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Posted: 3/25/2002 3:19:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2002 4:31:33 PM EDT by MarineGrunt]
I saw the scrolling news ticker today that LtCmdr. Speicher (still suspected MIA) was shot down by an Iraqi [b]JET[/b] the first day of the Gulf War. WTF??? All Iraq had was POS MiG-21s and 23s I thought. LtCmdr Speicher was flying an F-18 I believe. Is this just BS?
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 3:33:11 PM EDT
I didn't know any of our planes were shot down by Iraqi planes. Actually thought they were too busy flying to Iran to bother fighting. I'm thinking Iraq also had some Dassault Mirage(sp?) jet fighters ??
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 3:34:53 PM EDT
Weird, I could have sworn the most Iraq's air forces did was go down in flames. However, they did have some MiG-29s that gave a bit of trouble on the first day. They also had some MiG-25s and Mirage F1s I believe.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 3:36:40 PM EDT
I wasn't aware of it either. I don't think it's even possible without gross negligence. Fox News probably screwed up.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 3:39:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2002 3:41:58 PM EDT by Mr-T]
I did a search on the net for the guy and it looks like he was shot down by a SAM rather than another jet. At one point he was reclassified from KIA to MIA. Edit: Unless, of course, this air to air kill is some sort of new information.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 3:42:13 PM EDT
There's always a lucky shot (golden BB) or equipment failure that can bring down the best of the best. And they did have some good Russian and French hardware too. Even with a screwed up leader and military, you can have individuals that are better than the system can produce.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 3:56:47 PM EDT
I heard the same thing on Fox a couple of days ago. They have been saying for years there wasn't an air to air shootdown of our aircraft during the war. I'm assuming it's new info.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 4:01:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2002 4:01:58 PM EDT by Grock]
Whats the diference between an Iraqi pilot and an American pilot? An American pilot breaks ground and flies into the wind... [8D]
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 4:06:29 PM EDT
All, I believe that FOX mixed up the concept of "anti-aircraft artillery" with "air-to-air." The news special I saw on LtCol Speicher had him being reported as down by AAA.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 4:14:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MarineGrunt: I saw the scrolling news ticker today that LtCol. Speicher (still suspected MIA) was shot down by an Iraqi [b]JET[/b] the first day of the Gulf War. WTF??? All Iraq had was POS MiG-21s and 23s I thought. LtCOL Speicher was flying an F-18 I believe. Is this just BS?
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Others have mentioned it was probably an error, but if I remember correctly Iraq had a number of Mig-29's (and possibly a few MIG-31s). We shot down a few of them in the beginning and some of the US Pilots were pretty surprised at how poorly the Iraqi handled their aircraft, especially when the Russians were training them. Many of the aircraft that the Iraqi moved out of the country to keep them safe from destruction during the war were their top line fighters...MIG-29s.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 4:15:11 PM EDT
I vividly recall the Michael speicher shootdown, as he was the first American casualty of the war, and I was glued to every tv & newspaper around at the time. Initial reports were that he was downed by an SA-2. Was this report inaccurate? Or did foxnews screw the pooch? Whichever, I think we ought to find out what became of this pilot. Honor commands that we do no less.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 4:17:37 PM EDT
In the first day or three Iraqi aircraft did come up to try. Most never really had much of a chance. A lot of the equipment was old and the pilots were not remotely as well prepared as the Coalition pilots, and certainly not as well prepared as ours. Some of their aircraft though were not crap equipment by any means. The Mirage F-1 and 1000 are pretty capable. I remember in those first days an F/A-18 entered the merge with a Mig-25 and only the Mig came out. In-close, the Mig-25 is still a formidable aircraft today, one of the only aircraft flying that can pull an 8-G turn until it runs out of gas. I don't remember if that was Scott Speicher's F/A-18 or not though. Pat
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 4:18:07 PM EDT
actually there is a very strong likely hood that speicher was shot down by a mig-25 on that fisrt day. it is still disputed however if it was AAA or the mig, as no one is really quite sure. the iraqis claim that it was one of thire mig 25's , and there was a mig-25 that was giveing some eagle jocks a hrad time in that area where he was shot down. Remeber guys, even though the mig-25 is old, it is still a very capable interceptor. Unofficially it can do more then mach3, and its missles have a longer range then the sparrow or amraam.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 4:20:06 PM EDT
Speicher was a navy Commander, not a Lt. Colonel (no Colonels in the navy). He was shot down by AA or a SAM, not in a dogfight. Here is one story about him: [url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/03/16/speicher.pow/index.html[/url]
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 4:22:51 PM EDT
Neilfj, the Iraqi's did have some number of Mig-29's. I don't remember which version, but one at least was shot down by an Air Force F-15 (Sparrow I think). I believe the remainder were either killed on the ground or made it to Iran (where they still are I think). Pat
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 4:32:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By marvl: Speicher was a navy Commander, not a Lt. Colonel (no Colonels in the navy). He was shot down by AA or a SAM, not in a dogfight. Here is one story about him: [url]http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/03/16/speicher.pow/index.html[/url]
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oops. I knew that. Fixed.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 6:38:43 PM EDT
I'm not an aviation expert, but I thought the mig-25 wasn't very maneuverable. It wasn't designed to be. It was built to shoot down B-70's which never entered service. They're really fast, heavy and big, but not maneuverable.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 7:19:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 7:48:30 PM EDT
... Iraqi AA missles were quite effective during the first part of the Gulf war. Our HARM's had difficulty with the instant-on-like feature of their surface to air missles deployed. These were relatively recent Russian designs and our intelligence community didn't know Saddam had them. Rumor has it that it was one of these that downed our fighter, not air power.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 9:08:15 PM EDT
It was originally thought that he got shot down by ground fire, either AAA or a missile. After the war they went back and reviewed the AWACS tapes, and they decided there was a possiblity that he got nailed by a lurking Iraqi MIG-25. See http://www.ngwrc.org/news/content/FriJan110827242002.asp for an account. Note that they didn't have a positive ID on the aircraft at the time.
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