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Posted: 4/2/2002 2:52:47 PM EDT
[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/655913/posts[/url]
Link Posted: 4/2/2002 3:00:26 PM EDT
[b]Lopez:[/b] Regarding the scandals that have the Church in the news everyday now, are there lessons to take from the Church's past for the faithful, the clergy, and for the rest of the world — the media covering it, etc. — a context to put it in? [b]Crocker:[/b] I think most lay Catholics understand that the Church is a divine institution staffed by human beings who are as subject to sin as anyone else. Even the pope has a confessor. I do think that these scandals have been seriously misreported. [b]I think reporters are loath to run stories headlined "Experience of Church with Homosexual Priests Confirms Boy Scout Fears" even though that appears to be the real story,[/b] as the bulk of these cases involve homosexual overtures to post-pubescent boys. But just as liberals have misread what these cases are about, so too have they misread the tea leaves about the future. The outcome of these scandals will be not a more liberal Church, but a more conservative one. It was, after all, liberal moral laxity that got the Church into this mess; and the Church, if not liberal columnists, understands that more liberalism is not going to get the Church out of it. The Church will find its sources of moral renewal where it has always found them, in fidelity to Church teaching, not in liberal compromise with the world.
Link Posted: 4/2/2002 3:12:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2002 3:16:13 PM EDT by Schnert]
An ecclesiology which understands the Church to be subject to sin is a patently Lutheran assertion. The Council of Trent (Counter Reformation) plainly states that at ordination an "indellible mark" is conferred to the ordinand via the Church's impostion of hands. So, it's interesting to read Crocker's remarks in light of the official RC understanding of the Church and ordination. I've always struggled with the Trentian understanding of ordination and Church order in light of the sacrament of Penance. Sancti Thoma adjuva me! He is correct. The Church in North America, regardless of expression/denomination, has sold out to popular culture. Sometimes I go ballistic when I realize that the majority of the faithful are being force fed the leftist agenda while being told that it's Gospel.
Link Posted: 4/2/2002 7:06:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/2/2002 7:10:50 PM EDT by Belloc]
Originally Posted By Schnert: [b]An ecclesiology which understands the Church to be subject to sin is a patently Lutheran assertion. [/b] Yes but I don't think that is his assertian as I understand it. [b]The Council of Trent (Counter Reformation) plainly states that at ordination an "indellible mark" is conferred to the ordinand via the Church's impostion of hands. So, it's interesting to read Crocker's remarks in light of the official RC understanding of the Church and ordination.[/b] Again I don't read into Crocker's remarks that he is challenging Trent. [b]I've always struggled with the Trentian understanding of ordination and Church order in light of the sacrament of Penance.[/b] In what way? [b]He is correct. The Church in North America, regardless of expression/denomination, has sold out to popular culture. Sometimes I go ballistic when I realize that the majority of the faithful are being force fed the leftist agenda while being told that it's Gospel.[/b] For all intents and purposes, the American Catholic Bishops are all but in open revolt against the Bishop of Rome. I have first hand experience in this matter.
Link Posted: 4/2/2002 7:31:40 PM EDT
Belloc, Interesting. How would you reconcile the imprtance of confessors for the clergy with the dictates of Trent? No flame intended. P.S. I agree that the USCCB's has been in blatant revolt against Church discipline. P.P.S. Does Rome have a place for repentant Lutherans? I'd be willing to go home to Rome in a heartbeat.
Link Posted: 4/2/2002 9:22:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Schnert: [b]Belloc, Interesting. How would you reconcile the imprtance of confessors for the clergy with the dictates of Trent? No flame intended.[/b] None taken. Do you mean cofession to the clergy or cofession for the clergy? A little confused here. Trent, as I understand it, reafirmed the 7 sacraments and clarified the practice and theology of indulgences, even if it did acknowledge that because of their misunderstanding they would be done away with. [b]P.S. I agree that the USCCB's has been in blatant revolt against Church discipline.[/b] And if the veins of the next Pontiff run with the blood of traditional orthodoxy, there will by an outright schism. [b]P.P.S. Does Rome have a place for repentant Lutherans? I'd be willing to go home to Rome in a heartbeat.[/b] Yes. The problem would be finding a parish that still sincerely puts the search for truth above all else and bends not it's knee to the depravity that passes itself off for modern culture. Again, I am working on this. I meet with the Cardinal of the Archdioces of Washington on Friday. My expectations are however, quite low.
Link Posted: 4/2/2002 9:52:50 PM EDT
Belloc, E-mail me. Tell me more. -Schnert
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