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Posted: 4/4/2002 9:26:55 AM EDT
[url]http://vancouver.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=9051&group=webcast[/url] Split widens over Israeli reservists A decision by more than 100 Israeli reserve officers to refuse to serve in the Palestinian territories has sparked a furious row inside the military, and a widening public debate. In the biggest challenge to the army's authority since the Palestinian uprising began 16 months ago, the reservists have said they are not willing to fight for the purpose of "dominating, expelling, starving and humiliating an entire people". We reserve combat soldiers and officers say the decision is in our hands - we are already more than 100. This in turn has prompted a strong counter campaign, and a suggestion by the army's chief of staff that there are political motives behind the protest, which would amount to incitement to rebellion. A former head of Israel's internal security service, Ami Ayalon, has given his support to their protest, saying he is very concerned about the large number of unarmed Palestinian children shot by Israeli troops. In an interview with Israeli television, he said that, as far as he was concerned, not enough soldiers were refusing to obey what he called blatantly illegal orders. But he added that refusing to serve in the West Bank and Gaza was not the answer. Military service is compulsory in Israel, and men are required to serve in the reserves for over a month each year until well into middle age unless they have a special exemption.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:28:24 AM EDT
[url]http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/01/28/News/News.42407.html[/url] Reservists' refuse to serve in 'war for peace of settlements' By Tovah Lazaroff JERUSALEM (January 28) - The public announcement of about 50 IDF reservists to refuse to serve in Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza Strip drew both criticism and praise from politicians yesterday. The combat reservists, some of who are officers who have served in the reserves for over 10 years, published a letter in Hebrew newspapers and spoke at length last week with Yediot Aharonot. In the letter, the reservists said that although they believe in the state and have often fought for it on the front lines of its battles, they no longer intend to "take part in the war for the peace of the settlements." "We will not continue to fight beyond the Green Line in order to rule, to expel, to destroy, to blockade, to assassinate, to starve, and to humiliate an entire people," they wrote. President Moshe Katsav answered that there is a better way for the soldiers to make their point, said his spokeswoman Hagit Cohen. "It's a free country and people can say what they like, but what would happen if tomorrow no one showed up to serve?" she asked. "It would break the army, and it would break the nation," said MK Uri Ariel (National Union-Yisrael Beiteinu). "They are making a big mistake and they need to stop this," he said. "Making headlines in the newspaper is not the way to succeed here." Politics should be played out in the Knesset rather than the army, Ariel added. But MK Tamar Gozansky (Hadash) applauded the reservists. "They are honest people who don't want to go into a hellish situation," Gozansky said. She hopes their numbers swell, pressuring the government to "stop the occupation" so that "we will have peace with secure borders." MK Mossi Raz (Meretz) supported the reservists in principle, accusing the IDF of committing "war crimes" in Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza Strip. Ironically, though, he said this is precisely why the reservists should serve there. "They should go and refuse to carry out illegal orders," he said, without elaborating. MK Ron Cohen (Meretz) said he, too, understands the reservists' feelings but feels that in this time of crisis, such public protest and refusal to serve is not productive. MK Yuval Steinitz (Likud) blamed the media for focusing on what is a familiar phenomenon of soldiers refusing to serve in contentious areas. "There is nothing new here," he said. Some soldiers refused to serve in Lebanon. "That the Israeli media decided to reemphasize or refocus on this phenomenon is odd. This is a time of crisis. There is a war against terrorism. Suddenly several people refuse to fight, and the Israeli media, instead of condemning it, is backing it," Steinitz said. Gozansky said that, had the government listened to those soldiers who protested in the early 1980s, it might have avoided the problems of Israel's prolonged presence in southern Lebanon. Peretz Kidron, a member of the 20-year-old grassroots group Yesh Gvul, has refused to serve in Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza Strip since the late 1970s. He said he was delighted by the move as he handed out fliers at the Hebrew University's Givat Ram campus, urging reservists to take similar action.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:29:20 AM EDT
Shoot them. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:34:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 9:40:45 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
Compulsory service. If we had it, there'd be thousands of people refusing.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:37:05 AM EDT
50 or 100 or so. Out of how many? 20,000? You don't think the media would play this up all out of proportion, do you?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:37:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 9:38:06 AM EDT by The_Macallan]
And we have our John Walker Lindhs and Adam Shapiros here too. Self-hating cowards come in all nationalities.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:39:51 AM EDT
What's the matter [b]SteyrAUG[/b], do you think 100 people refusing to do their duty is gonna swing the balance of power in the Middle East? Do you suspect Saddam will exploit this obvious weakness? Would you call Yasser Arafat and tell him he can stop pizzing his pants, now? Eric The(TellHimTo'ComeOnOut'MaybeHe'llListenToYou­)Hun[>]{:)]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:42:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: $133.132 billion in aid to Israel?!?! Christ, what did we buy?
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Is that including the nuclear secrets they stole?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:43:41 AM EDT
That's the Chinese.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:48:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: That's the Chinese.
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Also...you forgot the word ALSO. The Israelis have their own little spy ring going on here. Ever hear of Jonathan Pollard?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 10:20:25 AM EDT
I suppose you all hate them now, too, right?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 10:22:10 AM EDT
Gee, I've never heard of any Arab soldiers refusing to participate in a war. I wonder why not? [kill]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 10:51:06 AM EDT
Did kramrd convert to Judaism and join the IDF?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 11:14:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By trickshot: I suppose you all hate them now, too, right?
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This is an Israeli-Palestinian problem. To say that we should "hate" one group over another serves what purpose? Fact of the matter is that Americans, whether it's Lee, Pollard, or whoever, stole US secrets (yes, I believe Lee was a spy and now he's walking free) and gave them to foreign governments.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 11:39:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 11:40:43 AM EDT by Fearandloathing37]
Renamed, You say you have never heard of Arab soldiers refusing to fight? What do you call tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers walking across the desert with their hands up, the first chance they got, in Desert Storm. The minute the American Tanks showed up to play and their officers could no longer maintain control, the bulk of the Iraqi Army decided it did not want to fight en masse. Bonaparte, once said,"The test of an asian army, is with a wiff of the grape" He was'nt talking about wine.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 11:48:10 AM EDT
Gee I wonder when 100 Palestinians will say that suicide bombing civilians is wrong............. I think it will be a long wait. Again another difference betwwen the 2 sides, Israeli's see Palestinians as human and are concerned about how the Isreali government treats them. When will we hear of Palestinians concerned about how Isreali's are treated?? Oh yeah the Palestinians just killed 11 PALESTINIANS the THOUGHT were Colloborators, when the Palestinian Authourity abandoned the jails they were in.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 11:54:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aviator: Shoot them. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
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exactly !
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:04:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Fearandloathing37: Bonaparte, once said,"The test of an asian army, is with a wiff of the grape" He was'nt talking about wine.
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A decent Bonaparte paraphrase: If I had not suddenly acquired a bad cases of 'piles' and could have set my horse I wouldn't have gotten my ass kicked at Waterloo ! (I wonder how he viewed the Russians ? As Asians or Europeans ?)
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:07:57 PM EDT
These people have done one of 2 things: 1) Either they are cowards, who are afraid to fight, or 2) They are traitors who fefuse to fight becuase they sympathize with the enemy. If they are the first, then I say lock 'em up for a while. If they are the 2nd, then they should face a firing squad. Now, there are some Americans who also need to face a firing squad for treason: Bill Clinton, Jane Fonda, Johnny Walker, Most of Berkley, John McCain, etc...
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:25:42 PM EDT
Renamed, You say you have never heard of Arab soldiers refusing to fight? What do you call tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers walking across the desert with their hands up, the first chance they got, in Desert Storm.
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Making a political stand against your own government and surrendering to the enemy are two different things. Those Israeli reservists might be refusing to go the West Bank, but I bet they'd fight to their last rounds before throwing themselves on the mercy of the Arabs.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:35:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: What's the matter [b]SteyrAUG[/b], do you think 100 people refusing to do their duty is gonna swing the balance of power in the Middle East? Do you suspect Saddam will exploit this obvious weakness? Would you call Yasser Arafat and tell him he can stop pizzing his pants, now? Eric The(TellHimTo'ComeOnOut'MaybeHe'llListenToYou­)Hun[>]{:)]
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did you notice last night the sings in English "Hell No We Won't Go" and the English singing of Peace, Peace. I remember the young Jewish boys in LA in '73 who went over for the 3 day war. I would think most want this one. Who the hell are those that don't want to go?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:45:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:51:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thedave1164: And we have weekend warriors that pull the same crap.
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Shoot them as well. The nice thing about that is that you do not have to shoot all of them. Only one or two and the rest fall nicely into line and grow balls all of a sudden. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 1:13:04 PM EDT
They ought to arrest them all before they run to Canada. Why don't they just apply for a college deferment like are our Vietnam draft dodgers did. They make it so hard on themselve for nothing.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 1:18:01 PM EDT
Say, [b]Am-O-Tramp[/b], you haven't happened to see DaMan up in your neck of the woods lately? Eric The(Hmmmmmm?)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 1:31:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Say, [b]Am-O-Tramp[/b], you haven't happened to see DaMan up in your neck of the woods lately? Eric The(Hmmmmmm?)Hun[>]:)]
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What the heck is this! You were just getting on my case about not waking him up and you do this![;D]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 1:39:18 PM EDT
Eric you beeeeees DaMan, be happy, everything going to be alright. Shalom my friend. [:D]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 1:45:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aviator: Shoot them. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]
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twice....
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