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Posted: 3/27/2002 11:31:59 PM EDT
Does anyone think that it is absolutely [b]outrageous[/b] that some friggin guy walks into a Passover meal in Israel, filled with innocent diners, and blows up the joint, killing 19 ?? Yet another example of the [u]indefensible[/u] actions of Hammas and their animal-like cruelty. Can someone say "Scorched-Earth-Policy" with these ghetto animals?? Push them into the sea, wall them off.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 11:37:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2002 11:38:45 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Hey,you have to give the PLO the benefit of the doubt.....maybe "peace" in arab means something else.I mean we are awlays yelling to them we need peace in the reigon!Perhaps in arab it means: peace-translation= Go into a hotel and murder innocent lives and claim that you are fighting for god? [rolleyes][rolleyes][rolleyes]
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 11:45:53 PM EDT
Just you, me, and every sane and sensible person, Donny.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 11:54:09 PM EDT
Israel cannot let this continue. Screw Zinni! Screw the whole peace process, which has brought them nothing but an arrogant, suicidal, homicidal little nation-state in their midst! A state which cannot grow any produce of any sort except suicide bombers. Here's a nice little article that might mean that the end is near:[url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27001[/url] Eric The(BringItOn!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 12:23:30 AM EDT
I like the end of the article were it says" But the sources warn that Arafat is playing with a greater fire than he might realize, with the very real potential that any new Mideast conflict could escalate to the point that Israel is forced to use some weapons in its undeclared nuclear arsenal." Arafat is going to ware out the patients of Isreal and he is going to end up getting his butt handed to himself on a platter, and it just might be glowing from radiation if he is not careful. But that might be his strategy, Oh look Isreal is picking on the little Palestinians that will be the news lines all across the world.[puke] Makes me sick. Ever since the day Isreal has been a nation they have been under attack. I thik it is time for Isreal to declare all out war and put the Palestinians and any other nation that wants to opress them in their place, six feet under.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 1:40:11 AM EDT
Even if a new Mideast war does not turn out as Arafat and his comrades expect, the Palestinian leader can at least claim that he valiantly resisted foreign pressure to give in to Israeli negotiation demands
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Be kinda hard to "claim" anything when you are dead...[img]http://rockbottomdlux.freewebspace.com/smilies/Tank.gif[/img][img]http://rockbottomdlux.freewebspace.com/smilies/Tank.gif[/img][img]http://rockbottomdlux.freewebspace.com/smilies/Tank.gif[/img][img]http://rockbottomdlux.freewebspace.com/smilies/Tank.gif[/img][img]http://rockbottomdlux.freewebspace.com/smilies/Tank.gif[/img][img]http://rockbottomdlux.freewebspace.com/smilies/Tank.gif[/img][img]http://rockbottomdlux.freewebspace.com/smilies/Tank.gif[/img] All this sounds like too much fun.[img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/rolleyes2.gif[/img] Will certainly make TV worth watching again, even if I have to pay $5 a gallon for gas while this "little" disagreement gets settled.[img]http://rockbottomdlux.freewebspace.com/smilies/Popcorn.gif[/img] Fire when ready Gridley... just remember what happened to you Arab idiots every other time you started up with Israel! [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/biggrin2.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:15:58 AM EDT
Its absolutely ridiculuous. garandman's peace proposal: 1. Establish a level playing field. Either- a. The US disassociates itself completely from both sides, or b. capitalizes on the war by selling mid and low level technology to BOTH sides. 2. Let them go at it, no holds barred. No UN interference, no US interference tying Israel's hands behind their back, or "condemning" the Arabs action. Its a war for Pete's sake. There is NO "nice" way to kill people. 3. Last man standing wins. But what's going on over there, the US position, pretty much every aspect of the situation is ridiculuous. Just like Fat Boy and Little Man were necessary to end WWII, an all out, no holds barred WAR will be the only way "peace" will ever be established. Essentially, enuf civilians have to die until the point somebody says "Uncle." But to try to manufacture some pseudo peace with people who have hated each other since time began is foolish. And when one side is as erratic and deluded as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, peace will NEVER be accomplished until all those WANTING a war, are dead. NEWSFLASH: The situation just got MORE ridiculuous. Jesse Jackson wants to head over there.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:27:23 AM EDT
garandman, I understand that you don't have a dog in this fight, but you do know that there is one side that is sending suicide bombers into civilian areas with the intent to kill and maim as many men, women and children as is possible. Do you think the Lord has any 'side' in [u]that[/u] particular aspect of this fight? I mean, those folks were sitting down at the same Seder Meal for Passover that Our Lord sat down to eat with His disciples. I think He would be quite angry at what has just occurred, don't you? Eric The(PassoverIsNotJustForJewsYouKnow)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:32:29 AM EDT
Agreed. 100%
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:40:04 AM EDT
One must also explore the Saddam(I'llpayyourfamily10KifyoukillIsraelies&Americans)Hussein factor.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:42:40 AM EDT
NEWSFLASH: The situation just got MORE ridiculuous. Jesse Jackson wants to head over there.
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He's just trying to get out of paying child support. Where is that other prick, Gil Garcetti, when you need him? [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:49:50 AM EDT
I got a solution, kill all the Palestinians and all the Jewraelis, then give the land to Canada and we will make breweries and ship beer to the USA for all that tax money and guns, all the while keeping democracy in the region.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:52:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By satcong: Agreed. 100%
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[peep] What he said... a3(BackToWork!)kid
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:53:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 4:55:13 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
They are savages, plain and simple. garandman, I understand your intention, but you're wrong. We have no choice, but to choose sides. And that choice is obvious. Attempts to morally equate the two sides are ridiculous, if not disingenuous. These savage assaults on innocents, with the promise that your murderous act will be rewarded in heaven with sex, are as reprehensible an idea as any in human history. Heaven=Whorehouse. Vile. We have to choose and actively support one side. That side must be Israel. The other side is murder, savagery, and evil.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:54:53 AM EDT
Hey! [b]a3kid[/b], what's up my man? BTW, Miz Hun is in New York for the next four days with my cell phone (mine works fine in NYC, hers doesn't)! So e-mail me if you'd like! Eric The(Friendly)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:22:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GeneStoner: Does anyone think that it is absolutely [b]outrageous[/b] that some friggin guy walks into a Passover meal in Israel, filled with innocent diners, and blows up the joint, killing 19 ??
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Let's have the U.S. taxpayer buy them too some tanks, F-16's, helicopters,etc., and the suicide bombers will go away.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:31:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: a. The US disassociates itself completely from both sides.......
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1. The United States should stop paying money to either side. Get out completely. 2. Put enough troops in the region to enforce peace and write the peace agreement for both sides to sign. Neither Israel nor the Palestinians hold any area of strategic value to the U.S. (Turkey is strategic and Turkey I do worry about.)
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:36:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: garandman, I understand that you don't have a dog in this fight, but you do know that there is one side that is sending suicide bombers into civilian areas with the intent to kill and maim as many men, women and children as is possible. Do you think the Lord has any 'side' in [u]that[/u] particular aspect of this fight? I mean, those folks were sitting down at the same Seder Meal for Passover that Our Lord sat down to eat with His disciples. I think He would be quite angry at what has just occurred, don't you? Eric The(PassoverIsNotJustForJewsYouKnow)Hun[>]:)]
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Two comments - 1. You are missing my point. The Arabs are at war with the Jews. For some reason, the Jews are NOT at war with the Arabs. In war, ALL is fair. I'm saying "let the Jews do WHATEVER they feel necessary to fight a fair war. WITHOUT America interfering." 2. Yes the Passover IS ONLY for Jews who beleive that Jesus was the bastard son of Joseph, and NOT their Messiah. The whole point of the Passover was a celebration (of sorts) looking FORWARD to the Crucifixion (and resurrection) of Christ, in fulfillment of His role as Messiah. To now celebrate the Jewish Passover (with all its rites and rituals) is to say "We still wait for the Messiah, and that clown Jesus had delusions of granduer that he was God." The High Priest at the time said as much. that is WHY the Lord's Table was given - NOT as a continuation of the Passover ritual, but to signify that the need for the Passover feast had passed, and the Passover should be discontinued. That is why the veil of the Temple was rent. The Lord's Table is a REPLACEMENT of teh Passover. Further, wrap your mind around this - My study of the Covenants has revelaed that the promise of the land of Israel was BOTH eternal and conditional. Eternal in that it provisions would never end, and conditional on Israel's obedience to God. Possession of the land was supposed to be granted ONLY via Divine means, and then ONLY to occur when Israel was in submissive relationship to God. It was both a barometer of their spirituality(if they were NOT in the land, they would know God was NOT pleased with them), and a motivation to remain close to God (WHEN they were not in the land, they would think "Gee, let's return to God, so we can go home.") What Britain did in giving the land to Israel was outside of Divine means, as Israel then and now is CLEARLY not, as a nation, being obedient to God. In giving the land to Israel, you remove Israels incentive to return to their God - kinda like promising heaven to people who aren't saved. It is WRONG, it is removing the Divine goad to get Israel to return to their God, and to embrace their Messiah. Now, I try to shy away from words like "antiSemitic," but in my head, I'm wondering WHAT could be more antiSemitic that to place a "stumblingblock" in front of Israel from returning to Jehovah????
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:40:07 AM EDT
[b]Israel Plans Big Assault If Truce Talks Fail[/b] As the United States tries to mediate a truce in the Middle East, Israeli military planners are preparing for a major assault on Palestinian cities, towns and refugee camps that would be broader and deeper than the offensive undertaken earlier this month, according to Israeli officials. [url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11927-2002Mar24.html[/url]
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:52:19 AM EDT
Hypothetical: If we "leveled the playing field", giving the Palestinians the same weapons that the Israelis possess (including nukes), what would happen? Care to guess who'd fire first, and with what weapon? Do you think the target would be military?
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:58:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Do you think the Lord has any 'side' in [u]that[/u] particular aspect of this fight? I mean, those folks were sitting down at the same Seder Meal for Passover that Our Lord sat down to eat with His disciples. I think He would be quite angry at what has just occurred, don't you?
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ETH - You make an awful lot of claims about God and what He thinks, but almost NEVER reference ANY Scripture. Not a good practice. [i]Psalm 116: 15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.[/i] Any time one of God's people (saints) are killed, He takes note. But, is someone "One of His saints" JUST because that individual is sitting at Sedar Meal, or at the Lord's Table? Hardly. Scripturally, NO WAY. If so, I'm gonna become a Jew, so I too can live like the devil himself, and ALSO be "one of God's chosen." [;)] Regarding His table, here's what God actually thinks: [i]I Cor. 11: 27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. [/i] THAT my friend is Scripture. THAT is what God thinks. Those who abusively eat the Lord's table are considered guilty of the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. And God takes THAT pretty seriously.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:04:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 6:06:11 AM EDT by Cincinnatus]
...but it's probably a pretty safe bet that God wouldn't be too happy about that whole MURDERING 20 PEOPLE thing. I don't have a scripture quote to support this, but I still think it's a safe bet. (Then again, maybe this type of carnage is just further proof that God doesn't give a damn, one way or the other...) garandman, you make it sound as though the only thing God is concerned with is obedience.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:09:04 AM EDT
reading from the Book of Armaments, Chapter 4, Verses 16 to 20: [i] Then did he raise on high the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, saying, "Bless this, O Lord, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the people did rejoice and did feast upon the lambs and toads and tree-sloths and fruit-bats and orangutans and breakfast cereals ... Now did the Lord say, "First thou pullest the Holy Pin. Then thou must count to three. Three shall be the number of the counting and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither shalt thou count two, excepting that thou then proceedeth to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the number of the counting, be reached, then lobbest thou the Holy Hand Grenade in the direction of thine foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it." [/i] *whistles*
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:09:20 AM EDT
Make no mistake. The "home" of Hezbollah is Tehran.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:11:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Hypothetical: If we "leveled the playing field", giving the Palestinians the same weapons that the Israelis possess (including nukes), what would happen? Care to guess who'd fire first, and with what weapon? Do you think the target would be military?
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For one thing, I said "mid and low level tech," SECIFICALLY NOT to include nukes. NO STRAW MEN PLEASE. Futher, our intelligence says they ALREADY have nukes. So your question is likely a moot point. Lastly, let me pose a Theretical question in answer to your as to "would the target be military?" - Is it ONLY OK for the USA to target civilains in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, but NOT OK for the Arabs to target civilians in their war? (BTW I APPLAUD the decision to target civilians in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. It saved HUNDREDS of thousands of lives, on BOTH sides. That is the reality of the SENSIBLE way to fight a war. Let's kill as many as possible as fast as possible so teh war will be over as quick as possible) My point is let BOTH sides target WHOEVER they want. Arabs are targeting civilians. Let the Jews do the same. PEACE WILL *****NEVER****** OCCUR UNTIL ALL THOSE WANTING WAR ARE DEAD.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:22:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:27:25 AM EDT
Moral relativism at it's finest.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:32:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: Is it ONLY OK for the USA to target civilains in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, but NOT OK for the Arabs to target civilians in their war?
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Bzzzzt. Wrong. Your question is based on a false premise. USA did not "target" civilians - Nagaski and Hiroshima were legitimate military targets. Jerusalem cafes and resturaunts are not. 1.5 billion Moslems in the world. 13 million Jews in the world. Who's going to win your proposed knock-down drag-out war?
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Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:35:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 6:38:37 AM EDT by Scarecrow]
Cry about 19 dead people, what about the murder of thousands of civilians killed in Dresden? It had no strategic value whatsoever yet it was bombed, schools, hospitals, homes and all, then they came in for a low flight and machine gunned the survivors. All this by the evil terrorist called British parliament and the US gov? Don't give me that crap that it happened 60+ years ago. Tell me that these 19 dead people of yours don't matter in 60 years. Some of you are so two faced and full of fucking shit. The IRA did the same crap, and look at them now, there country is economically better then Britain and yet to create itself they had to blow up all kinds of people. Now for you fudge packers who think I support what Osama Bin freaking Laden did, wake up, the guy is a murderer before anything else, and his actions are nothing comparable to what the IRA, the PLO or any group seeking freedom from oppression by a more powerful and organized group. You want money going to the Jews so that they can complete their ethnic cleansing, great for you, but I don't think everyone in the USA should be forced to pay for a bunch of Jews.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:39:52 AM EDT
Canada AND the USA can't Both be "#1". Only one can be #1. Make up your mind.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:42:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 6:48:34 AM EDT by Scarecrow]
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Canada AND the USA can't Both be "#1". Only one can be #1. Make up your mind.
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Okie dokie [:)] Don't [>Q] too much now.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:43:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Hypothetical: If we "leveled the playing field", giving the Palestinians the same weapons that the Israelis possess (including nukes), what would happen? Care to guess who'd fire first, and with what weapon? Do you think the target would be military?
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They haven't hit any military targets yet. They seem to like to get into the middle of a civilian crowd, and younguns at that, and pull the pin. Those bastards need to wiped off the face of the earth starting with Hussein, Arafat, Kadafi and Osama.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:50:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: garandman, you make it sound as though the only thing God is concerned with is obedience.
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BINGO!!!!!!!!! this man wins a prize!!!!!! And the PRIMARY step of obedience He cares about is confession of and turning from(repentance) our sins, and humbly believing in the salvation made available thru the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He IS God, after all - He can do whatever He wants. Its one of the perks of BEING God. In reality, obedience is NOT the ONLY thing God cares about, but it IS the primary thing. Either the obedience of His Son in dying on teh cross, or the obedience of man in humbling themselves before Himself.
(Then again, maybe this type of carnage is just further proof that God doesn't give a damn, one way or the other...)
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He cared enuf to send His Son to die and make a way for man to be returned to God. Who else has cared that much about ANY man????? I haven't. Has anyone here in this forum cared that much???
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:51:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Scarecrow:
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Canada AND the USA can't Both be "#1". Only one can be #1. Make up your mind.
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Okie dokie [:)] Don't [>Q] too much now.
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Keep telling yourself that. It'll make you feel better. [;)]
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:54:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: He cared enuf to send His Son to die and make a way for man to be returned to God. Who else has cared that much about ANY man????? I haven't. Has anyone here in this forum cared that much???
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Heck, I'd send my son (or myself) to die a painful death, if he'd (I'd) get to become the all-powerful God of the entire universe. Where's the sacrifice? Seems like a good deal.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:56:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Keep telling yourself that. It'll make you feel better. [;)]
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[soapbox]
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:01:56 AM EDT
Hello Gentlemen, This is a Rant Eric, please read Garandman's post carefully as he is TOTALLY CORRECT! Passover was only for the jews. The Mosaic law was nailed to the cross and done away with. Passover is totally moot, along with any other holy day any religion, and I mean any religion... might ever come up with. All days belong to the Lord and are equally sacred. Besides the fact that MOST of these people that inhabit israel at this time claiming to be jews, are NOT any more jewish than the man in the moon, they are Godless and without any type of allegiance to any god whatsoever. Do you realize what Zionism is???? It is communism my boy.... plain and simple. Garandman, you are TOTALLY nailing it on the head... God gave a CONDITIONAL promise to Israel. They blew it. BIG TIME. Kudos to you sir... the Word was speaking unhampered to you. Quite frankly this will all end up badly... and American boys will end up dying for a country and a people who are no more deserving of our help than a dead dog. Cut aid to israel NOW. As if that would ever happen though. The jewish lobby owns the media, the congress and the senate and the money supply thru the Fed. It would be hilarious if it was not so horrible. Ask the sailors on the Liberty how great israel is... And btw folks... israel as an ally in the region is a joke. If it was not for those idiots being there, the arabs would be busy killing each other which is as it should be, instead of chasing jews around with explosive belts. Arabs would sell us oil all day long, they just want a market for their goods. Israel has NO strategic importance whatsoever... NONE. I DEFY someone to show me how they are strategically important!!! Who cares a dang what arab states slaughter each other??? Nobody,except maybe the arabs that are dying. When the winner ended up on top....after killing each other, they would still sell us all the oil we could ever want. them. Saddam is a cruel and tyrannical megalomaniac, he kills his own people with chem weapons ever, see Kurds, he is bottom of the barrel folks.... but honestly....do you really care? Nope, didnt think so. Now if israel wants to stop all this crap.... it would line up its tanks hub to hub, attatch drag chains, and scrape all the palestinians and their baloney right off the face of the earth. No palestinians.... no problem. Kick them out, let the other arabs babysit these idiots. Throw them right out, send them streaming for the borders, give em a trail of tears they will never forget. But until they do, they are gonna die die die. By the 15's and 20's, jews over there are gonna suffer. Arabs are never, NEVER gonna stop hating the jews. Peace proposal? HAH! RANT MODE NOW OFF. I return you to your regularly scheduled thread. Dram out
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:07:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Heck, I'd send my son (or myself) to die a painful death, if he'd (I'd) get to become the all-powerful God of the entire universe. Where's the sacrifice? Seems like a good deal.
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You misunderstand. He was ALREADY God of the entire universe. He had NOTHING to gain. It was simply a demonstration of Divine love and selflessness. He had done NOTHING wrong. He was deserving of nothing OTHER than man's worship, prasie, service and obedience. Instead, He paid man's sin debt - a debt He DID NOT owe, a debt man COULD NOT pay. The question is "Will men receive that payment to their account( thru the Scripturally-mandated means) or INSIST on clinging to that debt, that their good works will somehow pay it off??" THAT is love. For ALL "men." Jew and Gentile. Male and female. Fat and skinny. Nose breathers and mouth breaters. [;)]
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:10:00 AM EDT
Every last Palistinian needs to be run out of Israel or shot. Preferably shot. They are not people, they are sub-human POS.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:23:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: Bzzzzt. Wrong. Your question is based on a false premise. USA did not "target" civilians - Nagaski and Hiroshima were legitimate military targets. Jerusalem cafes and resturaunts are not.
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The US targeted PRIMARILY civilian areas. Surely you agree that FAR more civilians were killed than military personnel in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, AND that this was a known anticipated result by military strategists BEFORE the bombs were dropped. And as I said before, I wholeheartedly agree with the decision by the military strategists.
1.5 billion Moslems in the world. 13 million Jews in the world. Who's going to win your proposed knock-down drag-out war?
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If that really mattered, why aren't the Arabs winning now? Everyone keeps telling me they are the epitome of evil, primates, scum of the earth. A DECLARED knock-down drag out would serve to unfetter Israel - the Arabs are obviously ALREADY unfettered. At least that's true if they are the bastion of evil everyone keeps assuring me they are. Further, The world is FULL of 1 against 10 odds. Is the US to fund every one of those situations?? I thought it was a Conservative principle that the US of A is NOT the world's policeman. Us Conservatives seem to lay aside our principles for convenience as often as the Liberals do. If God is on the Jews side, as is so often claimed, they should be fine, right? I mean, God is ABLE to take care of them, right???? I know the usual claims of "They are our ally, the only one in the region" and the rest of them. Fine. Whatever. The political aspects are open to debate, and good people can disagree. My points are (1) that supporting Israel on "RELIGIOUS" grounds is NOT supported by Scripture. And (2) that I say its time we unfetter Israel to fight this war any way they want. Just like the Arabs are doing.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:28:41 AM EDT
garandman, if there was a war between Bolivia and Peru, who would you support? BASED ON SCRIPTURE? Seems like a silly question, doesn't it? Try to pretend that the Israelis are not Jews, just for a second. It will allow you to see things more clearly, morally.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:34:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 7:58:13 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Dramborleg: Arabs would sell us oil all day long, they just want a market for their goods. Israel has NO strategic importance whatsoever... NONE. I DEFY someone to show me how they are strategically important!!! Who cares a dang what arab states slaughter each other??? Nobody,except maybe the arabs that are dying. When the winner ended up on top....after killing each other, they would still sell us all the oil we could ever want. them. Saddam is a cruel and tyrannical megalomaniac, he kills his own people with chem weapons ever, see Kurds, he is bottom of the barrel folks.... but honestly....do you really care? Nope, didnt think so.
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Dram - You be nailing it yourself. [:D] Arab oil is essentially WORTHLESS without the US as a purchaser. They'll sell to us. No matter what. They HAVE to. Claiming the Arabs wouldn't sell to us is the straw man of the century.
Now if israel wants to stop all this crap.... it would line up its tanks hub to hub, attatch drag chains, and scrape all the palestinians and their baloney right off the face of the earth. No palestinians.... no problem. Kick them out, let the other arabs babysit these idiots. Throw them right out, send them streaming for the borders, give em a trail of tears they will never forget. But until they do, they are gonna die die die. By the 15's and 20's, jews over there are gonna suffer. Arabs are never, NEVER gonna stop hating the jews. Peace proposal? HAH!
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Again, 100 right. Why DOESN'T Israel evicerate all Palestinains from off the face of the earth??? I suspect there is more going on here than meets the eye. Its almost as if the Israelis NEED those palestinians there. Maybe if the Israelis DID get rid of the Palestinians, they couldn't cry foul, and play on the heart-strings (read: pocketbook) of the US. Maybe, Sharon finds the suicide bombers "useful," just like Wayne LaPierre claimed Clinton found the school shootings "useful," "that he NEEDS a certain level of violence...." I mean, even OUR nation was EVIL enuf to send 59,000 of our soldiers to a POINTLESS death. Evil is all over the world. Comparatively, what's 20 people at a Passover event, to an evil man???? Hhmmmmmm........
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:47:36 AM EDT
Send Jesse over there... Then drop the bombs :)
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:48:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: garandman, if there was a war between Bolivia and Peru, who would you support? BASED ON SCRIPTURE? Seems like a silly question, doesn't it? Try to pretend that the Israelis are not Jews, just for a second. It will allow you to see things more clearly, morally.
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Actually, your question is NOT silly at all, is right on point, and makes my case for me. In a Peru vs. Bolivia celebrity deathmatch I'd say "Stay out of it. Its NOT our affair. Let them determine their own fates." Just like I am with Israel. That is what we call logical consistency. Trying to claim that I'm saying we should side against Israel based on Scripture is 100% false. I'm saying their is NO Scriptural support for siding with Israel in any political fracas they may be involved in. Political neutrality is my position, and teh position of Scripture. Rather, the US policy over the last 50 years has been to switch back and forth between Israel and teh Arabs as to who to send the monthly $10 million check to. THAT is stupid. The Israelis are NOT Jews, that's what I've been saying all along. I don't have to pretend they aren't Jews. They aren't - either spiritually, or biologically. Conversely, its the supposed fact that they ARE Jews that is making many people side with them, when those same people would NOT pick a side in Bolivia vs. Peru. THAT is called logical INconsistency. THEY are the ones who need to "pretend they aren't Jews."
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 8:01:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Do you think the Lord has any 'side' in [u]that[/u] particular aspect of this fight? I mean, those folks were sitting down at the same Seder Meal for Passover that Our Lord sat down to eat with His disciples. I think He would be quite angry at what has just occurred, don't you?
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ETH - You make an awful lot of claims about God and what He thinks, but almost NEVER reference ANY Scripture. Not a good practice. [i]Psalm 116: 15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.[/i] Any time one of God's people (saints) are killed, He takes note. But, is someone "One of His saints" JUST because that individual is sitting at Sedar Meal, or at the Lord's Table? Hardly. Scripturally, NO WAY. If so, I'm gonna become a Jew, so I too can live like the devil himself, and ALSO be "one of God's chosen." [;)] Regarding His table, here's what God actually thinks: [i]I Cor. 11: 27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. [/i] THAT my friend is Scripture. THAT is what God thinks. Those who abusively eat the Lord's table are considered guilty of the body and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. And God takes THAT pretty seriously.
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You are listing quite well the reasons why I rejected Christianity years ago, and in general all others Revealed Religions like Judaism and Islam. For those religions, the most important thing is G-d and not Mankind. So everything is justified in the name of whatsoever god. To me, it's more important Humankind, because so doing, very few against it can be justified. Religions like you're stating, Garandman, and not only you, are no more spiritual guidance, the religion original purpose, but centers of political power and seeds of Hate. I'll solemnly sweat that this is the last time I talk about religion subjects on this forum. Now I have to go to celebrate with my wife Pesach. May the next Christian Passover be full of joy and peace for everyone, believers and not believers. For ALL of US.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 8:18:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PaoloAR15: Religions like you're stating, Garandman, and not only you, are no more spiritual guidance, the religion original purpose, but centers of political power and seeds of Hate. .
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Those who follow Christ (I try to) detest religion. (I do.) Christ and His Word exist outside political power, and are NOT the "seeds of hate" but rather the evident love of God. Christ commands I preach His gospel, I've done so in this thread. He assured me all manner of "un-niceness" would be spoken against me for doing so. I pray only that His words be true in my life, cuz then I know I'm getting it right.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 8:23:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: The US targeted PRIMARILY civilian areas. Surely you agree that FAR more civilians were killed than military personnel in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, AND that this was a known anticipated result by military strategists BEFORE the bombs were dropped. And as I said before, I wholeheartedly agree with the decision by the military strategists.
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I do agree that many civilians were killed. But you implied that civilians were the "target" of USA bombing. That is not true. If it were true, why not go after Tokyo for even MORE civilians "targets". Your "comparison" of USA bombing of Hiroshima to end WWII to Hamas' bombing of a Jewish civilian's passover seder in a hotel to instigate an all-out Arab-Israeli war is ludicrous. If you see it as a matter of semantics or equivalence, so be it. It is irrelevant to what is happening in Jerusalem.
If God is on the Jews side, as is so often claimed, they should be fine, right? I mean, God is ABLE to take care of them, right????
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God is able to take care of you, so why do you own guns?
My points are (1) that supporting Israel on "RELIGIOUS" grounds is NOT supported by Scripture. And (2) that I say its time we unfetter Israel to fight this war any way they want. Just like the Arabs are doing.
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I agree with both of your points. But I also think that we SHOULD take sides in this - on the side of Israel. Not because they are without sin. Not because Jesus was a Jew. Not because more Jews live here than in Israel. Not because they are outnumbered. Not because we are the world's policemen. But because in this war, they are RIGHT and the Arabs are WRONG. AND... if the radical Moslems waging this war win, they will not stop until the USA and Western Civilization is castrated and beheaded.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 10:00:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: Your "comparison" of USA bombing of Hiroshima to end WWII to Hamas' bombing of a Jewish civilian's passover seder in a hotel to instigate an all-out Arab-Israeli war is ludicrous.
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Well EVERY analogy breaks down at some point. My useage of this analogy is just to say that BOTH WWI against teh Japs and Hamas against Israel are wars, and in war, for my money, targeting of civilians is a necesary evil of war.
God is able to take care of you, so why do you own guns?
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For pleasure. [}:D] God doesn't do anything for us that He has empowered us to do ourselves. He doesn't expect us to be pacifists, absorded in prayer while the enemy is imminently going to lopp off our heads (literally) My point is that if God is on Israels side, they should be praying to Him INSTEAD of begging money from the USA. God always fought their battles for them (while they were carrying swords) in the original conquest of the Holy Land. THAT is how they should be fighting this battle now, if they are gonna claim they have Scriptural right to the land. Presently they are in disobedience to God. Which underscored my earlier point - ANY time Israel is in a state of disobedience to God, according to the Covenant (contract) they are NOT entitled to teh land. Let them return to Jehovah, and then maybe even I will help them fight their battle for the land. Questions - Tactics (Arabs using suicide bombers) aside, what EXACTLY makes Israel "right" in all this? When you empirically look at a contested strip of land, which BOTH parties have legitimately owned at one time or another, how can one party be right, and teh other party be wrong??? I agree that right now, while we fund Israel's war machine, their is NO question teh Arabs are mad at the USA (it makes sense in fact). Are you SURE, I mean REALLY SURE that if we stopped funding the Israeli army, that teh Arabs would still want to attack us?? I cite the 200+ years BEFORE we assumed the role of Israel's nanny. Aside from the isolated incident at Triploi with the Barbary Pirates was there any organized resentment by Arabs of Americans? When we were funding Usama's Mujahadeen in the sixties and seventies, was there any wide resentment of Americans by Arabs? Rhetorical questions: NO, there was not. So we can legitimately wonder if much of the widespread resentment against Americans has to do with sending guns and money to teh Arabs mortal enemies. Hey, whoever funds Taliban right now is my enemy. Why do we expect the Arabs to be somehow "holier" than we are??
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 10:21:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman: What EXACTLY makes Israel "right" in all this? When you empirically look at a contested strip of land, which BOTH parties have legitimately owned at one time or another, how can one party be right, and teh other party be wrong???
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The Israelis are RIGHT in that they are willing to co-exist with Palestinians and a Palestinian State in that region. The radical Arabs are WRONG in that they do not want to co-exist with Israelis and they do not want an Israeli State in that region. Since both can not fully possess the same land - they have to share parts of it. Israelis are beginning to understand this - Hamas etc. isn't.
I agree that right now, while we fund Israel's war machine, their is NO question teh Arabs are mad at the USA (it makes sense in fact). Are you SURE, I mean REALLY SURE that if we stopped funding the Israeli army, that teh Arabs would still want to attack us?? I cite the 200+ years BEFORE we assumed the role of Israel's nanny. Aside from the isolated incident at Triploi with the Barbary Pirates was there any organized resentment by Arabs of Americans? When we were funding Usama's Mujahadeen in the sixties and seventies, was there any wide resentment of Americans by Arabs? Rhetorical questions: NO, there was not.
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USA wasn't the dominant force in the world as it is now. They resent that - deeply. For the radicals - once they achieve what they claim is their "right" - then it's PAYBACK TIME! Just like the radical blacks here with their reparations nonsense. No, if we cease support to Isreal, they won't rest - there's no rest for the wicked.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 10:27:23 AM EDT
[peep]
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Hey! [b]a3kid[/b], what's up my man?
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Just trying to behave, at work & at home. [:D]
BTW, Miz Hun is in New York for the next four days with my cell phone (mine works fine in NYC, hers doesn't)! So e-mail me if you'd like! Eric The(Friendly)Hun[>]:)]
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Might get around to that this weekend. The wife & older two are going to a Youth Evangelism Celebration in Dayton over the weekend. I'll have Emily & I'm sure she'll keep me hoppin,! [peep] back to work!
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 10:57:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 11:10:46 AM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By garandman: What EXACTLY makes Israel "right" in all this? When you empirically look at a contested strip of land, which BOTH parties have legitimately owned at one time or another, how can one party be right, and teh other party be wrong???
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The Israelis are RIGHT in that they are willing to co-exist with Palestinians and a Palestinian State in that region. The radical Arabs are WRONG in that they do not want to co-exist with Israelis and they do not want an Israeli State in that region. Since both can not fully possess the same land - they have to share parts of it. Israelis are beginning to understand this - Hamas etc. isn't.
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You are confusing "nice" with "right." If one party is willing to share, and the other party isn't, that doesn't make the "un-nice" party wrong. It makes them "un-nice." They both have legitimate claim to the land. The "rightful" owner is whoever won in the last war or micro-war. Possession IS 9/10 of the law.
When we were funding Usama's Mujahadeen in the sixties and seventies, was there any wide resentment of Americans by Arabs? Rhetorical questions: NO, there was not.
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USA wasn't the dominant force in the world as it is now. They resent that - deeply.
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I don't buy that, not that yer sellin' it [;)]. And that theory is suspect when you recall that in the 1960's and 70's (see Mujahadeen, above) the USA was still the same dominant force it is right now, and there was NO resentment by the Arabs. No, the resentment pretty much correlates to our funding of the Israeli military. In the sake of the ONE human that exists in all of Arabia (recognizable hyperbole), we owe it to them to STOP funding Israle's war machine BEFORE we assume they hate us for ANY other reason than the fact that we fund Israels war machine.
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