I would do the same thing as Palestinian militants are - but I don't agree with them") I'll certainly take liberties to have a bit of fun at your expense. This ain't charm school. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 11:12:36 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: If I were a Palestinian that had nothing to do with suicide-bombings and such, I would certainly be a militant by now. If tanks rolled through my neighborhood, troops started "occupying" my property, killing my neighbors, and rounding up and detaining the males in my area, I'd certainly be a militant by now, even if I didn't start off as one. [(:|)] The truth is that if I were Palestinian I would be doing what the Palestinians are doing and if I were Israeli I would be doing what the Israelis are doing. However, I am neither Palestinian nor Israeli but American and I would not be doing what the U.S. is doing. Most often countries are smart enough to act in their best interest but not the U.S. We have no credibility in the middle-east. (I know, I know we don't need no stinking credibility. But we must have oil.) |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 11:27:18 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: The truth is that if I were Palestinian I would be doing what the Palestinians are doing... Really!? So you'd strap dynamite onto your little children and let them detonate themselves in the middle of a shopping mall next to a baby stroller?? Hmmm... That's good to know. I'll remember that one for a long time [b]5subslr5[/b]. Edited to add: I'm clearing a wide path for your inevitable backpeddling "clarification" that I'm sure (hoping) you'll be posting quickly. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 11:55:11 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: I am now asking myself "why do I bother reading crock's posts?" Because they are addicting! [wacko] They draw ya in |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 12:08:54 PM EDT
[#21]
SO where are you? in the U.S. or in Israel? love to know I have some friends, well she isn't a JBT, must be a HHT, I will gladly give your address to.
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Posted: 4/5/2002 12:14:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: If I were a Palestinian that had nothing to do with suicide-bombings and such, I would certainly be a militant by now. If tanks rolled through my neighborhood, troops started "occupying" my property, killing my neighbors, and rounding up and detaining the males in my area, I'd certainly be a militant by now, even if I didn't start off as one. [(:|)] Funny how that works. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 12:22:05 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: As for your name-calling, go waste your efforts elsewhere. The anits love it when pro-gunners start calling each other names. Just because someone is [u]percieved[/u] as disagreeing with you, doesn't mean you should make personal attacks on them. Disagree, but try to keep it civil. [(:|)] I was quite civil. You had a relatively inoffensive yet misguided post and I just gave a gentle nudge. [i]"What, were you just born yesterday?!?" "How naive can you get??" "Please look into getting lasik surgery - your extreme myopia is becoming a detriment to your credibility"[/i] Is [u]not[/u] a "gentle nudge". Surely you can debate the issue on its merits without name-calling. When confronted with irrational statements like you made before and you continue to make ("I would do the same thing as Palestinian militants are - but I don't agree with them") I'll certainly take liberties to have a bit of fun at your expense. [i]"I would do the same thing as Palestinian militants are - but I don't agree with them"[/i] Whoooaaa! Wait a minute. You [b]quoted[/b] me as saying that? Where in this thread did you [b]quote me[/b] as saying that? Please point it out to me, as I can't see it. I must be truly "myopic", as you say. Because I can't find that [b]quote[/b] anywhere in my posts. Surely, you aren't [b]quoting[/b] words that I never said. [(:|)] |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 12:27:57 PM EDT
[#24]
How about this:
1) Palestinians stop blowing themselves up in crowded shopping malls, stop shooting up busloads of Israeli Children, stopping launching Katusha Rockets into Israeli cities, etc... 2) When all attacks cease, Israel pulls out of the West Bank, Gaza, and Golan Heights. Yeah, that'll be a cold day in hell. Case and point: The Saudi Peace Plan would have had the Israeli's pulling out of the Palestinian Areas and Jeruselam (Something they won't do). In exchange, the PLO would stop the attacks. Guess what...Hamas rejected the plan before Israel could even comment on it. Why ? The Palestinians want nothing less than the total destruction of Israel. Once they get Israel, they will only want more. Perhaps the 7th - 15th Centuries AD should be reviewed to better understand how barbaric Islam is. [url]http://noreno.no-ip.com:800/israel/[/url] |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 12:30:41 PM EDT
[#25]
[img]http://noreno.no-ip.com:800/israel/spread_of_islam.jpg[/img]
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Posted: 4/5/2002 12:37:09 PM EDT
[#26]
[center][size=2][b][u]1948 Arab Attacks on Israel (1948 War)[/u][/b][/size=2]
[img]http://noreno.no-ip.com:800/israel/1948%20Arab-Israeli%20War.JPG[/img] [size=2][b][u]1967 Arab Attacks on Israel (1967 War)[/u][/b][/size=2] [img]http://noreno.no-ip.com:800/israel/1967_war.PNG[/img][/center] |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 12:46:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Quoted: The truth is that if I were Palestinian I would be doing what the Palestinians are doing... Really!? So you'd strap dynamite onto your little children and let them detonate themselves in the middle of a shopping mall next to a baby stroller?? Hmmm... That's good to know. I'll remember that one for a long time [b]5subslr5[/b]. Edited to add: I'm clearing a wide path for your inevitable backpeddling "clarification" that I'm sure (hoping) you'll be posting quickly. I can't speak for Subslr but I wondered this very thing last night. What would I do if I had grown up in Palestine? I think the enviroment you grow up in determines much of your behavior. I can't say I would be strapping a bomb to myself and looking for the nearest Jewish public gathering but I'm sure the enviroment would have a large impact. Think about growing up in that cesspool. The religous fervor that drives the constant religous bombardment with messages such as killing for Allah is ok, Social pressure to go with the religous and that ever present promise of the multitude of virgins after you make yourself a martyr. How could you not be affected? I have seen the Mideast and other parts of the World firsthand and often wondered what kind of person I would be if I grew up in one of those places. I'm not saying I agree with their politics and their terror campaign by any means, actually I hope they are driven out of the land completely. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 2:15:27 PM EDT
[#28]
I don't care about the religious reasons, I don't care about the political reasons. There is no justification for using children for suicide bombers. Even to the point of offering families reward money if little Ahab blows a supermarket to bits. I believe thats where the female suicide bombers are coming from. After all, daughters are cheap. For that reason alone I'd pave over the West Bank and shoot every one I could find. The only fault I can find with the Israelis is that their taking too long.
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Posted: 4/5/2002 2:37:06 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: I don't care about the religious reasons, I don't care about the political reasons. There is no justification for using children for suicide bombers. Even to the point of offering families reward money if little Ahab blows a supermarket to bits. I believe thats where the female suicide bombers are coming from. After all, daughters are cheap. For that reason alone I'd pave over the West Bank and shoot every one I could find. The only fault I can find with the Israelis is that their taking too long. I agree. I have been to Israel recently.I watched the PM speak. There were suicide bombers when I was there. The arabs want Israel gone. End of story. not moved back but destroyed. Kill them all and let Alah As to 130 billion to Israel what did we buy? Actually there were Congressional hearings not too long ago, in which a US general testified that some of our most cutting age warfare technology comes from Israel. ie AWACS i think. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 2:55:06 PM EDT
[#30]
Listen to you guys!
IF you grew up in Palestine (and I base this on what I think I know about you), you'd first: 1. ..fight to create a democratic Palestinian Government. 2. ...Ensure that there were the same freedoms that the US enjoys (speech, arms, religion, etc..) 3. ...you'd teach your children that they are worth more to you alive than dead. 4. ...You'd then try to make a go at feeding your families, and succeeding in life. 5. ...You'd speak out against idiots who want to destroy your society, by encouraging your children to kill themselves. Then you'd wake up one morning and find that Palestine was a safe and prosperous trading partner of the West AND Israel. FROM WHAT YOU GUYS HAVE SAID HERE, FOR THE PAST YEAR OR SO, I'm convinced that that's what you'd do. You WOULD NOT be desperate and suicidal. Which of those things would ISRAEL try to prevent from happening? |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 3:28:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Listen to you guys! IF you grew up in Palestine (and I base this on what I think I know about you), you'd first: 1. ..fight to create a democratic Palestinian Government. 2. ...Ensure that there were the same freedoms that the US enjoys (speech, arms, religion, etc..) 3. ...you'd teach your children that they are worth more to you alive than dead. 4. ...You'd then try to make a go at feeding your families, and succeeding in life. 5. ...You'd speak out against idiots who want to destroy your society, by encouraging your children to kill themselves. Then you'd wake up one morning and find that Palestine was a safe and prosperous trading partner of the West AND Israel. FROM WHAT YOU GUYS HAVE SAID HERE, FOR THE PAST YEAR OR SO, I'm convinced that that's what you'd do. You WOULD NOT be desperate and suicidal. Which of those things would ISRAEL try to prevent from happening? Well, Murph, unfortunately I'd really disagree with you. If you took any of us as we are here and now and put us in that situation, you'd be right, I'm sure. However, people are *made* into who they are as they grow up to some extent, and certainly those in Palestine trained to kill themselves and thereby disobey every mental and physical survival instinct we possess are a prime example of that. Despite what some want to believe, we are basically all the same genetically. Ordinary people can be trained (indoctrinated or brainwashed, as it were) to become torturers, killers, or even suicide bombers. It's not all that hard, really. The middle-east, and I believe fundamentalist/extremist Muslims, creates the exact kind of conditions to make suicide bombers out of ordinary people. Plus, I would guess that with the temperament demonstrated by many involved in these discussions here, we'd have a larger than average number of very passionate "revolutionary soldiers" and "martyrs" on our hands if in a similar situation. BTW, that's one difference between the Israelis and the extremist Pals- the former are willing to kill to defend themselves and maintain their security, the latter are willing to kill to further their political goals. And I *do* think it's the result of a difference in physical and cultural environment, in circumstances, if you will. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 3:36:34 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: If I were a Palestinian that had nothing to do with suicide-bombings and such, I would certainly be a militant by now. If tanks rolled through my neighborhood, troops started "occupying" my property, killing my neighbors, and rounding up and detaining the males in my area, I'd certainly be a militant by now, even if I didn't start off as one. [(:|)] The truth is that if I were Palestinian I would be doing what the Palestinians are doing and if I were Israeli I would be doing what the Israelis are doing. Same, probably. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 6:23:45 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If I were a Palestinian that had nothing to do with suicide-bombings and such, I would certainly be a militant by now. If tanks rolled through my neighborhood, troops started "occupying" my property, killing my neighbors, and rounding up and detaining the males in my area, I'd certainly be a militant by now, even if I didn't start off as one. [(:|)] The truth is that if I were Palestinian I would be doing what the Palestinians are doing and if I were Israeli I would be doing what the Israelis are doing. Same, probably. Okay, so to wrap up a dying thread I'd just like to review: Here we have three supposedly rational people more or less admitting they'd be willing to commit infanticide if they were Palestinians. I tried to clarify if these people were actually saying what they appeared to be saying - that the would "certainly" and "probably" become just as sociopathically militant as the Palestinians are, but to no avail. Apparently these folks are comfortable in admitting they would "do what the Palestinians are doing", which would have to include strapping dynamite to their very own children and instructing them to detonate it in a grocery store to purposefully kill other innocent children... ...beeeeeecuuuuuse they don't have any soveriegn nation to call home? Wonderful. A day or so ago another thread was locked because of all the quasi-pedophiles who were defending the notion of barely-adolescent teens having sex. Now we have a bunch of suicide-bomber apologists here who, if raised in the same situation, wouldn't have the basic sense to know that actually targetting and purposefully dismembering infants is just pure evil. I asked some of these scumbags here for clarification of their views, but got nothing but a "stop calling me names you bully!" type of response. It's a sickening shame that folks here think they'd be so easily brainwashed by living in the Palestinians situation so as to want to devour your own children and the children of your enemies just to score some political points. Do any of you even HAVE any children?? |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 6:56:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Ordinary people can be trained (indoctrinated or brainwashed, as it were) to become torturers, killers, or even suicide bombers. In my case, I hope two out of three would be adequate. Hehe. ---------------------------------------------- As an aside I'm surprised no one noticed/responded to this: Quoted: BETHLEHEM, West Bank -- Demolished cars lined the narrow streets of Bethlehem. Shutters were ripped from the shops. And inside the homes, where frightened residents huddled for a second day, the dead shared space with the wounded. In one small house, a woman named Fatheyeh Mousa wailed for help to get a dead man's body removed from her kitchen. [red]She did not know the man. He was named Abdel Khader Abu Ahmad, he told her, and came from a Palestinian refugee camp in neighboring Jordan. But he was wounded during the early hours of the Israeli invasion Tuesday morning and the family took him in. [/red]With no ambulances allowed on the streets, he died on a thin mat on her kitchen floor. Um, does this mean he was there shopping at the mall? Visiting relatives? On a pilgrimmage? My guess is he was a freakin' terrorist who got wounded and was given aid and comfort by one of the "innocent" Palestinian families being brutalized by the Israeli's. Hmmmmmm |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 7:27:34 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Okay, so to wrap up a dying thread I'd just like to review: Here we have three supposedly rational people more or less admitting they'd be willing to commit infanticide if they were Palestinians. That's odd. I don't remember anyone here endorsing infanticide, just like I don't remember saying (and I quote): [i]"I would do the same thing as Palestinian militants are - but I don't agree with them"[/i] The_Macallan, you are putting words into peoples' mouths that they never said. If you're going to misquote and misrepresent people, at least don't do it where the words they [u]actually[/u] said are printed above. No one, and I mean [b]no one[/b] in the posts above was "admitting they'd be willing to commit infanticide". And I never said, "I would do the same thing as Palestinian militants are - but I don't agree with them" like you [b]quoted[/b] me as saying. [(:|)] |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 8:09:40 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: That's odd. I don't remember anyone here endorsing infanticide, just like I don't remember saying (and I quote): [i]"I would do the same thing as Palestinian militants are - but I don't agree with them"[/i] The_Macallan, you are putting words into peoples' mouths that they never said. If you're going to misquote and misrepresent people, at least don't do it where the words they [u]actually[/u] said are printed above. No one, and I mean [b]no one[/b] in the posts above was "admitting they'd be willing to commit infanticide". And I never said, "I would do the same thing as Palestinian militants are - but I don't agree with them" like you [b]quoted[/b] me as saying. Okay, let's clear your side of the board. I've already done this once but you ignored it and instead focused on me calling names and hurting your feelings. Let's see if you can keep on track this time. Posted By PoliticalScience (1st post): "[b]If I were a Palestinian[/b] that had nothing to do with suicide-bombings and such, [b]I would [u]certainly[/u] be a militant by now[/b]" [emphasis mine] Posted By PoliticalScience (2st post): "[b]I never said I supported one side or the other[/b], I was giving a reason why the Palestinians might become militant." [emphasis mine] My parenthetical quote "I would do the same thing as Palestinian militants are - but I don't agree with them" is a [u]paraphrase[/u] of the two statements above. Just how can you reconcile these two statements you made? One saying you would "certainly" become a militant Palestinian (you sound like a terrorist sympathizer) and the other saying you "never" supported one side or the other. Next item: Infantacide. 1) Militant Palestinians use dynamite-laden children to kill other children. 2) You proclaim "If I were a Palestinian that had nothing to do with suicide-bombings and such, I would certainly be a militant by now." 3) Some other folks chime in and agree. You don't see how this makes it look like y'all are siding with (or at least sympathizing with) these sick psychopathic killers? [b]PoliticalScience[/b], I give most folks here a little ribbing now and then (and get it back too) and most folks take it in stride. But you come off as a tweedy, easily-offended stodge . You sound sincere enough in your discussions, but you just got to lighten up - and when you're called on a blunder, just clarify it and move on. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 8:46:52 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
[url]http://noreno.no-ip.com:800/israel/spread_of_islam.jpg[/url] Excellent, thanks a lot for that map and the other info. I've wanted some good info like that for a while. People always stare at me with a blank look on their face when I talk about the battle of tours. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 8:49:48 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: You sound sincere enough in your discussions, but you just got to lighten up - and when you're called on a blunder, just clarify it and move on. Really? Which blunder was I called on? It's not like I misquoted anyone or accused anyone incorrectly of infanticide. [(:|)] |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 9:00:16 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Quoted: You sound sincere enough in your discussions, but you just got to lighten up - and when you're called on a blunder, just clarify it and move on. Really? Which blunder was I called on? It's not like I misquoted anyone or accused anyone incorrectly of infanticide. No - really. You MUST get your myopia fixed. You're embarrassing yourself now. Sorry to say, but you actually missed my entire post, explanations and all. Somehow you were only able to see the final sentence. [>:/] Makes me think there's more than just a visual disturbance going on "up there". [%|] Seek help. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 9:04:40 PM EDT
[#40]
Actually, the problem is that the children are being indoctrinated at a young age while they are impressionable. You could take a 4 y/o kid and make into a robber, murderer, terrorist, or politican all by shaping his mind as a young child.
If Israel wishes to end the war, they must shutdown the terroist camps and schools. The PLO/Hamas must lose their means of warping the minds of young children. Hell, just take their kids and raise them away from Palestine so they aren't raised to be suicide bombers. Your ethics are a product of how you are raised. If you are raised in a religious home and there are no outside influences (friends, dealers, etc...) trying to influence you...you will grow up to be a very religious person. But, if you are raised in a home where your parents bitch about the oppression, your brothers become suicide bombers, your friends have posters of suicide bombers on their walls, and you are sent to a school where you are taught that your people are oppressed and that Israelis are invaders who must be destroyed, you will likely become a terrorist. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 9:05:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: [b]PoliticalScience[/b], I give most folks here a little ribbing now and then (and get it back too) and most folks take it in stride. But you come off as a tweedy, easily-offended stodge . You sound sincere enough in your discussions, but you just got to lighten up - and when you're called on a blunder, just clarify it and move on. Yeah, move on. Here's a guy who, like everybody else, grew up with his own church, his own god, his own country and cannot possibly know what he'd do if he was born into a Palestinian family. Oh sure, if The_Macallan were Palestinian we'd hear about his moral values and his views on sanctity of life, or maybe we wouldn't. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 9:12:45 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Really? Which blunder was I called on? It's not like I misquoted anyone or accused anyone incorrectly of infanticide.[(:|)] The blunder is Mac's for assuming that anything one Palestinian militant does is something they all do (or that we would do if born to that life). The majority seem to be gunmen who stand out in the middle of the road, firing ineffectively at Israeli armor. They have not all blown up civilians in Israel or killed a settler. Israelis have done some pretty outrageous things as well, and whatever the ratio between Pals and Israelis is for the despicable, I don't think that means that all of their fighting is beyond the pale. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 9:31:51 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: The blunder is Mac's for assuming that anything one Palestinian militant does is something they all do (or that we would do if born to that life). The majority seem to be gunmen who stand out in the middle of the road, firing ineffectively at Israeli armor. They have not all blown up civilians in Israel or killed a settler. Israelis have done some pretty outrageous things as well, and whatever the ratio between Pals and Israelis is for the despicable, I don't think that means that all of their fighting is beyond the pale. Absolutely. The point I was trying to make was that your average Palestinian is going to get pissed when tanks start parking themselves outside his house, a curfew is imposed on him, and his neighbors are getting killed, [u]all because some asshole that lived down the street blew himself up[/u]. That certainly doesn't make every Palestinian a terrorist. I was just trying to explain why they might do the things they do. I was not taking sides. And how in the world that explanation makes me guilty of "infanticide", afflicted with myopia, and quoted of things I never said is anyone's guess. [(:|)] |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 9:58:21 PM EDT
[#44]
shooter69 -
The blunder I was pointing out was that y'all were so quick to say you'd probably become a militant too - without saying what that all entailed. Given the current rash of militant bombings taken place, proclaiming such a blanket statement hypothetically associating yourself with the militants SHOULD have been more clearly stated. I tried to get that clarification from PS, first with just a gentle nudge, then with more and more prodding. He never understood. Probably still doesn't. Unabashedly saying you'd probably be a militant too, given the utter depths to which [u]more and more of them[/u] are sinking (suicide/infanticide), is tantamount to saying you'd probably be a Nazi Stormtrooper too if you were a German in 1940 - and leaving it at that. It necessitates a clarification and, if not, a right-proper flaming. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 10:24:22 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: shooter69 - The blunder I was pointing out was that y'all were so quick to say you'd probably become a militant too - without saying what that all entailed. Given the current rash of militant bombings taken place, proclaiming such a blanket statement hypothetically associating yourself with the militants SHOULD have been more clearly stated. I tried to get that clarification from PS, first with just a gentle nudge, then with more and more prodding. He never understood. Probably still doesn't. Unabashedly saying you'd probably be a militant too, given the utter depths to which [u]more and more of them[/u] are sinking (suicide/infanticide), is tantamount to saying you'd probably be a Nazi Stormtrooper too if you were a German in 1940 - and leaving it at that. It necessitates a clarification and, if not, a right-proper flaming. Obviously, when communicating through a message board, there are things that are lost. If you had clearly asked me to elaborate about what I meant by "militant", I would have. You didn't. Your reply was to call me "myopic", and instead, you conjected that our definitions included infanticide. That was a broad and inaccurate leap. Let me make it clear for you: I imagine most Palestinians, like most Israelis simply want to live their lives in peace, raising families and enjoying life. Since [u]some[/u] of the Palestinian have blown themselves up in suicide bombings, naturally, the Israelis will become defensive. Now the part where I sympathize, is when the average, non-suicide-bombing, non-terrorist, Palestinian man is forced to remain in his home (at risk of being shot) with tanks parked outside his house, with the real possibility that Israeli troops will rummage through his house and/or detain or arrest him. If I had done nothing wrong, and that happened to me (and most other members here), I would tend to get "militant". I don't take kindly to heavy-handed abusive government, especially when I personally had done nothing wrong. What do I mean by militant? Possibly taking up arms against the troops that are oppressing me, but certainly not infanticide. Like I said, it's a theoretical rationalization on my part, since I am not in that situation right now. But I never took sides in this post, just tried to explain why some Palestinians might do what they do. [(:|)] |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 10:33:55 PM EDT
[#46]
Ok, but wouldn't you have become militant towards your "neighbors" [u]long before this[/u] if you knew they were planning terrorist actions right from your own neighborhood? Freedom of movement is probably heavily restricted for Palestinians there so you'd be stuck there living next to terrorists. I'd have thought (and stated such in my first reply) that one should have become militant WAY BEFORE the tanks are forced to park in your driveway. And direct that militancy towards rooting out the suicidal psychopaths down the street, not fighting the Israeli forces coming after those terrorists. |
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Posted: 4/5/2002 10:57:42 PM EDT
[#47]
I would probably go militant on the bomber if I known about him. From what I've read, Hamas and most terrorists try to conduct themselves secretly. But if you think the "militantism", if you will, should be directed at the actual terrorists, then I think the Israelis would do well to direct their actions against the actual terrorists also, and not just the innocent Palestinians, who are really the ones paying the price for the egregious actions of a few.
My argument is not that Israel shouldn't defend itself, my argument is that I think they are directing their actions at a lot of innocent Palestinians, and that doing so will only create more resentment towards Israel. It's sort of a chicken-egg thing. From what I understand, the Mosaad is very good at what they do, and I think it's within their capabilities to "tactically" remove (read assassinate) the terrorist elements, without punishing the innocents. [(:|)] |
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Posted: 4/6/2002 6:41:33 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: I would probably go militant on the bomber if I known about him. From what I've read, Hamas and most terrorists try to conduct themselves secretly. But if you think the "militantism", if you will, should be directed at the actual terrorists, then I think the Israelis would do well to direct their actions against the actual terrorists also, and not just the innocent Palestinians, who are really the ones paying the price for the egregious actions of a few. My argument is not that Israel shouldn't defend itself, my argument is that I think they are directing their actions at a lot of innocent Palestinians, and that doing so will only create more resentment towards Israel. It's sort of a chicken-egg thing. From what I understand, the Mosaad is very good at what they do, and I think it's within their capabilities to "tactically" remove (read assassinate) the terrorist elements, without punishing the innocents. [(:|)] Good morning. This situation is *way* more complicated and not at all easily solveable with a few well-placed assassinatins. The suicide bombers are a small handful our of hundreds of thousands of Pals, are hard to find, yet they have an impact that is way beyond their numbers. They trigger a reaction that affects the entire region and many people not directly involved. That's the point of terror, isn't it? To force a repressive response (increase the "oppression"), to increase the resentment and anger of non-combatants, and thereby put pressure on the political process. The reality for the average person on the street or in the camps is one of increasing discomfort, such as restrictions in travel, shortages of essential goods, day-to-day harrassment and so on. When that pressure on the average people continues and is severe, more "martyrs" are created. A vicious circle, really... My point: I'm quite sure we would see ourselves as justified in our actions, and would describe ourselves as "patriots" and "freedom fighters" if we were in similar situation. It's really interesting to me in another sense: the parallel is the American "patriot" movement, but without all the killing and stuff. [:)] We're much too comfortable to actually take the role of "freedom fighters", but could see how if the circumstances were right. How many of us here have read "Unintended Consequences" and thought it could happen here? But that is OT and perhaps a discussion for another thread. |
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