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Posted: 4/4/2002 5:54:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 8:28:08 AM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
Due to an unprecedented crime wave hitting Mexico, several legislators are proposing allowing Mexican citizens the right to have guns for self defense. The would allow citizens to own semi-auto pistols smaller than 9mm and revolvers smaller than 38. And rifles no larger than 22 caliber. Of course there is opposition to allowing law-abiding citizens the right to self denfense. I have the link, however it's in Spanish. [url]http://www.univision.com/content/content.jhtml?chid=3&schid=181&secid=182&cid=101133&pagenum=1[/url] [red]edited to activate link[/red]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:42:50 AM EDT
Let's hope the pro-gun people succeed. I'm not a huge fan of .380 autos but it sure beats nothing. I know a girl from Mexico whose dad owns a ranch there. He has to use "illegal" firearms (aka Ruger 10/22) to protect his farm from varmints. Any law that makes a criminal out of a guy like that is not a good law. Maybe once they get some guns then they will legalize more varieties. -SS
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 7:15:48 AM EDT
The monarchy of mexico will never allow their peasents to be armed. Just won't happen.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 7:18:27 AM EDT
Aren't they overdue for another one of their interminable revolutions?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 7:22:34 AM EDT
7 Families own 99% of the commerce in Mexico and they own 100% of the political power. They will not allow anything to upset their applecart. Nice work if you can get it though...
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 7:50:07 AM EDT
Actually it's the uppper classes who are the targets for most of the crimes. There have been several sensational kidnappings of rich businessman over the past few years. These kidnappers are especially vicious, they cut of the ears of thier victims to show that they're serious. In rual areas people have often taken the law into their own hands. Burning thieves and rapists alive. They are tired of leniant and corrupt judges who for the right price will free anyone.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 8:02:23 AM EDT
Maybe there is hope for Mexico.z
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 8:11:46 AM EDT
Mexicans with guns, hmmmm......
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 8:12:39 AM EDT
OK. ...as long as they promise not to steal my car.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 8:17:32 AM EDT
I have obtained a translation from Spanish to English through http://[url]babel.altavista.com[/url]. Like all computer translations, the result is hilarious, but enough to get the drift of the article. [b]Controversy by the use of arms[/b] [b]Great commotion has caused in Mexico the possible use of arms[/b] Univision Online CITY OF MEXICO. - For some he is intelligent and sensible; for others, dangerous and it would only generate more violence. Thus the Mexican civil employees have reacted before the possibility that he legally allows himself the civilians to carry firearms, so that they face the public insecurity that is lived in all the country. [b]The debate [/b] The probability that the Congress allows the civil population to carry firearms, has ignited in the country an heated debate. Although, according to they have said the authorities, which is tried is that the arms are regularized that today are in secrecy, exist fears by the negative consequences that could be generated. To say of its impellers, this law has the purpose of having a strict control on the use of firearms and explosives. The initiative " is a very intelligent and very sensible decision ", assured the person in charge the public security in Mexico, Alexander Gertz Manero. " the people who good faith need to defend themselves in an insecurity situation, must have all the support of the government and the laws ". Also, she emphasized that the self-defense is a constitutional right. Nevertheless, this opinion is not shared by other civil employees. For example, the capital vicepublic prosecutor Renato Sales said that the project is counter-productive because "the violence generates violence ". "the pistolización of the Mexican society is not an answer to end the delinquency that prevails in the City of Mexico, under the pretext to safeguard the physical integrity of the families and its goods ", it affirmed in interview with the local press. In this sense the one in charge of the Secretariat of Public Security agreed, Marcelo Ebrard, because he considered that to allow people to arm itself to defend, would be equipable to that the State accepted that cannot with the problem of public insecurity. However, he recognized that the Constitution of the country guarantees the right to the legitimate self-defense. [I](to be contd.)[/I]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 8:19:07 AM EDT
[i](contd.)[/i] [b]It would cause " law of the Talión " [/b] The proposal maintains the dispositions on the calibers now allowed, that are pistols of semiautomatic operation of caliber nonsuperior to 380 (9mm), revolvers in calibers nonsuperior to 38 special and rifle 22. Legislative leaders affirmed that the proposal is a "document of work " that studies the Commission of the National defense of the House of Representatives, without still turning it into a law project that would have to transact the House of Representatives. Nevertheless, the Commission of Justice of the House of Representatives raised to the controversy Tuesday previous when assuring that it had received the legal project to modify the Federal Law of Arms and the Ammunition, Explosives and Chemical Substances, for his analysis and opinion. One of the defenders of the proposal, Gertz Manero said, then, que the legislators were "recognizing a reality" when offering to the population the possibility of defending to their family and patrimony. But, these declarations have generated a rain of critics, because it is considered that the authorities look for to desligar themselves of one of their responsibilities: the public security. **time-out** "Without consider the lamentable consequence that the proliferation of weapon have have in ours country and, of way much more forceful, in the society where the access to the weapon be more ample", affirm the president of the Commission of Human rights of the City of Mexico, Emilio Alvarez Icaza. Also, one has said that the proposal, that it will be taken in 15 days to the tribune of the Congress, will only encourage the "law of the Talión" between the citizenship and it has alerted that this type of permissions would entail the risk of generating happened situations in the United States in which young they shoot to his companions of school. [b]One looks for to fulfill norms[/b] Before the accumulation of critics that have occurred days in the last, Francisco Silva Ruiz, deputy of the Divided governor National Action, affirmed to the press who what they will discuss the legislators is not a law that allows the use of firearms to all the population. She emphasized that what is tried is that the people who have arms or whom love to have fulfill them a normative frame, but through an update of the norms that already exist. In this frame, she noticed that although at the present time there is possibility that a person has a weapon in her house, must register it in the Secretariat of the National defense; but, to fulfill that proceeding, she must transport it to that dependency and, she is penalized to carry arms. Then, "so that it is possible to be fulfilled the law must itself begin to infringe it", the deputy explained. "This type of questions is those that they have to be modified and they are indeed the one that is being reframed, but of no way the spirit of this project of initiative is to arm to the population, nor the one that now everybody can carry a weapon", declared to diario the Reformation . Thus the things, the society is to the expectation on which the legislators will discuss, in the next days, on the use of arms.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 8:21:12 AM EDT
she emphasized that the self-defense is a constitutional right
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I am waiting for the day when I hear these words in an American newspaper...
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 8:33:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: OK. ...as long as they promise not to steal my car.
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How would they steal your car in New York? [:D]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 12:15:49 PM EDT
ckapsl: Some funny stuff!
the pistolización of the Mexican society is not an answer to end the delinquency that prevails in the City of Mexico
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[:)]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 2:31:18 PM EDT
Ever since I've lived here (1996), Mexicans have been able to legally purchase handguns (.38 or smaller), non-semi shotguns and rifles. I'm not saying they don't have to jump through some hoops to get them, but it is legal.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 2:37:57 PM EDT
Looks like I might be able to move to Mexico and still keep my guns.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 2:51:29 PM EDT
If Mexican can legally buy guns in their country, then what will happen to the SAXET gunshow?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 3:43:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stcyr: Ever since I've lived here (1996), Mexicans have been able to legally purchase handguns (.38 or smaller), non-semi shotguns and rifles. I'm not saying they don't have to jump through some hoops to get them, but it is legal.
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That's interesting, stcyr. Are they allowed to carry them in public places? (The article seems to say no). Are you, a non-Mexican citizen (I assume), allowed to own them?
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 3:45:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shooter69: ckapsl: Some funny stuff!
the pistolización of the Mexican society is not an answer to end the delinquency that prevails in the City of Mexico
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[:)]
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Yep, I chuckled over this word too. I think we should shamelessly adopt it into the English language as [b]pistolization[/b]. It has a nice ring to it, don't you think? I think that I will go to the range this weekend and do some pistolizing [:)]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 3:56:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Schnert: If Mexican can legally buy guns in their country, then what will happen to the SAXET gunshow?
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Where is the SAXET gun show, and is it patronized by Mexican pistoleros? [:D]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:00:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 4:02:07 PM EDT by ckapsl]
Originally Posted By hielo: 7 Families own 99% of the commerce in Mexico and they own 100% of the political power. They will not allow anything to upset their applecart. Nice work if you can get it though...
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You may be right. Still, stranger things have happened. Ten years ago, I would never have predicted that the concealed carry movement would have come this far. Now, we have 33 states, and seven more will probably be won in the next few years: Wisconsin, Minnesota, Kansas, Missouri, Colorado, Nebraska and Ohio. Good luck to the Mexicans, they really do need it.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 4:13:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Schnert: If Mexican can legally buy guns in their country, then what will happen to the SAXET gunshow?
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Hahaha! Yeah, that's very true. I'm actually headed to the one in San Antonio this weekend. [(:|)]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 5:37:49 PM EDT
ckapsl, It is virtually impossible for me or you, as foreign nationals to legally own any firearm in Mexico, although you may get a temporary permit to bring in a (bolt action) hunting rifle for a specific hunting trip. Of course, if you're a drug dealer – none of the above firearm restrictions apply! Frankly, I have not heard any of the proposals outlined in blackrifle51's post, nor am I aware of any sudden rise in crime. Of course if you are conspicuously rich (Gringo or national) in Mexico City or Guadalajara or go looking for trouble in Chiapas etc., you'll likely have problems. However, I have found that Mexico is safer than the U.S.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 5:48:43 PM EDT
When I lived in San Anton I loved the SAXET show. I always wondered why the ATF van videotaped everyone coming in and going out until my friend clued me into the "Mexico Connection."[):)]
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:17:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ckapsl: I think that I will go to the range this weekend and do some pistolizing [:)]
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That's fine ckapsl. Do not forget however, that it is not an answer to the delinquency that may prevail in your city.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 6:38:32 PM EDT
Contreversy over the use of Arms Great [b]revuelo[/b] has caused the posible use of arms in Mexico Mexico City - For some it is intelligent and sensible; for others, [b]peligroso[/b] and only generates more violence. So has the reaction of the Mexican [b]funcionarios[/b] before the possibility of legally permitting civilians to carry firearms, in order to fight the public insecurity of those who live in the entire country. --------------------------------------------------- More to come...words I don't know in bold.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 7:04:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 7:55:48 PM EDT by cc48510]
The Debate The probability of the Congress permitting the civil population to carry firearms, has ignited a colorful debate in the country. Although, as the authorities have said, their intention is [b]regularicen[/b] the arms that today are found in the [b]clandestinidad[/b], fears exist about the negative consequences that this could generate. To speak of its [b]impulsores[/b], this law's purpose is to have strict control over the use of firearms and explosives. The initiative "is a very intelligent decision and very sensible", assures the [b]responsable[/b] of Mexican Public Security, Alejandro Gertz Manero. "The people that in good faith need to defend themselves in an unsecure situation, should have the total support of the government and of the laws". Likewise, he emphasized that self-defense is a constitutional right. Without a doubt, this opinion is not shared by other [b]funcionarios[/b]. For example, the [b]vicefiscal capitalino[/b] Renato Sales the project is counterproductive because "violence begets violence". The pistolization of Mexican society is not the answer to end the delinquency that thrives in Mexico City, under the pretext of [b]salvaguardar[/b] the physical safety of the families and their goods", he affirmed in an interview with the local press. In this sense [b]coincidió[/b] the [b]encargado[/b] of the Secretary of Public Security, Marcelo Ebrard, therefore considered that to permit the people to arm themselves in self-defense, would be [b]equiparable[/b] to the state accepting that is not able with the problem of public insecurity. Not withstanding, he recognized that the national constitution guarantees the right to legitimate self-defense.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 7:43:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/4/2002 7:52:55 PM EDT by cc48510]
Provoking "law of the Talión" The proposal mantains the dispositions of the calibers now permitted, which are semi-automatic pistols of a caliber no larger than .380 (9mm), revolvers in calibers no greater than a .38 special and a .22 Rifle. Leading legislators affirmed that the proposal is a "working document" that the National Defense Commission of the Chamber of Representatives is studying, without converting it to a law that owes [b]tramitar[/b] the Chamber of Representatives. Without a doubt, the Justice Commission of the lower chamber raised the [b]polémica[/b] the previous tuesday to assure that having received the legal project to modify the federal law of arms and munitions, explosives and chemical substances, for their analysis and opinion. one of the defenders of the proposal, Gertz Manero said, that the legislators were "recognizing a reality" to offer the population the possibility of defending their families and [b]patrimonio[/b]. But, these declerations have generated a rain of critics, that feel that the authorities seek to delegate one of their responsibilities: public safety.
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:36:22 PM EDT
[b]Living Scared[/b] From “Down On The Border” By [url=http://www.gunsandammomag.com]Guns & Ammo Magazine[/url] Contributing Field Editor [b]Bart Skelton[/b] March 2002 Issue [i]While guns are illegal south of the border, it’s strange how many folk have ‘em.[/i] Those who saw the video found it immensely humorous and thoroughly entertaining. There’s no doubt the sight would probably disturb anyone whose political views skid off to the left. The video was made in the mountains of Sinaloa, Mexico, where the characters were residents. Sinaloa is well known for its drug dealers who — with an exceptionally violent streak — live to further their illicit trade and earn vile amounts of money. The video depicted a large social gathering of the aforementioned folks and their families — men, women and children celebrating an event of significance known only to the participants. The filmmaker, using a small video camera, documented the entire event, from the live mariachis, dancers, food and the families, to the beer and tequila and shooting. Pistols were sported by the men — in waistbands, holsters and in pockets. Most seemed to be of 1911 configuration, both .45 and .38 Super, though there were also revolvers. During the dancing, which took place on the large porch of a fancy hacienda, pistols were randomly drawn and fired into the air. In general, the attendees paid little attention to the shooting. The real excitement came when one of the celebrators, a man of some importance, arrived with an AK-47 and spare magazines. The gentleman jammed his expensive silver-belly hat down on his head, took a swig of tequila and fired a long burst into the air. Empty casings were strewn over the dance floor and had to be kicked away by the dancers to prevent a fall. Though several women covered their ears during the firing, all were amused and smiled profusely. Several other men joined in and, exchanging magazines, took turns shooting the rifle into the air. More pistols were produced and volley fire was enjoyed. Though the mood was festive, it was given that most of the gun-handlers were likely the sort that wouldn’t hesitate to turn their tools on anyone who got in their way, including each other. The video ran tirelessly for hours, recording the celebration throughout the night and early morning. This series of tapes were confiscated from a known drug trafficker, and it was later surmised that he had likely been the cameraman. He, along with several compatriots, was later indicted on drug smuggling charges in the U.S., found guilty and jailed. (continued)
Link Posted: 4/4/2002 9:37:25 PM EDT
But the celebrations in Sinaloa, Sonora and Chihuahua continue. And so does the shooting. As is so in our homeland, firearms have been an important part of the history of Mexico. Mexican people have cherished firearms of all types and used them well. Since the end of the Mexican Revolution, Mexico has been a haven for antique guns including Colts, Winchesters and Smith & Wessons. Many fine guns have come out of Mexico and into the hands of collectors. Unfortunately, the days of U.S. collectors traveling to Mexico in search of an old Bisley or Model 94 are long gone. Mexico’s current stance on gun ownership is one of the toughest on record. The common citizen is not allowed to own a gun. Period. Exceptions are occasionally granted on agricultural operations. Ranchers and farmers can apply for a permit to own a .22 rifle for predator control, though restrictions are tight. Gun clubs, especially silhouette, have always been extremely popular and certain permits can be obtained (at a high price) for target shooting. Permits can also be acquired by hunting guides for their clientele to import certain guns for hunting, though the paperwork is vexing. Police and military checkpoint personnel often get greedy when they see a vanload of U.S. hunters and their guides. Anyone else caught with a gun or ammunition is on a fast track to the [i]juzgado[/i], including hapless Americans who inadvertently cross into Mexico with a gun or ammo in the car. Mexican judges have no sympathy for American gun owners who take a wrong turn in heavy traffic and find themselves at the Mexican Customs secondary inspection area with no way to turn around. But guns remain in large quantities down there. Few drug runners are without several, and many possess full autos, including AK-47s. Murders and gang-style shootings — almost always drug related— are rampant in the large cities, especially on the border. Illegal exportation of firearms from the U.S. to Mexico is a constant problem and exchanging firearms for drugs is common business. The illegal shipment of arms from the U.S. to Mexico is strictly a product of the high profile criminal element operating in Mexico. And Mexico’s decent, law-abiding people are legally forbidden from protecting themselves with a firearm in a land where life is cheap. I often reflect on the big celebration down in Sinaloa and the party shooters, and on the Mexican government’s ridiculously harsh stance on gun ownership. If we owe anything to Mexico at all, it can only be thanks for providing truth in the old adage “If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.” We should look to the south more often — there might be more to be learned, such as the fact that everyday citizens down there are scared. Let’s not let it happen to us. [i]Copyright 2002 by PRIMEDIA Specialty Group, Inc. For discussion and education purposes only.[/i]
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