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Posted: 3/21/2002 7:49:41 PM EDT
...most of the guys on this site. I have read a lot of posts from people that really like their Sigs, but no one says anything about S&W. I heard seomething about S&W giving in to Gun control or something like that. I have a S&W 5904 9mm that was a gift. It is the only pistol I own and seems to be of high quality. I have had no problems shooting it and I can hit where I am aiming. Yes, I am relatively new here so I apologize upfront if this is a dumb question. Thanks, LUAVUL
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 7:58:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 8:05:47 PM EDT
S&W stabbed gun owners in the back by signing a deal with the Clinton Whitehouse. For this reason most people won't buy them. I won't buy them and I hope that the company goes out of business. Whether its been bought by new people or not isn't the point. The point is it betrayed, hence it must die. -SS
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 8:10:40 PM EDT
I got a pair of consecutive numbered Sigmas from a pawn shop that went out of business. Although I hear the early run of the SW9C series had a lot of trouble, I love mine. Put a hundred rounds through both of them twice a week for two years. Do the math, thats about 11,000 rounds a gun if I'm not mistaken. Treated them well, cleaned them a lot, and replaced the barrels after 5,000 rounds (although it was more preventative than anything) never had any problems whatsoever with either gun. I intend on buying a Sigma 40 here as soon as I'm out of school in May.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 8:22:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy223: The former owners of S&W signed an absolute horrid agreement with the government on how they would market their product through their dealers. It very negatively affected dealers and put a real rotton taste in the mouths of buyers. As a result, people quit buying S&W. S&W was sold a while back to new owners and I think the latest word is that they will not be honoring the agreement. It is going to take a while for that rotton taste to go away though. For what its worth, I think S&W makes a real fine revolver but I don't have any experience with their semi autos.
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The new owners have not made any attempt to get out of the agreement. In fact, SafTHammer is a big mfg of trigger locks, so why should they want to get out of the agreement?
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 8:24:29 PM EDT
I was hoping the petition [URL]http://www.i-charity.net/sw.cgi/ptn/30[/URL] would break 10,000 signatures. It's been up for what seems like years, but we're not quite there yet. Maybe it's moot at this point anyway?
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 8:25:32 PM EDT
Thanks for the info guys!! How many people does S&W employ? I'm sure it's a lot. I would hate to see a lot of hard working Americans lose their job because of something the PREVIOUS owners did. Sounds like the new company is on the right track.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 8:42:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Luavul: Thanks for the info guys!! How many people does S&W employ? I'm sure it's a lot. I would hate to see a lot of hard working Americans lose their job because of something the PREVIOUS owners did. Sounds like the new company is on the right track.
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How do you figure the company is on the right track? As I already stated, SafTHammer, the new owner, has made NO effort to get out of the agreement. The agreement would ban dealers from selling AR15s if they wanted to sell S&W products. I feel sorry for the employees, but this matter is more important than that.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 8:57:45 PM EDT
LarryG, I was typing that response before your reply was posted. I was going on the info that the new owners were not going to honor the previous owners' BS. I will try and keep up with their policies from now on. Thanks yall, LUAVUL
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 9:12:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy223: The former owners of S&W signed an absolute horrid agreement with the government on how they would market their product through their dealers. It very negatively affected dealers and put a real rotton taste in the mouths of buyers. As a result, people quit buying S&W. S&W was sold a while back to new owners and I think the latest word is that they will not be honoring the agreement. It is going to take a while for that rotton taste to go away though. For what its worth, I think S&W makes a real fine revolver but I don't have any experience with their semi autos.
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Only have aquired two smiths..... one was used (so company made no $$$) and the other was the older 6" 610 (since it was being discontinued for the 4", I got one........forgive me...always wanted one for years...... even before the agreement. actually, this 610 was made during the first run....so it's a pre agreement gun.)
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 9:54:45 PM EDT
GuardTanker - I'll bite - why were the barrels replaced?
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 10:02:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 10:09:24 PM EDT
I had read somewhere recently that the S&W factory was being moved to Arizona. So almost all the current workers will probably be fired anyway.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 10:16:59 PM EDT
Affirmative on boycotting S&W. They stabbed us, now it's payback. I own one .44 mag 629 (great gun) that I picked up prior to the fiasco. I won't be buying any Smith's until they get on track & help the law abiding citizens dictate to the elected elite what works instead of visa versa.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 10:25:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2002 10:30:08 PM EDT by Dave_G]
Wanna read what the antigun folks are saying about the S&W agreement? [url]http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/summaries/reader/0,2061,549207,00.html[/url] All you guys who are mad at the Brits for rolling over for the Clinton gang need to take a pill. Your stupid boycott of the wrong people hasn't kept the new owners from turning the company around and showing a profit as well as convincing the Feds to back off enforcement of the agreement.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 10:29:13 PM EDT
Tate- Just preventative maintenance. Probably little more than a kernel of suggestion from years of talking to people about guns. The barrels were very inexpensive, and they were new and shiny- after 5k rounds, even the most solid barrel will show some age. As for the S&W boycott; I still love Sigmas-they feel so much better in my hands than a Glock, and they're what, half as much? The amount I donate every year to the NRA more than ballances out a one or two off purchase of an S&W product. Besides, I buy Israeli gear all the time, sometimes brand new from IMI outletters (ever shoot one of their new M-1 carbines? Beautiful guns) I realy dont like to think that my dollars are probably going to bullets and guns that are held over the heads of my relatives in Palestine but its the best qualitatively.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 10:35:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Wanna read what the antigun folks are saying about the S&W agreement? [url]http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/summaries/reader/0,2061,549207,00.html[/url] All you guys who are mad at the Brits for rolling over for the Clinton gang need to take a pill. Your stupid boycott of the wrong people hasn't kept the new owners from turning the company around and showing a profit as well as convincing the Feds to back off enforcement of the agreement.
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Haven't read it yet, will check it out. If I'm off base I'll reverse position. [8D] "When I did good, no one saw it, when I F*#ked up, everyone was there, & they never forgot it!!!" or something to that effect. I'd like to see S&W back in the fold, I'll look into your link.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 10:41:22 PM EDT
If you want to know the real story about S&W it is here: [url]http://handguns.ar15.com/forums/index.html[/url]
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 4:43:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dave_G: Wanna read what the antigun folks are saying about the S&W agreement? [url]http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/summaries/reader/0,2061,549207,00.html[/url] All you guys who are mad at the Brits for rolling over for the Clinton gang need to take a pill. Your stupid boycott of the wrong people hasn't kept the new owners from turning the company around and showing a profit as well as convincing the Feds to back off enforcement of the agreement.
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In that article, they only refer to the safety aspect. The antis always only refer to the safety aspect of the agreement, they never tell the whole story. It wasn't a stupid boycott, Dave. It got it out of the hands of the Brits. I am still not convinced that they are worthy of anyone's business yet.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 5:31:23 AM EDT
The only good thing to be said about modern S&W production: their M59 12 and 15 round mags fit my Kel-Tec :)
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 5:50:48 AM EDT
S&W autos aren't popular with me due to my experiences with them jamming or having functional issues. Now the revolvers on the other hand; They are some wonderful craftsmanship.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 6:11:47 AM EDT
Boy, wouldn't that make the anti-gun crowd happy? If they got the gunowners mad enough to boycot a manufacturer and cause them to go out of business! They must be laughing at us--doing their dirtywork for them! Who is next? The morons at Colt who think John Q. Public can't be trusted with a handgun? Please engage brain before unleashing emotion! I have owned a couple Model 41's and a couple S&W revolvers. All were top-notch firearms. The Model 41 is without question the best American made target .22. I have since "graduated" to a Hammerli 208 which is the best in the world! Too bad the Swiss stopped making them--maybe we should boycot Hammerli too?! Please, use your head for something other than a hat storage device!! A boycot only hurts us.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 6:37:23 AM EDT
Here's my $0.02. FWIW I have carried 2 S&W products on duty for eight years, a 5906 and a 4006. What I don't like about S&W guns (in no order): 1. Their semiauto guns are overengineered (I'm sure that's probably not a word) with several small parts and springs that are highly susceptible to weather exposure and need frequent replacing. 2. All of our 4006's shoot about 1" low at 7 yds and gets worse as you move back. 3. Due to a slight mis-adjustment in the CNC cutters every 4006 barrel that we have has a weak area at the junction of the feed ramp and chamber. Eventually the barrels will burst. That I know of, when S&W figured the problem out they didn't let anybody know of this condition. OK, you screwed up but don't let somebody get hurt because you don't want to admit it. What I like about S&W (you should always end on a positive note): 1. American made, yes that means something to me. The factory workers that I talked to when I went to armorer school really take pride in their work. 2. Their training academy is committed to helping law enforcement. 3. Their customer service is outstanding. They have quickly delivered replacement parts every time I have called. I haven't paid for a replacement part yet including about 40 barrels at about $100 each. I must admit that I haven't played with the Sigma or SW99 much but am in the process of getting some for T&E.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 6:48:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2002 6:51:46 AM EDT by SouthernShark]
Originally Posted By RayDBonz: Please, use your head for something other than a hat storage device!! A boycot only hurts us.
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You are the one who are not using your brain. There a plenty of loyal gun manufacturers out there. We have need to do business with those who do not support the Second Amendment. And yes Colt should go too. In fact, every manufacturer who does not support the second amendment should go. If you want an AR there are about a dozen pro-second amendment companies like Bushmaster, Armalite, Oly, DPMS, and Rock River Arms who will sell you one. If you want a 1911 then there are also dozens of those companies such as Kimber, Wilson Combat, and others who will sale you one. If a company doesn't support the Second Amendment, then I don't do business with them. As for keeping people employeed, I don't see any difference from employees at a gun manufacturing plant and employees at K-mart or Levi's. If the company doesn't support the Second Amendment then it has to go. You are either with us, or you are against us. There is no middle ground. There is no place where we can meet and compromise. -SS
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 7:08:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SouthernShark:
Originally Posted By RayDBonz: Please, use your head for something other than a hat storage device!! A boycot only hurts us.
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You are the one who are not using your brain. There a plenty of loyal gun manufacturers out there. We have need to do business with those who do not support the Second Amendment. And yes Colt should go too. In fact, every manufacturer who does not support the second amendment should go. If you want an AR there are about a dozen pro-second amendment companies like Bushmaster, Armalite, Oly, DPMS, and Rock River Arms who will sell you one. If you want a 1911 then there are also dozens of those companies such as Kimber, Wilson Combat, and others who will sale you one. If a company doesn't support the Second Amendment, then I don't do business with them. As for keeping people employeed, I don't see any difference from employees at a gun manufacturing plant and employees at K-mart or Levi's. If the company doesn't support the Second Amendment then it has to go. You are either with us, or you are against us. There is no middle ground. There is no place where we can meet and compromise. -SS
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Well said SS, I find it amazing that so many will condemn S&W and keep on buying colts. The only way to send a message to them is NOT to buy their products. If they go out of business....oh well, maybe they should'nt bend over for uncle sugar every time he walks by.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 9:51:43 AM EDT
The collusion between a corporation and government is also known as fascism. I think it is entirely appropriate that gun owners boycotted S&W and the boycott has been very effective in preventing other companies from making the same stupid mistake. Frankly, I think it should continue until it is fully clear that the agreement is null and void. If they go out of business, awww, too bad! There is an article today about how S&W's sales are up over at cnsnews.com. That could be a result of police contracts or other things. I fail to understand why the boycott was a bad idea. It is entirely appropriate for consumers to speak with their collective feet and get the word out about companies that rip them off or do things that diminish our time-honored gun rights and sporting traditions. I'll never buy a "Safe-T-Hammer" anything, so it doesn't matter. A revolver does not need a safety. If you want to be safe, keep it unloaded and locked in a cabinet or don't even own one.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 10:00:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2002 10:04:41 AM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By Luavul: I would hate to see a lot of hard working Americans lose their job because of something the PREVIOUS owners did.
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S&W screwed a lot of "hard working American" gun owners. S&W took a carefully calculated business risk in going with the Clinton administration. That "calculated business risk" blew up in their face. If S&W walks free other manufacturers will follow. For me pay-back time continues.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 10:30:13 AM EDT
If S&W wants our business, then they know what they have to do. They need to come out very publically and denounce the agreement that the former owners made with Klinton and his goons and declare the agreement null and void. Then they can make a very public apology to all of their customers who remained very loyal to them until they betrayed our loyalty by signing that agreement. You guys who want to forgive them are deceiving yourselves. S&W is trying to slink back into our good graces by trying to push the whole thing under the carpet. As for S&W employees, if they are so concerned about their jobs, they can grow some balls and stand up to ownership and demand some changes be made. I can't feel sorry for someone who has control over their fate.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 7:17:28 PM EDT
love their wheel guns, but i won't buy anything new. last i heard, the 'new' S&W was not going to challenge the agreement. the 'old' S&W gambled on screwing the loyal public and getting big gov't contracts to cover their loss (remember Colt). they counted on the klinton kronies taking care of them, and they did - just like bill took care of monica. after the sale the 'new' S&W didn't think it was important to ditch the deal, didn't think the basic premise of the agreement was all that bad. the loss of a manufacturer doesn't play with me - if they are willing to screw me for a dime they'll screw me for a dollar. if they don't understand what this agreement does and aren't willing to fix it - F'em.
Link Posted: 3/23/2002 5:44:06 AM EDT
S&W = Smith & Weasels. Screw them. They are traitors. I had a 3rd Generation 4566, it would fire then leave the empty brass in the chamber, (but only with certain brands?). Sent it back, they replaced the barrel said it was out of spec. Traded it on a Sig, never looked back. My local gun shop that has hundreds of handguns wont even think about stocking a Smith. If you want one they will order, but it's gonna cost you retail.
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