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Posted: 3/24/2002 9:09:46 PM EDT
As we ponder the demise of our Great Nation at some future date... [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=103338[/url] and most of us believe we will go the ways of the Roman Empire and every other nation who became great, did great things, then fell from within due to it's own excesses. Just as surely some group of people will rear up, declare defiance, fight and win. They will build a great nation. Who do you think it will be? And remember "we" were just a insignificant British colony. It can happen anywhere. I wonder about the Greeks one day reclaiming their glory days. They were once the freest men in history, even more so thatn us at our height of freedom (pre Johnson Administration.) I also wonder about one of the independent states of the former Soviet Union finally getting fed up enough to go their own way.
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 9:18:13 PM EDT
TEXAS will be!
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 9:23:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By stockton: TEXAS will be!
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Hell...........lets do this!!!! What's up Steyr?? Lots of post lately?? Are you bored or what?? Sgtar15
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 9:29:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 9:30:16 PM EDT
There will be no next great nation. This is as good as it gets. Once the USA self destructs, and one day it will, thats it.
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 9:31:36 PM EDT
I hope (and pray, in my own way) that we, as the United States of America, will always be the greatest nation, from now until the end of time.
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 9:37:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 9:38:28 PM EDT
Are you looking for a new Superpower? A new dynasty would take some serious aggression. It all takes acquisition and this country nor it's allies will allow the kind of naked aggression that it would take to form another "Great Nation" Or on second thought, maybe canada?
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 9:39:08 PM EDT
France... because the meek shall inherit the Earth.
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 9:39:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2002 9:40:09 PM EDT by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 9:41:32 PM EDT
This is the most interesting question I've heard in a long time. It is absolutely a legitimate question as there will be a [b]next[/b] great nation. Of course, I don't have a clue who it will be. Possibly some form of the European Union, though I doubt that. I hope it's not someone with the biggest sticks/rocks, but always a possibility. Whoever invents/produces the next energy source that replaces oil? Hmmm....
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 10:00:25 PM EDT
The greek empire was built on the backs of slaves..as was the roman..The brits treated most non british like crap, adding to their demise. As each nation loses its greatness it isn't immediately replaced by the next "great nation". The US didn't come into its own till over 100 years AFTER the Constitution was ratified. So anyway..if the definition of "great" is as loose as who's the most expansive...I'll bet China.
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 10:08:23 PM EDT
They have a LARGE manufacturing economy base- look at all of the crap they sell here. Many corporations are expanding to the country. They have a large military. They already have a space program. The don't rely upon other countries for financial aid. My guess is also China.
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 10:08:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By moNgReL66: So anyway..if the definition of "great" is as loose as who's the most expansive...I'll bet China.
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I'll check to the raiser.
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 10:11:57 PM EDT
Turkey or Brazil. Those are my two SWAG's. I'm staying away from the obvious guesses of India or China, because while they are populous, they're going to have enough trouble feeding their own people to worry about the world outside of their own region.z
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 10:31:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By zoom: India or China, because while they are populous, they're going to have enough trouble feeding their own
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All the more reason they will be expanding their horizons.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 4:40:05 AM EDT
The Lunar Republic. [(:|)]
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 5:00:46 AM EDT
The age of the nation-state is over, over with us that is. The next great superpower will be one built on religion, the one with the most ardent adherents will be the winner. Never bet against Islam, they got some of the kookiest beleivers out there. When it comes down to fish-or-cut-bait time, nothing trumps your belief structure like someone who is willing to die for his.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 5:05:53 AM EDT
This is a great question. If by great you mean military power then its anyones guess. If great you mean raising its people to a level of dignity and freedom there will never be any greater than America. I may get flamed, but America's roots are different than all before and I imagine those that will come after. The basic premise that God exercised His pleasure in creating this great nation is evident. I do not think that He is finished shaping and teaching America. We are certainly in woeful times but we have the advantage of acting upon our roots and enjoying God's blessings again. What other country has that pivotal advantage?
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 5:06:43 AM EDT
I'm putting all my money on Puerto Rico.[BD]
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 5:17:08 AM EDT
Djibouti.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 5:17:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: As we ponder the demise of our Great Nation at some future date... [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=103338[/url] and most of us believe we will go the ways of the Roman Empire and every other nation who became great, did great things, then fell from within due to it's own excesses. Just as surely some group of people will rear up, declare defiance, fight and win. They will build a great nation. Who do you think it will be?
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No one nation! It will be "a new order for the ages", or a New World Order. A group of nations, led by the coporate and banking power of the United States and European Union...a "new" Socialist order. Listen to George Bushs speech from the recent UN meeting in Mexico a few days ago!!
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 5:30:46 AM EDT
I have no idea which nation will be the NEXT great nation, and I have doubts that there will even [u]be[/u] a 'next' great nation. [b]I believe, therefore, that the United States will be the [u]last[/u] 'great' nation.[/b] To paraphrase the Madame de Pompadour, the mistress of King Louis XV (and always wrongly attributed to him): [i][b]'Apres nous, le deluge![/b][/i] [b]'After us, the flood.'[/b] Eric The(SillyMe)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 5:31:13 AM EDT
There will be no "Great" nations anymore after USA falls. The nation-state concept is fairly new in civilized history and is waning fast (i.e. EU, NATO). Rather, I think a "union" of ideologies will be the next step in civilization. Technology is uniting spatially distant factions on the planet that in previous times would never efficiently communicate or coordinate with each other. National identity is being lost/melded all around the world. Borders, language, ideology and most importantly economics are blending many peoples from larger global regions and erasing the concept of the nation-state. [b]Once America falls, there will be no "greatness" left - only wider interdependancy which is antithetical to greatness.[/b] National independance and soveriegnty is becoming antiquated and seen more and more as an obstacle to worldwide "progress". America as a nation won't fall from dominance until there is clearly no other national replacement for us on the world scene (including China). Then the One-World folks can ensure their NewWorldOrder can be propped into position relatively unopposed.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 5:33:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: There will be no "Great" nations anymore after USA falls. The nation-state concept is fairly new in civilized history and is waning fast (i.e. EU, NATO). Rather, I think a "union" of ideologies will be the next step in civilization. Technology is uniting spatially distant factions on the planet that in previous times would never efficiently communicate or coordinate with each other. National identity is being lost/melded all around the world. Borders, language, ideology and most importantly economics are blending many peoples from larger global regions and erasing the concept of the nation-state. [b]Once America falls, there will be no "greatness" left - only wider interdependancy which is antithetical to greatness.[/b] National independance and soveriegnty is becoming antiquated and seen more and more as an obstacle to worldwide "progress". America as a nation won't fall from dominance until there is clearly no other national replacement for us on the world scene (including China). Then the One-World folks can ensure their NewWorldOrder can be propped into position relatively unopposed.
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Outstanding...and in a nutshell.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 5:49:35 AM EDT
I really belive the the European Union will be a force to be reckoned with. They are building up a huge amount of economic muscle. If/when England goes with the Euro, we might be alive to see the rise of a new golden age in Europe. China is going to self destruct. They have been having a hell of a time trying to keep their people happy. 15 to 20 years from now, and we might see a new China. All of their old leadership is dying off. New younger leaders might bring new ideas to China. Av.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 6:06:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 6:13:42 AM EDT
Cyberpunk With a high total body radiation count.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 6:18:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 6:21:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 6:23:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 6:34:59 AM EDT
How come we have Chinatown in every State and every country...My guess is also China. [:(]
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 6:41:32 AM EDT
I don't think that the US is going anywhere in the number 1 spot for the next 50 or so years. I also beleive that we will improve, and that the socialist melt down that so many on this board are expecting will be overted. Conservatism is expiriancing a comeback, and political climates can change with the seasons. I think when the late great USA ceases to go, it will be a phase shift of what we are, not a break up or melt down, such as the USA annexing, or uniting with Mexico and Canada, and us ceasing to be the USA and becoming United America. The Only other threat I see to the US comes around 50 years from now when our colonies on the Moon and Mars eventually declare independence. Then we will have come full circle from being the colony, to the colonizer. It is only a matter of time until over the internet and TV we hear from the ruddy plains of Mars an echo of our past, and some future patriot of the new world uttering the imortal words, "We hold these truths self evident...."
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 6:48:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: is Murphwada still in the running?
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...just biding my time....
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 6:58:49 AM EDT
OK by Great Nation I didn't necessarily mean the next Dominant Super Power. I was wondering who would declare themselves FREE and become great. They do NOT have to dominate the world. I am asking who will live outside the socialist norm? And I just don't buy the "it's all over" theory. The current global socialism is no more threatening than the religious dominant stranglehold of the dark ages. No one was exempted from church authority unless you lived in the rainforest and ate bugs. Who will pull a Switzerland and say "F all you guys. We are Free and don't want anything to do with you." Of course these days the Swiss aren't even socialism free.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 7:01:26 AM EDT
I agree that the United States of America will be the last 'great nation'. I also agree with The_Macallan. It's gonna be a NWO BUT with us in the drivers seat. China has incredible 'human resources' and can't even use half the land they have. Hell, they can hardly feed all their population. Their technology (in general) is sorely lacking. We can still kick their ass.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 7:02:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: OK by Great Nation I didn't necessarily mean the next Dominant Super Power. I was wondering who would declare themselves FREE and become great. They do NOT have to dominate the world. I am asking who will live outside the socialist norm? And I just don't buy the "it's all over" theory. The current global socialism is no more threatening than the religious dominant stranglehold of the dark ages. No one was exempted from church authority unless you lived in the rainforest and ate bugs. Who will pull a Switzerland and say "F all you guys. We are Free and don't want anything to do with you." Of course these days the Swiss aren't even socialism free.
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If that's what you mean, than it will definetly be an off world colony.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 7:02:56 AM EDT
The Swiss also just voted to join the UN....
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 7:17:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Armed_Scientist: I don't think that the US is going anywhere in the number 1 spot for the next 50 or so years. ... It is only a matter of time until over the internet and TV we hear from the ruddy plains of Mars an echo of our past, and some future patriot of the new world uttering the imortal words, "We hold these truths self evident...."
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i agree. freeedom has a habit of springing up in the most unlikely places.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 7:19:59 AM EDT
My guess is China, and that scares me. Robby
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 7:57:09 AM EDT
it's not going to be China, China has too much baggage. To start a new world power you need something new, unique from what is already in existence. The United States was made possible by the discovery of the new world and the vast untapped continent. The frontier spirit and need for self reliance fed self determination and feelings of independance. After 200 years, the continent has been thouroughly populated and we have increasingly come to depend on others for our economic and social welfare. This process makes our commercial society possible (due to specialization) but also make us less independant as individuals. It's a trade off, in a pre-industrial frontier society, maximum freedom is possible because everyone exist independantly, both economically and politically. Which is why to construct another free state we need a new frontier and people who are willing to separate themselves from their homeland and familiar society to explroe and settle it. As for military superpower, it's very likely China will arm itself to the teeth. While the government is communist, they've been very rapidly liberalizing the economy and living standards really improved a lot in the last ten years. Their new mandate for ruling isn't economic equality but nationalism. If you will consider the incidents over the downed US Navy plane and the accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy in the Balkans, and the sort of outrage provoked in China. Things are a lot different from 1989 when Tian An Men square occured. If you'll talk to some mainland chinese people, you'll see that what very much rallies a lot of people behind the government is the issue of Taiwan. And then there's the issue of Tibet which even the Taiwanese agree belong to China. The new mandate for the "communist" government isn't communism, but nationalism, a sort of national socialism if you will. China is one of those countries that had been an empire in the past and seeks to regain its former status.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 7:59:16 AM EDT
I know it won't be china. Why? Because in the next 10 to 20 years we will go to war with China. We will win.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 8:09:36 AM EDT
The Roman empire fell because of very bad economic policies and repressive taxes which force farmers to hoard thier produce, since they could not find a profitable market in Rome. So many city-dwellers in Rome literally left for the country side where they could get access to food. As the cities depopluated, education and national identity fell to the wayside. The once literate and sophisticated Romans became pesants for landowners, and thus began the Feudal societies of Europe. The USA will remain pre-eminate if, and only if, we not go socialists and remain capitalists.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 8:17:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Trigger: How come we have Chinatown in every State and every country...My guess is also China. [:(]
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There's also McDonalds resturaunts in China, Paris, Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Moscow, Isreal, Egypt, Japan, etc. In Beijing there are almost 40 McDonalds, as well as Pizza Huts, KFCs, TGIFs, and a Hard Rock Cafe. They crave American-style movies and music and are probably 10-20 years (or less) away from becoming fully corrupted by American Pop Culture.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 8:38:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2002 8:39:43 AM EDT by The_Macallan]
Originally Posted By Armed_Scientist: If that's what you mean, than it will definetly be an off world colony.
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The problem with the Lunar/Martian/SpaceStation off-world colony scenario is it's generally inaccessable to private exploration. Very different from the Pilgrims who founded Jamestown to escape the British Monarchy - setting the tradition of American Independance into motion. The Puritans were fiercely independant to the point of extremism, planting seeds of strong personal independance and morality in our new culture, the fruits of which are now in full bloom (and are actually starting to rot on the vine). Any realistic fledgling space colony would HAVE to be sanctioned by NASA or EU or UN. They would hand-pick the colonists to be good NWO socialists to set into motion a new colonial tradition of "equality, interdependance and collectivism". No, I don't see a group of future space colonist/collectivists that were hand-picked by the Gov't or UN suddenly "finding God" and saying FU to the EU.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 8:51:29 AM EDT
I don't see martian or lunar colonies any time soon. Why? Minerals and other extractive processes can be done more cheaply on earth, without tens of billions of dollars in startup costs. The societies built there would also require lots of complex social and administrative structures. There would be little room, contrary to what Heinlen would have you believe, for some guy with a spaceship to go off and colonize; everyone in space would require more people in support roles. A terraformed Mars would be the only way to create a civil society of small organizations, and that's centuries away. The next great "free country" is likely to be not a country at all, but rather a borderless, placeless, virtual society. Anybody from China to Switzerland to the US could join.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 11:11:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2002 11:11:39 AM EDT by Benjamin0001]
. After 200 years, the continent has been thouroughly populated and we have increasingly come to depend on others for our economic and social welfare. This process makes our commercial society possible (due to specialization) but also make us less independant as individuals. It's a trade off, in a pre-industrial frontier society, maximum freedom is possible because everyone exist independantly, both economically and politically. Which is why to construct another free state we need a new frontier and people who are willing to separate themselves from their homeland and familiar society to explroe and settle it
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The Nation is not even half full, territory wise. There is a great amount of space left between the east side of California all the way past Oklahoma and even further east probably until you get to Alabama. I would say that NorthEast is crowded. But upper Maine is not. Florida is but not entirely. Look at it this way. China has 1,000,000,000+ in a space that is less then The territory of the US. We have 300,000,000. Canada and the Northwest Territories are almost completely empty. Alaska is pretty much completely Empty. The US still has tons of room. Especially when you consider the North American Continent. The nation is at a dawn of new Technologies. SuperConductors/ Materials Science Fussion/ Power Engineering. NanoTechnology Genetics/ Expanding mans life free of Disease and greater Health and Mental ability for longer duration during ones life. Pitfalls to America's Course are: Giving away Self Determination through chaining the destiny of the US to the UN. Undermanned and underEquipted Military. Secular Humanistic pseudo-religeon. Sacrificing Individual Liberties for "THE SOCIAL GOOD" European Union: hmmm, You have a group of countries (which Switzerland Just joined) where you have a Huge Tax Percentage, Huge beauracracy. Russia, is buy itself and is although a nuclear power are struggling to turn the corner between totalitarianism to capitalism. Ukraine , has an Eye toward some sort of treaty with the west. China. Huge Manpower, Poverty (relatively), small nuclear arsenal, tiny navy, and they are improving and expanding their entire military clear across the board with a stated goal of reannexing Taiwan. It is interesting that the US is making sure the Philipines are Guerilla free as the philipines is due south of TAIWAN. It is also interesting that many Taliban and Al Queada have reportedly fled to Indonesia which is south of the philiphines. I don't know if all this activity in the Pacific means anything. The US is here to Stay if we can get through the most dangerous war we have ever fought.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 11:34:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: There will be no "Great" nations anymore after USA falls. The nation-state concept is fairly new in civilized history and is waning fast (i.e. EU, NATO). Rather, I think a "union" of ideologies will be the next step in civilization. Technology is uniting spatially distant factions on the planet that in previous times would never efficiently communicate or coordinate with each other. National identity is being lost/melded all around the world. Borders, language, ideology and most importantly economics are blending many peoples from larger global regions and erasing the concept of the nation-state. [b]Once America falls, there will be no "greatness" left - only wider interdependancy which is antithetical to greatness.[/b] National independance and soveriegnty is becoming antiquated and seen more and more as an obstacle to worldwide "progress". America as a nation won't fall from dominance until there is clearly no other national replacement for us on the world scene (including China). Then the One-World folks can ensure their NewWorldOrder can be propped into position relatively unopposed.
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My thoughts EXACTLY! We are defining great as independent and all of the other things that make America great. Well, guys, the world trend is toward [b]globalism[/b], and is anti-"American Dream" in every way possible. The current movement is not about Washington's Great Rule, or personal independence from government, or rights under Natural Law, or anything like that. [b][i]The United States of America is an antiquated stand-by from old world thinking.[/b][/i] The next great power will be the UN.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 12:01:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By liberty86: No one nation! It will be "a new order for the ages", or a New World Order. A group of nations, led by the coporate and banking power of the United States and European Union...a "new" Socialist order. Listen to George Bushs speech from the recent UN meeting in Mexico a few days ago!!
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Bingo! 666
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 12:13:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Armed_Scientist: If that's what you mean, than it will definetly be an off world colony.
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The problem with the Lunar/Martian/SpaceStation off-world colony scenario is it's generally inaccessable to private exploration. Very different from the Pilgrims who founded Jamestown to escape the British Monarchy - setting the tradition of American Independance into motion. The Puritans were fiercely independant to the point of extremism, planting seeds of strong personal independance and morality in our new culture, the fruits of which are now in full bloom (and are actually starting to rot on the vine). Any realistic fledgling space colony would HAVE to be sanctioned by NASA or EU or UN. They would hand-pick the colonists to be good NWO socialists to set into motion a new colonial tradition of "equality, interdependance and collectivism". No, I don't see a group of future space colonist/collectivists that were hand-picked by the Gov't or UN suddenly "finding God" and saying FU to the EU.
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You're right that right now acess to space keeps it from being avalible to the general public. That will change, with the advent of nanotechnology, the possibility of a space elevator in the last 5 years has gone from a scifi dream, to a engineering possibility. Such a project could begin in as little as 10 years. RLVs are another possibility. Even with todays launch prices there are still metals that would make economic sense to return to earth, gold, platnium, Uranium, and diamonds for example. The first 3 are known to exist in massive quantites in the asteroid belt and on the moon and suspected to be on Mars. An active colonial economy won't be viable for 10 to 20 years, but it will be, and frontiers always bring out the best in mankind. Actually, with a space race in the works between the US and the PRC, it might happen sooner then tht. The other point I forgot to make was that one of the things that will keep us on top, is the Nanotechnology revolution that is about to take place. It will change the way we live more then even the industrial revolution. Nanotech was developed here, thus the patents are here, so the money comes here.
Link Posted: 3/25/2002 3:45:28 PM EDT
Armed Scientist, in that you're mistaken. You underestimate the Chinese ability to pirate technology, lol. Anyway, the cost of aerospace technologies is high because we have not reached the point of truly efficient propulsion systems. Just like computing wasn't really very economical except for a few large organizations until it became efficient enough for smaller organizations to take advantage of it. There will be a critical point of fuel-impulse ratio that will make aerospace technologies sufficiently cheap to launch its own revolution just like computers did. What makes this country great is the system that allows individuals to profit from investment and ingenuity. Given the promise of spaceward expansion, I highly doubt that aerospace technology can be relegated to government and large corporations for long. Benjamin001, what I mean by frontier is not related to population density. It's more a mentality than anything else. Regardless of where you are in the United States, you are bound by American laws, you pay American taxes, you use American dollars. Chances are, you buy your food, you buy your clothes, you didn't build your own house, etc. You can live in some vast desert with no one around for miles, you're still under the thumb of uncle Sam. Colonists who grow their own food, filter their own water, build their own shelters, and are more or less self sufficient will have a much different mentality than some guy who lives in the middle of no where but depend on others for his every need and want.
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