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Posted: 3/27/2002 1:18:02 PM EDT
Malpaso had an interesting post today. Writing on a string titled "Dumb@ss Gun Shop Owners," he mentioned how many misjudge or just give bad advice on guns for women, especially for self-protection. I've heard it from friends as well. One friend of mine has the standard answer of "get her a .38 Special snub, by either S&W or Colt." Another has the line of "get her a .25, and teach her to shoot the whole mag and run." Does everyone here believe this load of monkey crap? I've been shooting for a lot of years now, and firmly believe that anyone, with proper training, can carry and shoot anything on the market. So I think it best to shop for fit of the weapon's grip, distance to trigger, "concealability," weight, etc. - regardless of the sex of the buyer. What do you all think?
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 1:22:57 PM EDT
I think it's all dependant upon the shooter. I've seen a friend at work's wife shooting a .357Mag and loved it and I've talked to a guy who claimed that he actually fell down from shooting a full auto UZI, not from the recoil but because he was scared. (his words, not mine)
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 1:30:58 PM EDT
I agree that a woman can learn to shoot any gun well enough to defend one's self with sufficient training. The question is how much training. Take my wife-to-be. She shoot okay with a 92fs and a USP45F but can't handle the 1911 Government model. Could she? Sure. But why spend the long hours/frustration/arguments with the 1911 when the USP or the beretta will suffice. Bottom line, a woman can shoot any gun a man can. Just some people are better with some guns and worse with others and instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, just go with what is best. I do not think there is any gun on the market that works better for women than men.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 1:35:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 1:36:02 PM EDT
It is as diverse as with men. However, I will offer ideas (from experience)for a woman's CCW if asked. First recommendations that come to my mind: Concealed on person: Sig Sauer P239 9mm Consealed in purse: Walther P99
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 1:59:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 2:11:31 PM EDT
I believe you will find that the limiting factor is anatomical. However, this does not apply to the weapon, but to the concealment rig. Think of all the curves to work around... Most often, I find myself recommending a Commander for a female for a carry piece. They are easy to tune, have good terminal performance, are easy to find parts for and to take care of, and the single stack mag goes a long way toward concealment or smaller hands (I have square paws and short fingers, so I know what it can be like) I recommend the auto for a few reasons: 1) Lower felt recoil 2) "Hands find Hands" reloading under stress. HOw often are women attacked by groups? 3) Ease of concealability over double-stack auto or revolver. 4) The single action pistol has a better trigger than the DA pistol or revolver, which shows up in increased accuracy and confidence when used. Speaking as a trainer - the initial training is perhaps the most important part of getting a woman to carry. After that, make sure to look for "women's holsters" tailored toward the female anatomy when selecting a rig. Also lean toward the compact sidearms, as a female is generally smaller than most men (CCW for a 5' female with a full-sized GM is a bit tricky...) Handguns I most often recommend... Colt Commander, or variants Colt Defender Colt Mustang or Pockeetlite .380 Auto (OK, so I'm a Colt GM hack...) Recently added to the list: Glock 36 (single-stack .45 Compact.) A woman can shoot anything she damn well pleases as far as I'm concerned, and I will do my best to help make that a reality. When it comes to a carry piece, there are just a few extra factors to consider, that's all! FFZ
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 2:18:01 PM EDT
I believe you will find that the limiting factor is anatomical. However, this does not apply to the weapon, but to the concealment rig. Think of all the curves to work around... Most often, I find myself recommending a Commander for a female for a carry piece. They are easy to tune, have good terminal performance, are easy to find parts for and to take care of, and the single stack mag goes a long way toward concealment or smaller hands (I have square paws and short fingers, so I know what it can be like) I recommend the auto for a few reasons: 1) Lower felt recoil 2) "Hands find Hands" reloading under stress. HOw often are women attacked by groups? 3) Ease of concealability over double-stack auto or revolver. 4) The single action pistol has a better trigger than the DA pistol or revolver, which shows up in increased accuracy and confidence when used. Speaking as a trainer - the initial training is perhaps the most important part of getting a woman to carry. After that, make sure to look for "women's holsters" tailored toward the female anatomy when selecting a rig. Also lean toward the compact sidearms, as a female is generally smaller than most men (CCW for a 5' female with a full-sized GM is a bit tricky...) Handguns I most often recommend... Colt Commander, or variants Colt Defender Colt Mustang or Pockeetlite .380 Auto (OK, so I'm a Colt GM hack...) Recently added to the list: Glock 36 (single-stack .45 Compact.) A woman can shoot anything she damn well pleases as far as I'm concerned, and I will do my best to help make that a reality. When it comes to a carry piece, there are just a few extra factors to consider, that's all! FFZ
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 2:43:34 PM EDT
The thins to take into an account for a CCW rig for a woman is to ask yourself is the gun #1 concealable #2 comfortable #3 and is the person able to shoot the gun accurately without being intimidated by the recoil. If someone wants to get a CCW gun and hasn't shot guns before I would say get 2 guns, a .22 to practice with and the CCW weapon.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 2:51:52 PM EDT
My $.02 worth. My girlfriend is a tough Kentucky bitch (she doesn't mind when I call her that) and I got her a Colt Mustang .380, which she shoots pretty good, and is real comfortable with. She shoots my 92FS 9mm, likes it but thinks it's too hard to hide. Likes the 1911 model .45, but same on concealability as the Beretta. DOES NOT like the S&W 686 .357, thinks it kicks way more than any of the others. With her, I don't have to impress upon her the need, with a .380, to shoot more than once if she has to-the chick already has "automatic fever" (i.e. she LOVES to pull as fast as she can and empty the magazine)[heavy]
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 2:52:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 2:55:39 PM EDT
My wife likes her S&W Ladysmith.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 3:00:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2002 3:07:41 PM EDT by ColonelKlink]
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 3:15:56 PM EDT
All, I see that we all seem to agree on virtually all points. I wonder if the reason for it is self-education (as in looking to find the BEST answer, rather than to accept a single opinion as gospel)? Along that same line, I realize that many just love .380's, and recommend them as CCW's or backups. While I would only recommend 9mm and up, what are your feelings on the subject? CockedandLocked, I should have started this thread in the handguns area. My apologies.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 3:29:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2002 3:31:25 PM EDT by Troy]
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 3:54:25 PM EDT
Excuse me, but I am a female NRA certified shooting instructor, and may have a few pertinent words on this subject. To begin with, handgun inquiries are best handled at the AR15.com handgun site: [url]http://handguns.ar15.com/forums/index.html[/url] Once there, you have 2 relevant forums to post to, one, the Women Shooters Forum: [url]http://handguns.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?id=42[/url] and the Carry Issues Forum: [url]http://handguns.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?id=10[/url] Now, if I may...... nothing below a 9mm or a .38 Special is a decent carry gun. New shooters have their best luck with either a wheel gun or a semi that doesn't require a safety lever to be thrown, i.e. Glock. Caliber is all in what you become accustomed to and familiar with; I carry a 10mm Glock daily, and my Bed Gun is a 29 Smith .44 Mag. I am not a brute beastie, but a small handed female. Some guns are just too friggin big for my hands though, a 1911, or a FAL are just too damned big for me. But most others are very possible, and even successful, with the keyword, *LOTS* of practice. Have your ladies take an NRA Pistol Class, and then rent or borrow various guns to see what they like. Tastes vary. But there is NO "one gun" for women. We are all different. And btw, most of us are excellent shots, with practice and training. Thanks for listening to a lady gun nut, once again.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 4:22:12 PM EDT
Well,me and the old lady have been together(married)for 27 1/2 years. She came from a hunting family. Just cause she grew up around guns,don't mean she is comfortable with them. I have had her shoot everything imaginable. She carries,and can shoot straight,a .22lr auto pistol. She is not afraid of the recoil,or blowing some person into pieces. She is comfortable with it. I would not want her shooting at me with it and isn't that the real question? You may not agree with me,but,if you can shoot it,and shoot it straight,no matter the caliber or action,you can at least protect yourself,or your family,for awhile. Just my 2 cents.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 4:30:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 5:00:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 5:22:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2002 5:24:13 PM EDT by Gunbert]
Desert Eagle in .50 AE. It's gas operated, so recoil is like a .22. Plus she can conceal it in a cocktail dress. edited to add she can also have it gold plated to match her jewlery.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 6:19:58 PM EDT
Gals are picky on guns just like with clothes. What feels right to her--weight, balance, being able to reach safety, slide release, mag release, etc. Size, configuration, auto-- revolver-- exposed hammer--no exposed hammer--where's she gonna carry it--smooth edges that won't tear up clothes or things in her purse. Once she knows what she likes, it can be tailored to her. Grips to fit her hand--thinner might be better on a Govt. 45, thicker might be better on a Small Smith; skateboard tape, checkering, recoil absorbing. sight options depending upon how good her eyes are and if night sights are desired. Trigger work light enough,and especially smooth so that she can be accurate and still stay away from AD. Ammo selection--Glazer and some of the similar ones for light recoil. +P+ for say .380; can she handle it in the bantam weight Smith 38. Lot of different weights and velocities to choose from. One thing I've discovered is once the gals get so they can do ok with a 22, working up to a 38 or a 9 is facilitated by reactive targets. Set out 2 gal. jugs with water, food coloring helps, or 2 watermelons for the two of you. The end effects of her .22 hole vs. your exploding target usually results in, "Hey, I want to do that." What's the magic answer?? Don't get in a hurry, let her shoot a variety and see what works. At least she won't sit you down while she looks for a dress or suit, and all you get to watch from where your chair's located are the fat ladies in the lingerie section.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 6:54:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hellraiser: My wife likes her S&W Ladysmith.
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Ditto
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 6:59:08 PM EDT
I've been shooting for a lot of years now, and firmly believe that anyone, with proper training, can carry and shoot anything on the market.
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I know a few women who would run into real problems trying to use some of the handguns on the market. In particular, the trigger pull on some guns is simply too stiff for women who lack strength in their hands (an especially common problem among older women). No amount of practise is going to overcome this. Also, the gun that is most likely to be used successfully in a stressful situation is usually the one that is simplest to operate. For those two reasons, a small Ruger, Taurus or S&W .357 magnum revolver gets my vote. Also, being able to practise with lightly loaded .38 rounds is an advantage, since it allows the new owner to gradually get used to the blast and recoil.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 7:11:02 PM EDT
You dumbasses have never been up against a woman when her she's cold and wet and her hair is all flyin' around and her kids are screamin'! Watch out! She'll pull out a lawyer on yur ass! He'll introduce you to a judge and a cop and Fiend of the Court case worker. I would rather stand down range 15 yards with a cigarette and a blindfold and any of the above named pistols in her hand and let her have at it. Best concealed weapon? Lawyer.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 9:53:15 PM EDT
I have a Glock 19! And, even though my guys (hubby and his friends) think that I am absolutly crazy, I also have a lil kel-tec32 that I adore.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 10:02:57 PM EDT
Glock 27, hands down. Small, lightweight, easy to conceal, relatively light trigger pull, powerful cartridge, negligible felt recoil, etc. Why do i say this? Well my mom carries one as a backup and is an excellent shot. Plus i know plenty of female officers qualify and carry them. Training is what's most important, not the weapon.
Link Posted: 3/27/2002 11:29:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KheSanhDon: Well,me and the old lady have been together(married)for 27 1/2 years. She came from a hunting family. Just cause she grew up around guns,don't mean she is comfortable with them. I have had her shoot everything imaginable. She carries,and can shoot straight,a .22lr auto pistol. She is not afraid of the recoil,or blowing some person into pieces. She is comfortable with it. I would not want her shooting at me with it and isn't that the real question? You may not agree with me,but,if you can shoot it,and shoot it straight,no matter the caliber or action,you can at least protect yourself,or your family,for awhile. Just my 2 cents.
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I think this is the nail on the head statement. While I admit if I present a gun I intend fully on killing who I am shooting at, many women do not share this feeling, and flat refuse to. They merely want a fighting chance. Even a .22 provides that. If she can put 10 rounds center mass, most folks are done, and if they are not, they aren't gonna run so well with one or both of their lungs deflated. If she is willing to go bigger, and can conceal the gun, great. But a .22 beats a hairbrush everytime.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 3:58:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 4:27:00 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
Women I teach are allowed to shoot any of my weapons, but since the greatest weapon IMHO sets between ones ears, this is my suggestion. Never give up the element of [b]SUPRISE[/b]. I suggest/train ladies to purchase a good handbag which will hold a revolver horizontally in a center pocket (away from that stuff women find essential to their daily lives, nail files, lipstick, 4 sets of earings, bottle of hair-spray, electric bills and I know there's a pen in here somewhere) and NEVER take it out. All of the good producers of fine quality leather bags (that I have spoken with) will replace the handbag for zip if used in this manner. Get your hand on the pistol (while still in the handbag, do not remove it), which will tend to negate any apprehension felt by whatever the situation may be and wait. Should the need arise, feint compliance to robbery or whatever and when perp is within range offer up your purse, lead particles first. The closer the better as powder burns only support the need for deadly force in self-defence situations. While revolvers work best with this type senario, I do not believe a womans choice should be limited to revolvers only. There's no rule that says a woman can only own one handgun (my sister loves the Detonics 45acp and is quite deadly w/ it, but that said, she agrees that for her, the purse/revolver [b]SURPRISE[/b] tactic allows her to carry on a daily life that includes a daughter, work and active life in which having no-one know is paramount). One of the things most missed in everyday carry situations are the little things like, "Meg, hand me my wallet/check-book outta my purse" or what do I do when I have to go to the bath room, for guys it's extremely embarassing to drop your pants only to have your pistol hit the floor. While this is my opinon related to best concealed carry / self-defense situations for women generally the tactic of [b]SUPRISE[/b] should never be compromised, IMHO. You get the idea? Mike
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:25:06 AM EDT
your all wrong, it's a credit card
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:45:14 AM EDT
I think that my girl would prefer to carry DonR's M-16....with a velvet overcoat for concealed......
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:09:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:13:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: My own personal opinion is that the best CARRY guns for ANY inexperienced shooter are steel .357 revolvers (with .38 ammo) or 9mm semi-autos. The brand & model aren't that big of a deal, as long as the person familiarizes themselves with the controls, reloading, and stoppage-clearing proceedures. I've yet to train a female who couldn't handle either of these guns, after a bit of practice with a Ruger .22LR to get the basics down. -Troy
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Ditto. See my wife's post in the womens forum. She is learning the fundamentals with a Browning Buckmark that serves as a training gun/camp gun. She has also shown a preference for my GP100 over various semi-autos due to the hand filling weight that soaks up .38 recoil. Let her learn the way you did, then choose what she wants, the same as you would.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:35:36 AM EDT
Mr_Wilson, I have exactly the purse that you describe, and have carried it for 4 years now. It is a largish heavy leather shoulder bag, designed for concealed carry, with the center velcro side accessible pocket, and an extra thick shoulder strap. The gun sits horizontally, as you describe, in it's own velcro secured holster within the bag. It conceals the fat little Glock 10mm perfectly, and is invisible to all that may look into the purse. Only the extra weight gives a clue. I find this works perfectly for all situations, and I never have to remember to bring the gun, it is *always* there. You are absolutley correct about the tactic you describe as well. Have one's hand already *in* the center compartment in a possible threat situation, and just cram it against the bad guy's chest, and haul on the trigger. Even if you are caught off guard, the velcro access is very fast, and the grip of the gun is immediately in your hand. To compensate for lack of aim, just shove it against the bad guy, and shoot. A hit *will* be scored. The shoulder strap is long enough to loop it over your head with one arm through to prevent easy purse snatchings, and the strap is way too heavy and thick to be cut through quickly. This carry setup works for all seasons, and all types of clothing. It was pricey when new, about $200, but I have carried it constantly for 4 years, and it doesn't even show any wear yet. Very well made, and I bought it at a gun show. And yeah, if you have to shoot through the other side, the company will replace it for you, so they can show yet another bag that has aided a woman in defending her life.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:19:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 7:19:35 AM EDT by mr_wilson]
Hannah, Smart lady, and thanks for the kudos. Quality security is not cheap, but generally lasts (with proper care) for the rest of your life and to the detriment of scum-bags. Mike
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 11:07:01 AM EDT
"Men always ask me to recommend a handgun for their wives to carry. They want something that is small, lightweight, and easily concealable. They also want it to have low recoil, mild muzzle blast, and high capacity. To top it off it must still be very effective. I tell them that if I knew of such a firearm, I would be carrying it myself."
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 3:18:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 3:25:07 PM EDT
Col. Klink, Think Taurus Tatanium .38+p (14 oz) or Kahr P9 (16 oz).
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 3:54:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 4:00:10 PM EDT by Nekkid80]
It has to be concealable. It has to be reliable. She should be able to hit the target with it. It doesn't matter what gun is used, if she can't hit the target. [peep] btw-Don't let a purse grabbing thief catch you with your pant's down.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 3:55:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2002 3:57:42 PM EDT by ronin47]
The wife of one of my shooting buddies shoots his S&W 686 .357Magnum without a problem. Of course, she wouldn't be able to conceal it because she's a tiny wisp of a thing. But if she can handle full power .357 loads, I don't think a mini .40 or 9mm or snub .38 or .357 is going to a problem for her. On the other hand, my ex-wife couldn't handle anything more than a .22LR Ruger target pistol. Now that was probably more psychological than physical but it was still a very REAL limitation. In other words, it depends upon the shooter. If the shooter (male or female) is comfortable shooting the firearm, can shoot it reasonably accurately, and can carry it relatively easily, it's the right gun (as opposed to no gun at all). That said, whenever somebody asks me for my advice in person, I usually take them to the range and run through as many rentals as they'll let me. For women, I typically start with compact or subcompact autos like a Glock 23 or maybe even 27. But some have had to go down to something PPK sized. Others have stepped up to 1911's. Despite the small size of a few of the women I've advised, they always had the option of purse carry (as was already mentioned here) -- something smaller guys generally don't get away with.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 10:57:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: Francisco, It's called the Glock 19. Get the Trijicon night sights and at least one Drop Free 15-round mag for it. Fill it with 16 quality 3rd-Gen hollowpoints (your choice), and carry it. -Troy
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Troy, the Glock fails my other (unstated) criteria: single action trigger, frame mounted thumb safety (down to fire), and good ergonomics. Some guns that fit these criteria are the BHP, 1911 (any size), and the Colt 380s (Mustang and Government 380). The HK USPs might also meet these criteria.
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