Marine blasts Navy dining traditions: Time to end centuries-old officer-enlisted separation on ships - Page 6

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Marine blasts Navy dining traditions: Time to end centuries-old officer-enlisted separation on ships (Page 6 of 9)

Posted: 4/22/2010 7:17:41 AM EDT

[#1]

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Didn't we used to have segregated units on the basis of race? Why not go back to that? After all, so many of you people argue not to 'mess with tradition.'

That's just straight up trolling.

No, it's the exact same. People are being separated on basis of class.

The rank structure is separated for important and distinct functional purposes which are not arbitrary.
Separation by sex or race would definitely be arbitrary.

Using the term class is also improper.
Class dentoes some sort of hierachical level of worth.
The different segments of the rank structure are all equally worthy.
The mere fact that one can promote and can move between "classes" destroys the class/caste argument.

Yes, I agree...but in terms of responsibilities and command roles, not in having different dining facilities.

Hell, why not have different bathrooms for officers only? Talk about reinforcing the idea of 'second class' among the enlisted.

We have different schools, too.

Posted: 4/22/2010 7:18:28 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Didn't we used to have segregated units on the basis of race? Why not go back to that? After all, so many of you people argue not to 'mess with tradition.'

That's just straight up trolling.

No, it's the exact same. People are being separated on basis of class.

The rank structure is separated for important and distinct functional purposes which are not arbitrary.
Separation by sex or race would definitely be arbitrary.

Using the term class is also improper.
Class dentoes some sort of hierachical level of worth.
The different segments of the rank structure are all equally worthy.
The mere fact that one can promote and can move between "classes" destroys the class/caste argument.

Yes, I agree...but in terms of responsibilities and command roles, not in having different dining facilities.

Hell, why not have different bathrooms for officers only? Talk about reinforcing the idea of 'second class' among the enlisted.

We do.

LOL

And in other news, the Navy has just taken a title away from the Air Force...

Back to DU with thee.

Posted: 4/22/2010 7:24:09 AM EDT

[#3]

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Us very important officers will also work 16 hour days, most of it paperwork, but take lots of private naps in our rooms and eat the finest food served to us––because we are gods and you are clods.

The food is the same between the ward room and the mess decks. People detailed to mess duty, do mess duty and not their normal duties for the 30 days (normal assignment length on the ships I have been on).

The one issue I have how the ward room on some ships are run, is the usage of junior troops to wait on the members of the mess. Make the food and put it out, there is no need to do what some ships do of having the junior troops bring what amounts to a menu to your table, than bring the food out that you select and later bus the tables.

I tend to agree with that point.

As do I.

It always bothered me to have the guys serve me. I picked up my own plates and returned them to the galley, and always went out of my way to thank the guys who were serving. If I could get my own plate, I did.

Just for the sake of curiosity, when did the Navy get rid of the Philippine mess stewards?

Posted: 4/22/2010 7:24:44 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
ETA: Actually, at reading the article closer, he says he's served on many ships. Odd that he waits until he's about to retire to bring it up, if it's so personally offensive to him.

I think it was more he expected to be treated like an equal as he was invited to this 'conference' as a leader - but doesn't get to dine with the General and other leaders because he's a (very) senior NCO instead of a Officer (of any grade or time). It's almost like being a college student but having to eat at the 'kiddies table' at Thanksgiving.

IMHO the man has a point, but I never served on a ship so the Naval tradition has little meaning to me.

I look forward to hearing more from our experienced sailors.

Posted: 4/22/2010 7:30:17 AM EDT

[#5]

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OK - real quick question from an old Grunt: what is a navy "chief," exactly? Is it analogous to the Army's Warrant Officers? I thought chief referred to chief petty officers, which I thought were equivalent to SFC and up. Can someone square me away?

Chief=E7, Senior Chief=E8, Master Chief=E9

This reminds me one of the contractors in bahrain, he was prior Army. Army calls their warrants (CWO's) "Chiefs"... the Navy CWO2 gave him a funny look when he called him Chief

And in the Air Force, Chiefs are E9 –– I got a few funny looks from air force folks who couldn't imagine how I could have made E9 in 8 years when I was overseas.

Posted: 4/22/2010 7:33:16 AM EDT

[#6]

Mess crank.........LOL. I totally had forgotten that term.

When I was a LCPL on West pac on the USS Belleau Wood LPH-3 in '84, I got the mess crank for 45 days.

The last week of it I was working the Chief's mess. It was a far better work environment than the main mess deck, and I was treated with much more dignity and respect by the Chiefs than I was by my peers in the galley.

I think the SGTMAJ felt entitled to being treated like a zero since he was around them alot.

Anyways, just my pointless input in another trainwreck of a thread....

Posted: 4/22/2010 7:34:41 AM EDT

[#7]

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I don't see why not. In Iraq everyone ate in the same dining halls. Heck, I once sat across from a one-star general. Why are boats different?

Because it's not Iraq. It's a ship. If you haven't been there, you don't understand the culture –– it's tradition and culture, and nobody who doesn't understand it is going to change it. How, in fact, as a senior enlisted Marine, he had never heard of this, I cannot fathom.

OK, tradition and culture is fine, but is there an actual logical reason for it?

Actually yes. The officers, chiefs, and enlisted get a break from each other, and can discuss things over chow in a more open manner with less concern over who may overhear. Also, officers pay for their dining onboard and enlisted do not, so it does simplify the mess bills to keep them seperate.

Posted: 4/22/2010 7:36:37 AM EDT

[#8]

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Us very important officers will also work 16 hour days, most of it paperwork, but take lots of private naps in our rooms and eat the finest food served to us––because we are gods and you are clods.

The food is the same between the ward room and the mess decks. People detailed to mess duty, do mess duty and not their normal duties for the 30 days (normal assignment length on the ships I have been on).

The one issue I have how the ward room on some ships are run, is the usage of junior troops to wait on the members of the mess. Make the food and put it out, there is no need to do what some ships do of having the junior troops bring what amounts to a menu to your table, than bring the food out that you select and later bus the tables.

I tend to agree with that point.

As do I.

It always bothered me to have the guys serve me. I picked up my own plates and returned them to the galley, and always went out of my way to thank the guys who were serving. If I could get my own plate, I did.

Just for the sake of curiosity, when did the Navy get rid of the Philippine mess stewards?

Mid 1970s.

Posted: 4/22/2010 7:43:45 AM EDT

[#9]

I work with a few Navy people here. Without fail, they all say they prefer working with the Army and Air Force because the working environment is far less tense. More casual working environments, less senior officers trying to trip you up to make themselves look better, etc. The LT I'm with just came off a minesweeper and absolutely loves it here. He's talked with his career manager and gotten them to release him 2 years early from his contract (he's an academy grad, prior enlisted) so he can go over to the Army. He said as a SWO he wasn't sent to any job specific training, but was sent to a ship expected to get OJT. But all the senior officers on his ship went to SWO school, and expected him to know what they knew when they got to their first ship. He spent 2 years being set up to fail, busted on constantly. He specifically said eating meals was miserable with the other 10 officers on the ship because it's so formal. He ended up leaving the ship to come here without getting his SWO badge, which apparently is a big deal. He completed all the training, but his CO wouldn't sign off on it. Looks like he's getting a good education on the cheap.

Posted: 4/22/2010 8:07:03 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
I work with a few Navy people here. Without fail, they all say they prefer working with the Army and Air Force because the working environment is far less tense. More casual working environments, less senior officers trying to trip you up to make themselves look better, etc. The LT I'm with just came off a minesweeper and absolutely loves it here. He's talked with his career manager and gotten them to release him 2 years early from his contract (he's an academy grad, prior enlisted) so he can go over to the Army. He said as a SWO he wasn't sent to any job specific training, but was sent to a ship expected to get OJT. But all the senior officers on his ship went to SWO school, and expected him to know what they knew when they got to their first ship. He spent 2 years being set up to fail, busted on constantly. He specifically said eating meals was miserable with the other 10 officers on the ship because it's so formal. He ended up leaving the ship to come here without getting his SWO badge, which apparently is a big deal. He completed all the training, but his CO wouldn't sign off on it. Looks like he's getting a good education on the cheap.

Well then.

That anecdote must CERTAINLY be the experience of ALL Naval Officers...

Posted: 4/22/2010 8:12:40 AM EDT

[#11]

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I don't see why not. In Iraq everyone ate in the same dining halls. Heck, I once sat across from a one-star general. Why are boats different?

Because it's not Iraq. It's a ship. If you haven't been there, you don't understand the culture –– it's tradition and culture, and nobody who doesn't understand it is going to change it. How, in fact, as a senior enlisted Marine, he had never heard of this, I cannot fathom.

ETA: In general, the SGM probably would have been invited to join the Chiefs in the Chiefs' Mess –– and why anybody would want to dine in the wardroom when they were invited to the Chiefs' Mess, I don't get.

Joshki nailed it... I have never been scared of being a part of the Chief's mess. The Sgt. Maj. has mistaken himself to be more important than he really is... sad but true.

No offense to senior NCOs out there, but it certainly seems like many E-8s and E-9s develop a resentment towards officers. The truely professional senior NCOs are the MOST respectful, and enforce the traditions.

In my line of work, I NEED to develop a tighter relationship with my subordinates. It helps them realize that I care about them, and that their safety is my first priority. I've filled sandbags, gone without food, and subjected myself to all kinds of things that I didn't have to, just to prove the I was WILLING to. From what I've seen, I have an unusually collaborative leadership style for the Army, and the Army has a much more collaborative leadership style than the Marines or Navy.

Let the Navy and Marines do what they want, because their traditions have been working for them for hundreds of years.

When I was in Ramadi, I filled sandbags too. I figured that they were keeping the rounds off me too, so I'd chip in!

Posted: 4/22/2010 8:15:21 AM EDT

[#12]

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I work with a few Navy people here. Without fail, they all say they prefer working with the Army and Air Force because the working environment is far less tense. More casual working environments, less senior officers trying to trip you up to make themselves look better, etc. The LT I'm with just came off a minesweeper and absolutely loves it here. He's talked with his career manager and gotten them to release him 2 years early from his contract (he's an academy grad, prior enlisted) so he can go over to the Army. He said as a SWO he wasn't sent to any job specific training, but was sent to a ship expected to get OJT. But all the senior officers on his ship went to SWO school, and expected him to know what they knew when they got to their first ship. He spent 2 years being set up to fail, busted on constantly. He specifically said eating meals was miserable with the other 10 officers on the ship because it's so formal. He ended up leaving the ship to come here without getting his SWO badge, which apparently is a big deal. He completed all the training, but his CO wouldn't sign off on it. Looks like he's getting a good education on the cheap.

Well then.

That anecdote must CERTAINLY be the experience of ALL Naval Officers...

One disgruntled LT who couldn't get his SWO pin... That guy's got some credibility!

Posted: 4/22/2010 8:17:07 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I work with a few Navy people here. Without fail, they all say they prefer working with the Army and Air Force because the working environment is far less tense. More casual working environments, less senior officers trying to trip you up to make themselves look better, etc. The LT I'm with just came off a minesweeper and absolutely loves it here. He's talked with his career manager and gotten them to release him 2 years early from his contract (he's an academy grad, prior enlisted) so he can go over to the Army. He said as a SWO he wasn't sent to any job specific training, but was sent to a ship expected to get OJT. But all the senior officers on his ship went to SWO school, and expected him to know what they knew when they got to their first ship. He spent 2 years being set up to fail, busted on constantly. He specifically said eating meals was miserable with the other 10 officers on the ship because it's so formal. He ended up leaving the ship to come here without getting his SWO badge, which apparently is a big deal. He completed all the training, but his CO wouldn't sign off on it. Looks like he's getting a good education on the cheap.

Well then.

That anecdote must CERTAINLY be the experience of ALL Naval Officers...

One disgruntled LT who couldn't get his SWO pin... That guy's got some credibility!

If you can't get your SWO pin on a fucking minesweeper.....

Posted: 4/22/2010 8:23:17 AM EDT

[#14]

Spent all my time in submarines, all enlisted ate together.

Posted: 4/22/2010 8:31:22 AM EDT

[#15]

Interesting. I did not know the Navy operated this way while out to sea.

Worthless factoid, I met Sgt. Maj. Espinal in Haiti. He treated us lowly Airmen fairly during our brief encounter.
At least in my unit, lower ranking eats before higher ranking. I was at a post with my squadron commander (0-4 and prior Army enlisted) who ensured I (E-4) and the other person (E-5) ate before he did.

ETA: I am one of the college educated enlisted hoping to attain a commission.

Posted: 4/22/2010 8:35:07 AM EDT

[#16]

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I spent one continuous week on a carrier while serving in the Army.....I like the tradition and so did my guys. However, an Army E-6 better not cut in front of my guys or any another Army lower enlisted while on a ship...that tradition is best kept for the squids and the Armys tradition is to let lower ranking personal eat first.

It's a Marine tradition, as well.

There's a story out there that two junior Naval officers tried to cut the ice cream line during WWII, only to encounter Adm. Halsey waiting patiently in the same line-much hilarity ensued.

Posted: 4/22/2010 8:41:12 AM EDT

[#17]

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You are a former chief who ate in the chief's mess and slept in separate berthing so of course you support this tradition and if you did complain about it all of your chief friends would disown you.

You seem to forget the little detail that he assuredly mess cranked (more than once) before becoming a Chief.

No, I obviously didn't forget that, my point is if a chief were to complain about something like that he would not be very popular among his peers. I did 99 days of mess cooking total (9 more than allowed) and I only had a problem with being a butler/servant to the officers. 69 days of my mess cooking were on the mess deck and that was fine because all enlisted had to do it.

Weren't you an officer in the Navy? How did you feel about enlisted men being your slave/butler? Why not have a boot ensign serve his peers?

Posted: 4/22/2010 8:57:52 AM EDT

[#18]

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I spent one continuous week on a carrier while serving in the Army.....I like the tradition and so did my guys. However, an Army E-6 better not cut in front of my guys or any another Army lower enlisted while on a ship...that tradition is best kept for the squids and the Armys tradition is to let lower ranking personal eat first.

It's a Marine tradition, as well.

The traditions just reflect experience over the years.

The Navy is in a position where they are not worried about food resupply or quantity in an operational enviornment, and as they are in very close quarters 24/7 and some segragation is needed for Sailors of all ranks to interact with their peers without concern, as well as the Navy culture that usually is much more "seperative".

The Army and Marines come from a background where in the field rations are often in short supply, so the higher your rank, the farther back in the line you eat to ensure that your Soldiers and Marines are cared for and their needs are met before yours. More than once I went without food, or with just the sides that were left over, but my troops got theirs so all was good.

No issues with that, although if the Navy has junior Sailors waiting tables for officers that would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Posted: 4/22/2010 8:58:27 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Weren't you an officer in the Navy? How did you feel about enlisted men being your slave/butler? Why not have a boot ensign serve his peers?

I've already answered this. I didn't like it, but I understood it. I treated them with great respect, and they appreciated it.

On my ships, cranking in the wardroom was reserved for the GOOD enlisted who were on Mess duty.

And they NEVER made an officer's rack, including the Captain's.

Posted: 4/22/2010 9:12:17 AM EDT

[#20]

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Us very important officers will also work 16 hour days, most of it paperwork, but take lots of private naps in our rooms and eat the finest food served to us––because we are gods and you are clods.

The food is the same between the ward room and the mess decks. People detailed to mess duty, do mess duty and not their normal duties for the 30 days (normal assignment length on the ships I have been on).

The one issue I have how the ward room on some ships are run, is the usage of junior troops to wait on the members of the mess. Make the food and put it out, there is no need to do what some ships do of having the junior troops bring what amounts to a menu to your table, than bring the food out that you select and later bus the tables.

R0N, I respect you here, and maybe things have changed a lot the last 15 years.

I know that when the mess decks were serving ChiliMac the (old) New Orleans wardroom was serving New York Strip because I got sent to clean up so that one of the mess duty guys could a night ashore. I asked around and found out that was a regular thing.

Not to overly bust on the Navy guys, I was really bummed right about when I got Corporal and get sent to Cherry Point. Private O only Marina, multiple private O only pools when E kids had none at all, O only child care, all the nice beaches at Lejeune reserved for O families...

Posted: 4/22/2010 9:36:57 AM EDT

[#21]

I remember the few times I spent on board ships that Filipinos were the cooks and stewards, and the food in Wardrooms was a much better quality from my viewpoint. I think the Navy made up for it by the "midrats", my little time spent aboard it seems that meal made up for the rest of what they passed on as food.

Posted: 4/22/2010 9:56:20 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

I know that when the mess decks were serving ChiliMac the (old) New Orleans wardroom was serving New York Strip because I got sent to clean up so that one of the mess duty guys could a night ashore. I asked around and found out that was a regular thing.

Did you miss the bit about officers paying for their own food? If they were regularly getting NY Strip it was because they decided they wanted to and shelled out for it out of pocket.

If you want it to be fair, then the enlisted mess could also get NY Strip and we'll just take it out of their pay as well.

Posted: 4/22/2010 10:23:26 AM EDT

[#23]

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Weren't you an officer in the Navy? How did you feel about enlisted men being your slave/butler? Why not have a boot ensign serve his peers?

I've already answered this. I didn't like it, but I understood it. I treated them with great respect, and they appreciated it.

On my ships, cranking in the wardroom was reserved for the GOOD enlisted who were on Mess duty.

And they NEVER made an officer's rack, including the Captain's.

And cranking in the Chiefs' Mess was reserved for the best –– those guys were all hand picked, and treated very well.

Posted: 4/22/2010 11:21:16 AM EDT

[#24]

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Weren't you an officer in the Navy? How did you feel about enlisted men being your slave/butler? Why not have a boot ensign serve his peers?

I've already answered this. I didn't like it, but I understood it. I treated them with great respect, and they appreciated it.

On my ships, cranking in the wardroom was reserved for the GOOD enlisted who were on Mess duty.

And they NEVER made an officer's rack, including the Captain's.

And cranking in the Chiefs' Mess was reserved for the best –– those guys were all hand picked, and treated very well.

I wasn't going to mention this, because thats where I did my mess cranking. I actually had to interview for the job. The outgoing messcrank made recommendations and the Chiefs would pick from a very few. I made the coffee in the morning, vacumned the mess and berthing, and brought over however many rations the Chiefs wanted that day. After they ate, I would wash the dishes and by that time it was time to watch the Price is Right.
In payment for my "slave labor", I was always on liberty at 11:30 or 1200.
As an E2 I hated to see it end.

Posted: 4/22/2010 11:27:40 AM EDT

[#25]

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funny i never paid attention when I was on the USS Austin for 8 months.

Can you pass the butter bar?

The LPD4 Austin? I spent some time on that in mid 80s mod locked off Beirut and during the Achille Laurel BS. I was typically on another ship in the MEU.

That ship was a dump. You have my condolences.

Posted: 4/22/2010 11:35:33 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
The SgtMaj is out of line.

ETA
<––––––––––––––L/Cpl for years who never whined. Stop fucking with tradition already.

I totally agree SGT Maj got his feelings hurt. Naval tradition is important and making everyone feel gosh darn special is not a naval tradition.

Too much of that shit going on in the military. I used to FREAK THE FUCK out when I was other branches of the service and they'd be so casual with their officers or me as a Staff SNCO. "Airman you call me Staff one more time or Sarge 1 more time and I WILL break something on you." If you call my Lieutenant "El Tee" one more time I will break something on you... Now let's go back to the task at hand which is blowing things up.

And yes they used to be whiny about the correction and yes I am sure someone will whine but the Marine Corps has its traditions too. And had we wanted to be best friends with people we'd have joined your service.

It is all about discipline and being buddies with your superiors is not healthy. I am not your mommy or friend or buddy or brother I am here to lead you effectively. Want to eat in the officers mess go become an officer.

Posted: 4/22/2010 11:44:58 AM EDT

[#27]

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I don't see why not. In Iraq everyone ate in the same dining halls. Heck, I once sat across from a one-star general. Why are boats different?

Because it's not Iraq. It's a ship. If you haven't been there, you don't understand the culture –– it's tradition and culture, and nobody who doesn't understand it is going to change it. How, in fact, as a senior enlisted Marine, he had never heard of this, I cannot fathom.

ETA: In general, the SGM probably would have been invited to join the Chiefs in the Chiefs' Mess –– and why anybody would want to dine in the wardroom when they were invited to the Chiefs' Mess, I don't get.

SGM that is Army nastiness

Anyhow, Chief's mess is plenty good and you'd think a SNCO would want to eat with his kind not break bread with snot nosed officers. Chief's mess is great AND while underway naval personnel are probably the hardest working military men bar none it was an honor to eat in Chief's mess. AND it would have been a better way to learn WTF was going on.

You gotta be a mincing, limp wristed, whistle talking, sack of shit to whine publicly like that over something like this. The Corps sure has changed I knew it was gonna get fucked up when I got out.

That Sgt Maj is likely a pogue who MAY have done some time in a line company or combat arms as a Gunny. I didn't grow up with any Staff NCOs that would want to eat with officers. Or may be he was a grunt pissed off about having to do something humanitarian.

Posted: 4/22/2010 11:48:27 AM EDT

[#28]

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I don't see why not. In Iraq everyone ate in the same dining halls. Heck, I once sat across from a one-star general. Why are boats different?

Because it's not Iraq. It's a ship. If you haven't been there, you don't understand the culture –– it's tradition and culture, and nobody who doesn't understand it is going to change it. How, in fact, as a senior enlisted Marine, he had never heard of this, I cannot fathom.

OK, tradition and culture is fine, but is there an actual logical reason for it?

Yes, because the Dept. of Navy says so that is all the logic needed. It is the US Navy not a fucking book club. They fuck up other navies they don't garden or sell art. they blow things up.

In the military you live in a dictatorship so that others may be free. And if you served or are serving. Shame on you for asking this.

Posted: 4/22/2010 11:52:27 AM EDT

[#29]

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I don't see why not. In Iraq everyone ate in the same dining halls. Heck, I once sat across from a one-star general. Why are boats different?

Because it's not Iraq. It's a ship. If you haven't been there, you don't understand the culture –– it's tradition and culture, and nobody who doesn't understand it is going to change it. How, in fact, as a senior enlisted Marine, he had never heard of this, I cannot fathom.

OK, tradition and culture is fine, but is there an actual logical reason for it?

This is the Navy.

Do. Not. Question. TRADITIONS!

I'm gone in less than two anyway, non-issue to me.

If you stay, you'll understand better down the line... I wouldn't have understood as a junior Sailor either –– I get it now.

In my humble opinion one of the reasons we have the greatest navy of all time is because the Navy does an incredible job of maintaining tradition and in many cases discipline. Maybe not my kind of discipline but good discipline and order under way.

Sailor getting out in 2... Be damned proud of your Navy and your service. I spent a lot of time deployed on ships and I am always amazed at how good our Navy is... Especially the Gator navy and most especially the FMF Corpsmen.

Posted: 4/22/2010 11:55:12 AM EDT

[#30]

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Quoted:
I don't see why not. In Iraq everyone ate in the same dining halls. Heck, I once sat across from a one-star general. Why are boats different?

Because it's not Iraq. It's a ship. If you haven't been there, you don't understand the culture –– it's tradition and culture, and nobody who doesn't understand it is going to change it. How, in fact, as a senior enlisted Marine, he had never heard of this, I cannot fathom.

OK, tradition and culture is fine, but is there an actual logical reason for it?

Actually yes. The officers, chiefs, and enlisted get a break from each other, and can discuss things over chow in a more open manner with less concern over who may overhear. Also, officers pay for their dining onboard and enlisted do not, so it does simplify the mess bills to keep them seperate.

That is actually a good point. I am sure my troops didn't want me around them while they ate chow. Nor should they. And when I was a troop I didn't want my "bosses" anywhere near me. Nor should I.

Posted: 4/22/2010 12:01:44 PM EDT

[#31]

Having been on ships as a civilian contractor we had the option of what mess we would use.

The Chief's mess was preferred.

Better food and less formality.

To eat in the officers mess we had to wear a dress shirt and tie, and even a jacket if the officers were 'dressed.'

The Chiefs would take us as we were.

Every naval officer I have met seemed aware of the demands that could come there way in combat on a ship, were the survival of the ship is more important than the survival of individuals.

One higher ranking officer put it as "Cab you close the passageway to a flooding compartment with men when they are your friends?
Doing it to anyone is already a hard task. Best to not make it any harder."

Posted: 4/22/2010 12:12:00 PM EDT

[#32]

FYI the tradition pre-dates our own Navy. It goes all the way back to the great age of sailing. The living conditions on, say, a Napoleonic Man o War were often atrocious. Food would spoil, water would go bad, they could be months at sea away from any higher command and any resupply, etc. Accordingly, RN tradition did everything it could to reinforce the social order. Sailors had to salute whenever an officer passed, flogging and other corporal punishment was prescribed for minor offenses, officers and enlisted did not associate outside of their duties, and hanging was the punishment for striking a superior officer. All of this was meant to continually reinforce the social hierarchy so that when things got rough, people wouldn't forget who was in charge. Watch Master and Commander or the Hornblower BBC series to get something of a view of the traditions of the time. If the Navy thinks it is a good idea to maintain these traditions, I am not going to second guess them.

Posted: 4/22/2010 12:54:46 PM EDT

[#33]

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Meh.

Different strokes for different folks. Different branches have completely different cultures.

I ALWAYS eat with my guys, and I ALWAYS eat last.

When I was on the ground, that's what I did as well. Unit cohesion is a complex animal –– and it's different in different environments.

Both of these men are leaders. Thank you both for your service.

Posted: 4/22/2010 12:59:45 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
FYI the tradition pre-dates our own Navy. It goes all the way back to the great age of sailing. The living conditions on, say, a Napoleonic Man o War were often atrocious. Food would spoil, water would go bad, they could be months at sea away from any higher command and any resupply, etc. Accordingly, RN tradition did everything it could to reinforce the social order. Sailors had to salute whenever an officer passed, flogging and other corporal punishment was prescribed for minor offenses, officers and enlisted did not associate outside of their duties, and hanging was the punishment for striking a superior officer. All of this was meant to continually reinforce the social hierarchy so that when things got rough, people wouldn't forget who was in charge. Watch Master and Commander or the Hornblower BBC series to get something of a view of the traditions of the time. If the Navy thinks it is a good idea to maintain these traditions, I am not going to second guess them.

Its just funny if you tried to apply the very same traditions the Navy likes to abide by to other services it would instantly become cruel and considered to be just plain wrong.

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:02:08 PM EDT

[#35]

Sergeant Major Louis M. Espinal does have an impressive resume. That said, he has no business and no standing or authority in this issue. As such, he should have kept his mouth shut.

I would not be surprised if he does not already understand this.

Traditions evolve due to a specific need and goal. Ships underway have the unique situation in that close proximately will breed contempt and over familiarity. Separate berthing, messing and clear lines of authority make it possible in an emergency situation, to close and dog a hatch on a compartment, with men in it, when necessary to save the ship and continue the mission –– even if those who are condemned to death in that compartment are your friends and shipmates.

The whole issue is as foolish as any other service suggesting that the blood stripe should be removed from the Marines dress blue uniform. Marines would be telling them to Shut The F&ck Up, and rightfully so.

As to Mess Cooking and duties of junior enlisted (E-2/E-3). They have no speciality ratings at this point in their period of service. Mess Cooking provides a necessary function. Just like in the old days, where they sat and peeled bags of potatoes. It has to be done. Watchstanders cannot buss their own tables and be expected to stand their watches at the same time. Quartermasters of the Watch can't swab and wax decks and navigate at the same time. Cooks, cook the food. Nonrates are there to in effect do the grunt work and LEARN. We all did that, we all learned. It was not long before you found out, what Charlie Noble was. If you want to go AWOL on a ship, you are gonna get wet. If you don't maintain discipline, I guarantee you will be "Kissing the Gunner's Daughter"!

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:02:59 PM EDT

[#36]

Homeboy needs to remember who the Marine Corp works for.

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:05:50 PM EDT

[#37]

Do the enlisted sailors ever humorously nickname their mess "The Battleship Potemkin Cafe"?

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:12:43 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

The officer/elnlisted messes don't bother me, but officers should have to clean their own fucking ward rooms...

THAT was always bullshit in my mind...

yup everyone should maintain their own spaces.

A bit of actual physical work won't kill anyone.

The separate messes don't bother me either, but at the Naval Academy everyone eats together. You can still have the wardroom and the goatlocker for professional development with one mess. Its not an either/or thing.

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:14:11 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Sorry but you dont have to experience something to know its a bad policy. Kinda like I dont have to get shot with a gun to know its gonna be painful.

You don't have the experience to even comment on Naval Traditions, let alone assess them as "bad policy". Sorry.

So I assume then you have never critizied Obama, right?

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:16:48 PM EDT

[#40]

Traditions evolve due to a specific need and goal. Ships underway have the unique situation in that close proximately will breed contempt and over familiarity. Separate berthing, messing and clear lines of authority make it possible in an emergency situation, to close and dog a hatch on a compartment, with men in it, when necessary to save the ship and continue the mission –– even if those who are condemned to death in that compartment are your friends and shipmates.

They had pressurized and water tight compartments 300-400 years ago when these traditions began?

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:26:36 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

I spent one continuous week on a carrier while serving in the Army.....I like the tradition and so did my guys. However, an Army E-6 better not cut in front of my guys or any another Army lower enlisted while on a ship...that tradition is best kept for the squids and the Armys tradition is to let lower ranking personal eat first.

About the only thing I respected about the Marines I dealt with while in the Navy was that tradition. Its one I think the Navy should adopt as well.

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:28:17 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:

You are a former chief who ate in the chief's mess and slept in separate berthing so of course you support this tradition and if you did complain about it all of your chief friends would disown you.

You seem to forget the little detail that he assuredly mess cranked (more than once) before becoming a Chief.

I never mess cranked. We were short nuke et's and by the time we had the people I had already earned my dolphins. Lots of nukes miss out on it for that reason. Sometimes its good to be the geek.....

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:30:11 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Do the enlisted sailors ever humorously nickname their mess "The Battleship Potemkin Cafe"?

I'd imagine very few people officer, or enlisted would find that humorous and popular enough to make it stick.

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:31:32 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:

and why anybody would want to dine in the wardroom when they were invited to the Chiefs' Mess, I don't get.

My first thought when reading this article!

Yup. I wonder if the Sgt Maj wants to get rid of the NCO and SNCO sections at the chow hall? Maybe even go so far as to get rid of the Officers Mess and BOQ too? Didn't he ever want to eat a meal and discuss business with those of similar rank without having Pvt Snuffy or Maj Mistake within earshot?

Sounds to me he is just pissed that he is not an Officer, or at least treated like one...

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:32:06 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Correct. There is a difference (E-6 vs. PO1)

as an ex E-5/Po2 how exactly can you reach E-6 in the Navy w/o becoming a PO1?

Just curious, as they've always gone together in my experience. Or are you trying to underscore the difference between rate and rank?

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:43:45 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Traditions evolve due to a specific need and goal. Ships underway have the unique situation in that close proximately will breed contempt and over familiarity. Separate berthing, messing and clear lines of authority make it possible in an emergency situation, to close and dog a hatch on a compartment, with men in it, when necessary to save the ship and continue the mission –– even if those who are condemned to death in that compartment are your friends and shipmates.

They had pressurized and water tight compartments 300-400 years ago when these traditions began?

Sigh. You are missing the point. Does not matter whether the example is current or when the USS Constitution went into battle.

What would your reaction be if I told you you had to climb the rat lines up a 220 foot tall mast and shimmy yourself along a yardarm to the end with only the footrope and draping yourself over the yard. All to secure a sail with gaskets. Oh. Do this in a heavy sea, such as 20 foot breaking waves in 70 mile per hour gale force winds.

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:49:55 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:

You are a former chief who ate in the chief's mess and slept in separate berthing so of course you support this tradition and if you did complain about it all of your chief friends would disown you.

You seem to forget the little detail that he assuredly mess cranked (more than once) before becoming a Chief.

I never mess cranked. We were short nuke et's and by the time we had the people I had already earned my dolphins. Lots of nukes miss out on it for that reason. Sometimes its good to be the geek.....

Yeah, I didn't have to crank either (on the ship –– I did while I was in A School) –– I precommissioned my ship, and by the time we stood up the galleys I was a DS2, running two workcenters. I did plenty of other dirty jobs that sucked though –– even as a tech, and even as a second class, throughout my career.

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:54:12 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Correct. There is a difference (E-6 vs. PO1)

as an ex E-5/Po2 how exactly can you reach E-6 in the Navy w/o becoming a PO1?

Just curious, as they've always gone together in my experience. Or are you trying to underscore the difference between rate and rank?

The difference is that an E-6 is ONLY a technician. A Petty Officer First Class is a technician who can also manage and lead personnel in the completion of a task that he/she knows needs to be done and does not have to be ordered to do it.

A Chief's Definition of Heaven: Three good PO1's and a Division Officer who does what he is told.

Don't know who wrote it, but it's accurate

Posted: 4/22/2010 1:59:18 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Correct. There is a difference (E-6 vs. PO1)

as an ex E-5/Po2 how exactly can you reach E-6 in the Navy w/o becoming a PO1?

Just curious, as they've always gone together in my experience. Or are you trying to underscore the difference between rate and rank?

The difference is that an E-6 is ONLY a technician. A Petty Officer First Class is a technician who can also manage and lead personnel in the completion of a task that he/she knows needs to be done and does not have to be ordered to do it.

A Chief's Definition of Heaven: Three good PO1's and a Division Officer who does what he is told.

Don't know who wrote it, but it's accurate

Sounds about right...

Posted: 4/22/2010 2:04:01 PM EDT

[#50]

I just wish the officers would stop addressing me by my first name and start calling me Petty Officer. Someday Im going to try addressing them by their first names and see how that works out.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Marine blasts Navy dining traditions: Time to end centuries-old officer-enlisted separation on ships (Page 6 of 9)

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