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Posted: 4/4/2002 3:22:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 3:28:18 PM EDT by warlord]
Ft Irwin National Training Center is one place that the US Army can fire is biggest guns at maximum elevation. The huge base is in the middle of the Mojave Desert about 120 miles east of L.A. ========================================================= [url]http://www.desertdispatch.com/cgi-bin/newspro/viewnews.cgi?newsid1017941261,37157,[/url] Missing gun forces lock-down on Fort Irwin By TAMMY J. SCHOLL/Staff Writer BARSTOW — Commanders have restricted some 240 Fort Irwin soldiers to their unit area and placed more stringent restrictions on 90 others in an effort to recover a 9 mm pistol reported missing a week ago. Some 90 soldiers from the 1st squad of the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment were remanded to squadron classrooms Tuesday. “These 90 (soldiers) are the ones that unit identified as the ones most likely to have had access to the arms room when the weapon when missing,” said Maj. Rob Ali, Fort Irwin spokesman. “Keeping them together impresses upon them the seriousness of the incident and the need for them to come forward if they have information. Everyone wants to see this thing resolved and have the weapon returned.” The 90 soldiers are getting three pre-packaged meals a day, are free to make phone calls and can have their families visit them, Ali said. They are being questioned by investigators and have access to an amnesty point, where the pistol can be anonymously deposited. Ali said the action came almost a week after a routine check of the unit’s inventory revealed the pistol was missing. Commanders, in accordance with the U.S. Army’s standard operating procedures, confined all 330 members to the unit’s area which includes administrative offices, the barracks, and the supply room. “When you discover an item like this missing, you don’t release people and say we will figure it out tomorrow,” Ali explained. “You take the necessary and prudent steps to restrict the unit and impress upon (them) the seriousness of the situation. This is a prudent measure to safeguard and regain accountability of Army property entrusted to us. The Army and Fort Irwin take this very seriously.” Ali said restricting soldiers to their unit area is part of the military’s routine procedure when a weapon is reported missing. But it is rare that weapons or other sensitive item cannot be found. “What is important is that unit commanders value and enforce the accountability of sensitive items,” he said. “These weapons are trusted to him as commander. They (members of the unit) need to come forward with the weapon or any information they have so we can resolve this matter and they can go home.” The unit’s captain, squadron commander, the squadron’s executive officer and command sergeant major have opted to stay with the soldiers from the start of the lock-down to demonstrate their support, Ali said. With 90 soldiers now confined to the squadron classroom, some 240 are still remanded to their unit area. -- continued --
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 3:24:17 PM EDT
“They are starting to get really cranky and my husband is fed up with this,” she said. “They can’t do anything but wait. They have no idea who did this. Here I am alone and I’m pregnant and we have a little girl.” Mandy Rozell, 24, said those in charge are taking things too far. “My husband said all of his unit was forced to stand at formation from 5 p.m. to midnight on Easter night,” she said, “because the commanders were waiting for someone to confess.” Rozell’s said the soldiers can’t read, watch TV, or listen to music. “They are confined to their work space,” she said. “They sleep in their sleeping bags behind their desks. They are not allowed to go their barracks. They are escorted to showers and the bathroom. There are only two showers for 312 people.” Ali said the inconvenience for soldiers’ families is regrettable. “The unit commanders want to reunite the families as quickly as possible,” he said. Some officers were permitted to leave the base Monday night to see a movie at a Victorville theater. Ali said the trip was part of a scheduled training event. “The unit’s regular training scheduled is being adhered to,” he said. “Part of that included a planned trip. They were studying the book called “We Were Soldiers Once and Young.” The film “We Were Soldiers Once” was based on that book, which is on the mandatory professional military reading lists for its study of small unit tactics. The movie is based on it, which is part of studying it. It was a previously scheduled training event and they felt it was necessary to follow through with it.” Ali said the lock-down has caused many people to complain to the Inspector General’s office. “Some of the complaints were looked into by our IG’s office,” he said. “ They have found no improprieties.” Other soldier’s wives said they are disgusted to hear the soldiers and their wives “whining” about the lock-down. “This is the Army’s procedure,” said Nayrobi Tea, wife of Sgt. Sovan Tea. “I feel that they should not be calling themselves soldiers — complaining the way they have been — when they know their fellow Americans are fighting a battle against terrorists.” She said the Army would be negligent if it did not take swift action to prevent a possible tragedy. “They don’t know if someone is using that gun to hurt someone else or for some other use,” Tea said. “What else would someone steal a weapon for? It cannot be for anything good. The Army has acted correctly.” Copyright © 2002 Desert Dispatch
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 3:27:24 PM EDT
When you said "missing gun" I thought you you were talking bout a gun proper - you know... an artillery piece. In the Army a "gun" refers to a cannon. An M9 would be known as a "pistol" or a "weapon". A No-Go (National Guard) unit might be capable of losing an artillery piece. You never know! The only other interpretation would lead one to believe that a soldier lost his penis. In which case he would have been promoted to the rank of Brigadier General.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 3:34:53 PM EDT
Back when I was in (88-92) They would inventory every time the arms room was opened, for any reason. There were many times we went into lock down after coming out of the field, because something was missing, be it NODS, a bayonet, Rifle, radio, etc. I don't believe anything ever came up missing permanently though. once we had a guy's ruck bounce off the back of a Hummvee, which had a pair of ANPVS-7's in it. we were locked down for a couple of days, then an honest citizen turned it in to the MP's. He probably turned it in sooner than that, but I assume it had to go through the entire Division chain, before they figured out where it belonged. Personally, I don't know that I would have been as noble myself- I'd have probably kept them, if I were that Civilian. Anyway, the point to this whole ramble is this: HOW THE HECK DOES A PISTOL COME UP MISSING FOR A FREAKIN WEEK BEFORE ANYONE NOTICES?? AIRBORNE!!!
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 3:45:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Schnert: When you said "missing gun" I thought you you were talking bout a gun proper - you know... an artillery piece. In the Army a "gun" refers to a cannon. An M9 would be known as a "pistol" or a "weapon". A No-Go (National Guard) unit might be capable of losing an artillery piece. You never know! The only other interpretation would lead one to believe that a soldier lost his penis. In which case he would have been promoted to the rank of Brigadier General.
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funny you should say that. My Guard unit was called up to secure the Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station right after 09-11. After three weeks we were released and we went back to our Armory. We took an inventory and we were missing a pair of night vision goggles. We were locked down and the admin people and commander asked everybody where they were at. One person remebered stowing them under the seat of Humvee 23A. Someone ran out and checked the motor pool, came back and said 23A wasn't in the motor pool. After checking with the mechanics and supply, it was discovered that 2nd Platoon (thank god I am a member of 4th) had forgetton the Humvee back at Palo Verde, so they had a team take a Humvee back there and found it in the parking lot where we left it, NVG was in the seat where it was left.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 3:57:28 PM EDT
Why would anyone want to get in all that trouble for stealing a 9mm! I can understand if it was like a H&K socom pistol or a Ar15 or a Mp5 but a beretta you can pick one of those up for a few hundred and I amagine the pistol had been very used right?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:02:24 PM EDT
This is how we are treating our fighting men? Like a bunch of high school kids? These are adults and we are paying them to be ready and go give up their lives for our freedom. We should treat them like professionals. Its too bad the pistol got stolen. They should conduct a good investigation. They should come down hard on the SOB who took it. Giving a "time out" to the unit is sorry management. This type of BS is the reason I got out of the Army after my first enlistment.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:09:33 PM EDT
All this effort for a $400 pistol but yet we're still not sure about the US Navy Pilot Michael Speicher who ejected during the Gulf War and may still be alive in Iraq! Somethin aint right!
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:19:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 4:22:29 PM EDT by Schnert]
Flash66, It's standard SOP to go into lockdown when a sensitive item is missing. Back in the Reagan days the Army fielded an encryption/decrption device called a VICTOR(sp?). They simply attached to a standard radio and allowed commanders to communicate quickly over a "secure" net without using code. The device rarely worked, so many commanders disregarded proceedure and had them removed. Some Schwantzkopf 1LT type general's aide forgot to remount the device when the vehicles were turned in. Our company was lockeddown until it was found... in his duffle bag. We also lost an M1911A1 once. Some dickhead MAJ simply tossed it into his flyers' kit bag before leaving post for a few quick ones. Can you say "Bye Bye OER?" Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that a lot of our GI's are worse than your average high schoolers. That's why good NCO's are always one step ahead of their soldiers. An E-3 who just got paid can raise a lot of he!!. As my buddy "Taz" used to say: I got me a pocket full of Jacksons and I'm gonna get me phucked clean up! Ah yes Infantry!
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:24:15 PM EDT
When I was at Ft. Hood in 1996 I think, a M2 went missing in the 1st Cav Division. Apparently it was sitting on top of an Abrams, and the crew walked away from the tank for a few minutes. When they came back, the M2 was gone, never to be seen again. From what I understand, a CWO got relieved, and the entire division was locked down for a week or two.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:33:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By urodoji: When I was at Ft. Hood in 1996 I think, a M2 went missing in the 1st Cav Division. Apparently it was sitting on top of an Abrams, and the crew walked away from the tank for a few minutes. When they came back, the M2 was gone, never to be seen again. From what I understand, a CWO got relieved, and the entire division was locked down for a week or two.
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M2?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:38:23 PM EDT
Back in the day they cared about bayonets, weapons, protectives masks etc., but they didn't give two craps and a stroke about mags. When I ETSed I had a footlocker full of Colt 20 rounders. I subsequently sold them to buddies for $3 each. A few years later Klinton is elected and I'm left kicking my own butt!
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:44:53 PM EDT
M2 ma deuce 50 cal machine gun
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:57:02 PM EDT
A Marine in my brothers reserve unit stole his gas mask. He had to leave some of his gear behind in a vehicle. He came back an hour later and it was gone. Another Corpsman gave him a mask that he "found". Next drill weekend my brother Chief wanted blood apparently someone had stolen his mask the previous drill.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:30:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 6:32:03 PM EDT by AndyTN]
I guess that I've been very lucky... Never had anyone of my soldiers lose a sensitive item - ever. Like the other guys are saying, it's a bitch if you do. Did happen to a guy I knew from the old days. Former Sergeant. He'd just gotten through OCS and his Basic Course (Field Artillery), and took off on an FTX. For some reason, he threw his M9 and holster in a red metal storage box, locked it with a padlock (the box was in the middle of the Battery FDC) and split to the rear to get something done. When he got back: busted lock, empty box...unit locked down forever and a day...still no pistol. That guy's selling shoes now, I think. But FA guys are always doing something screwy. A few years ago, I heard about some FA BN types who had really screwed up. Apparently, a couple of 13B's (cannon-cocker types) and the Chief of Smoke decided they were going to burn off excess white bags (propellant for 155mm rounds). Guess they hadn't done it before, because they forgot two things: 1) Park your friggin' HMMWV far enough away from the flames, and... 2) Make sure that you pull all the bags out of the HMMWV if you're so stupid as to park it within 10 feet of where you're going to burn powder! If you've never seen this before, it's an amazing thing to witness. Flames shoot VERY high in the air, and it's hotter than hell. End result? A Report of Survey from hell, a 15-6 investigation on everyone and everything, Safety Center visit, and one completely melted HMMWV. By the way, schnert...you're referring to a VINSON device. KYK-13?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:43:30 PM EDT
naaah, he cant be refering to a KYK-13, the "kick-13" is the little doohickey that is used to load the variable into the KG-84 and a KG is not exactly a highly mobile device. humvee mounted maybe, or run on a bed mounted hi-freq. thats about all i can say without compromising sensitive info. BUT ANYWAY, theres no such thing as "missing gear" its all cyclical, sometimes you "aquire" gear sometimes someone else "aquires" your gear. rediculously stupid to try it with a weapon, compass, NVD, bayonet, T&E etc. mags are not a controlled item (WOOHOO) once at 29palms at the Camp Wilson airfield i was helping the wiredogs look for a break in the wire. i was alone in a humvee and on the backside of the airfield. not another human being for miles!, i could see empty space in every direction. i pulled over at a port-a-jon to go #1. i laid my flak and kevlar on the hood, put on my boonie cover and went in the flimy fiberglass cocoon. no more than 1 minute later i emerged and they were GONE! no fresh vehicle tracks, no foot tracks nothing.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 1:46:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/5/2002 1:48:42 AM EDT by pogo]
It really got me to thinking about those 105's they used to leave 50' off the highway - with no gateguards and noone (?) watching. Would they miss only one of them? I used to see them frequently when driving through to Delta, Alaska. EDIT: It really cracked me up to see what fuss the Navy gave about a missing round of ammo. If I took it during a drill, I would add it to the several surplus ammo cases I had at home.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 4:43:38 AM EDT
HOW THE HECK DOES A PISTOL COME UP MISSING FOR A FREAKIN WEEK BEFORE ANYONE NOTICES??
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Exactly. Also, shouldn't they know to whom that pistol was assigned? Most likely it was an officer or a senior NCO. [;)]
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 6:38:19 AM EDT
I worked as a contractor up at Letterkenny Army Depot (LEAD)a couple years back. THey store and demil. a lot of ammo (shells, mortars, rockets, etc.) up there. One time, they had one of the DoD agencies(Army Audit Agency (AAA) or one of the others, I forgot which one now) come up and take inventory. They came up short on a few cases of rockets and grenades. I was actually kind of suprised because nobody was really going apeshit like I would have expected. Of course these people were all Army civilian employees, so you probably can't do a lock down or anything like that because it would violate their rights.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 7:06:02 AM EDT
The VINSON was the KY-57. When added to a vehicle mounted VRC-12 (or VRC-46) radio, the whole setup became the VRC-47. The KYK-13 or 15 loaded it, or a KG-84, or a KY-58 (UHF version of the KY-57). We were locked down for a few hours once. Just back from the field, some of our motor pool guys left an M8A1 chemical detector unsecured. Our CI Agents were searching the barracks for it (and ignoring the huge quantities of post-field, unauthorized booze already in plain sight) when the CSM of the Engineer unit that shared our motor pool brought it back. SOme of his more enterprising Privates saw it sitting out, and thought it would be cool to have a spare. Thankfully for us, they didn't keep their discovery to themselves, and told their Platoon Sergeant. My understanding was that the whole thing was handled by butt-chewings and no paperwork. Try that in today's armed forces. Lock-downs for missing equipment are standard, and probably always will be.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 7:38:28 AM EDT
Thanks, Natez - I had forgotten most of that stuff, as my mind is now occupied with ANCD's and the like - and I just LOVE SINCGARS. I have to disagree with you one point, however. The NCO Chain is still alive and well, and always will be (God willing). It may not be as prevalent in CS and CSS units (was it ever?), but "NCO Justice" still runs my unit. In fact, my first sergeant always asks my ne'er do wells, "Do you wanna pay me, or pay the Old Man?"
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 7:46:25 AM EDT
I am continually amazed at the number of personnel wh apparently subscribe to the belief that if the Army/Navy/Marines/Air Force won't go apeshit and launch a huge investigation, then it is alright for me to steal it. Since the ban, M-16 mags seem to be high on the list of things it is okay to "liberate." I want to puke every time I read on one of these boards a post from a serviceman basically bragging about all the 20/30 rounders he stole.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 8:25:14 AM EDT
In 89' during war games in Canada, someone in my unit lost a boresight device off the back of an M1. We walked all over camp Wainright for a week, and never did find it. I'm sure it is hanging over some canuk's fireplace right now. The Army loves fervently believes in group punishment.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 8:26:55 AM EDT
Golgo 13: mags are expendible items, meaning that they are not controlled and are equivalent to toilet paper in the supply chain. Most of the mags 'liberated' actually needed to be retired by the unit armorer-I know, I used to be one. I encourgaged the troops to keep 7 each for themselves (6 for pouches, 1 for weapon). The unit's supply of mags (maintained by me) were new in the wrapper, and were kept for rainy day (read war, deployment, etc). Liberating a weapon, a gas mask, etc is not the same as liberating mags. Did I mention that my HUMMV was liberated from the AF on the way back from DS. We later installed a tape deck, speakers, and an A/C unit off of a canabilized ambulance HUMMV. Those were the good days!
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 9:17:25 AM EDT
While on TDY to Panama from Fort Benning (988th MP). We had two guys on guard duty (we were in apartments in Corundu, off post), one guy gets up to take a leak, the other was "resting". They got a 9MM taken from them. We had to remain down there an extra week. Pistol never showed up and the E-6 that was taking a leak never came back to Benning....(Don't think he was an E6 after that) I was also sent to Homestead, FLA for hurricane Andrew security, the rumor was, that an infantry guy at a checkpoint had his m16 removed from him at gunpoint(He wasn't issued any ammo) by a local gang. One more thing, As an MP if you lost one of your pistol or rifle rounds that was issued for Patrol, you better have an alibi round or you lost some of your pay and time off, maybe even rank.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 9:19:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BYU: Golgo 13: mags are expendible items, meaning that they are not controlled and are equivalent to toilet paper in the supply chain. Most of the mags 'liberated' actually needed to be retired by the unit armorer-I know, I used to be one. I encourgaged the troops to keep 7 each for themselves (6 for pouches, 1 for weapon). The unit's supply of mags (maintained by me) were new in the wrapper, and were kept for rainy day (read war, deployment, etc). Liberating a weapon, a gas mask, etc is not the same as liberating mags. Did I mention that my HUMMV was liberated from the AF on the way back from DS. We later installed a tape deck, speakers, and an A/C unit off of a canabilized ambulance HUMMV. Those were the good days!
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I served in the military myself, so I am aware that M-16 magazines are expendable. That doesn't make it okay to steal an assload of them. Would it be okay to take twenty or thirty rolls of toilet paper? How about 20 or 30 boxes of pens (ink sticks to you jarheads)? How about a few cases of MRE's? This seems to me to be the same mentality that lets people rationalize stealing office supplies or other small goods from their civilian employers.
Link Posted: 4/5/2002 10:37:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911greg: Why would anyone want to get in all that trouble for stealing a 9mm! I can understand if it was like a H&K socom pistol or a Ar15 or a Mp5 but a beretta you can pick one of those up for a few hundred and I amagine the pistol had been very used right?
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Really where can you get one for a few hundred? I doubt you could find a beat up used one for that price.
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