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Posted: 7/31/2017 2:54:34 PM EDT
My brother-in-law, who I have been trying to get interested in Masonry, came to me yesterday, and told me Jesus told him no oaths, per Matthew 5:34, and that's that. He's not interested in joining.
Matthew 5:34 doesn't prohibit Christians from joining the Army, or taking an oath of office, or being sworn in court. So what does Matthew 5:34 mean? |
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Never mind. No need to start a theological nit-picking argument.
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My brother-in-law, who I have been trying to get interested in Masonry, came to me yesterday, and told me Jesus told him no oaths, per Matthew 5:34, and that's that. He's not interested in joining. Matthew 5:34 doesn't prohibit Christians from joining the Army, or taking an oath of office, or being sworn in court. So what does Matthew 5:34 mean? View Quote The King James version reads like this; But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne |
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Oh, I'm not going to push him or anything. However odd I think his interpretation is.
He's Protestant, and evangelical. Going to a non-denominational congregation right now. I wonder if there are any Masons in his church. I'd sure like to know. |
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Forgive me, but I'm not catching your meaning. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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Please explain in great detail what you mean View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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the creator facepalms at the silly man made religious dogma "...no one knows...", Mark 13:32. |
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Conjecture on top of conjecture. "...no one knows...", Mark 13:32. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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As in all things, interpretation is key.
The Society of Friends interpret, "...swear not at all...All you need to say is simply 'Yes' or 'No';..." as keep your mouth shut unless you're agreeing or disagreeing to a direct question. Another interpretation is, don't just say it for the sake of saying it: do it. Anyone can say, "I swear..." But by either doing it, "Yes", or not, "No" is the measure of one's sincerity, truth and acting as promised. I believe that Christ, who rarely spoke in very plain direct terms, was speaking against how the Pharisees had twisted Old Testament law into a legal system rather than the relationship of man to G-d. Remember, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Pretty much everything Christ taught was returning the Jews to what G-d had commanded, not what the "System" had become. |
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As in all things, interpretation is key. The Society of Friends interpret, "...swear not at all...All you need to say is simply 'Yes' or 'No';..." as keep your mouth shut unless you're agreeing or disagreeing to a direct question. Another interpretation is, don't just say it for the sake of saying it: do it. Anyone can say, "I swear..." But by either doing it, "Yes", or not, "No" is the measure of one's sincerity, truth and acting as promised. I believe that Christ, who rarely spoke in very plain direct terms, was speaking against how the Pharisees had twisted Old Testament law into a legal system rather than the relationship of man to G-d. Remember, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Pretty much everything Christ taught was returning the Jews to what G-d had commanded, not what the "System" had become. View Quote |
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I would tell him that if b his convictions say he cannot take the obligation then he shouldn't join. It's his choice.
If you want to stir the pot, ask if he is married and did he say vows at his wedding. |
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I would tell him that if b his convictions say he cannot take the obligation then he shouldn't join. It's his choice. If you want to stir the pot, ask if he is married and did he say vows at his wedding. View Quote |
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That's the BEST call. No reason to start a fight. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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Oaths usually begin "I, [name], do solemnly swear or affirm that . . . ." or people will say "I [name] do solemnly affirm that. . . ." Either is legally sufficient when an oath is called for. In court here, the judge or clerk says to the witness "You do solemnly swear or affirm that the evidence you give in this cause shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth [usually 'so help you God']" and the witness says "Yes" or "I do" or "So help me God." View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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"I affirm." Oath or Obligation Few words are more wrongly used, at least in Masonic circles, than oath.A candidate takes upon himself a solemn obligation to do certain things and to refrain from certain actions. The word ” OBLIGATION ” is from the Latin-of ( to ) and ligare ( to bind ).It is a tie, a bond, an agreement, a profession of intention, a responsibility, a duty agreed upon, a constraint of action, a pledge, an acknowledgment of promises made.In no such definitions can be found any similarity to the meaning of the word ” oath “, which is the concluding phrase by which the assumer of the obligation calls upon that which he holds sacred to witness his vow. |
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ma be ok for a courtroom, wouldn't fly here in a lodge. we don't take an oath, we take an obligation ;) Oath or Obligation Few words are more wrongly used, at least in Masonic circles, than oath.A candidate takes upon himself a solemn obligation to do certain things and to refrain from certain actions. The word ” OBLIGATION ” is from the Latin-of ( to ) and ligare ( to bind ).It is a tie, a bond, an agreement, a profession of intention, a responsibility, a duty agreed upon, a constraint of action, a pledge, an acknowledgment of promises made.In no such definitions can be found any similarity to the meaning of the word ” oath “, which is the concluding phrase by which the assumer of the obligation calls upon that which he holds sacred to witness his vow. View Quote |
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Anytime someone asks me that question I tell them I've never taken an oath in the fraternity and/if they press it more I tell them what Slayer said. The most important part about taken the obligation is what the Worshipful Master promises you before you take it.
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Anytime someone asks me that question I tell them I've never taken an oath in the fraternity and/if they press it more I tell them what Slayer said. The most important part about taken the obligation is what the Worshipful Master promises you before you take it. View Quote |
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He was looking for a reason to not join....He found one. View Quote |
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there some BIG similarities. the founders of the mormon church were masons and much of their leadership structure is very similar. if he left the mormon church you may well be fighting some of that as well. there are a LOT of church documents and research documents relating to the use of masonic symbols, grips and traditions that joseph smith used in the church.
He may be very resistant to joining as he sees a tie between the mormon church and masonry. there is not one from the masonic side but there is a STRONG masonic influence in their church. |
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He may be very resistant to joining as he sees a tie between the mormon church and masonry. there is not one from the masonic side but there is a STRONG masonic influence in their church. View Quote I have heard a lot of things, and plenty of criticism and antagonisms towards the LDS Church, but not wanting to be a Mason because early-LDS leaders were masons for a brief time in LDS Church history is a first. Masonry was a big deal in 1800s America. The first Mason lodge established by the LDS Church was in Nauvoo, long after the LDS Church was already established, and after Smiths death, Young ceased the Nauvoo Mason lodge prior to the move West. Smith was made a "Mason on sight" (which is rare) as the Mayor of Nauvoo by Illinois Masons. He would not have come-up as a Mason, or knew much about the organization or its methods prior to that. After the LDS Church went West, not long after Smiths murder, no Mason lodges were formed by the LDS in the West, and the Masonic Lodge in Utah had a no-Mormon policy that lasted until 1984. Since it was a brief history in Nauvoo, and I have studied LDS history for a long time, I would not call the relationship between the LDS Church and masons, "STRONG." Smith, and the Saints, had built the Kirtland Temple, and Smith had received the Temple Ordinance revelation prior to his being made a "Mason on sight" with no background in Masonry... It is difficult to call the relationship between the Masons and the LDS Church, "STRONG" except for the brief stint the LDS Church had a Mason lodge in Nauvoo... |
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Everyone I know who is a Mason is a good dude. I have heard a lot of things, and plenty of criticism and antagonisms towards the LDS Church, but not wanting to be a Mason because early-LDS leaders were masons for a brief time in LDS Church history is a first. Masonry was a big deal in 1800s America. The first Mason lodge established by the LDS Church was in Nauvoo, long after the LDS Church was already established, and after Smiths death, Young ceased the Nauvoo Mason lodge prior to the move West. Smith was made a "Mason on sight" (which is rare) as the Mayor of Nauvoo by Illinois Masons. He would not have come-up as a Mason, or knew much about the organization or its methods prior to that. After the LDS Church went West, not long after Smiths murder, no Mason lodges were formed by the LDS in the West, and the Masonic Lodge in Utah had a no-Mormon policy that lasted until 1984. Since it was a brief history in Nauvoo, and I have studied LDS history for a long time, I would not call the relationship between the LDS Church and masons, "STRONG." Smith, and the Saints, had built the Kirtland Temple, and Smith had received the Temple Ordinance revelation prior to his being made a "Mason on sight" with no background in Masonry... It is difficult to call the relationship between the Masons and the LDS Church, "STRONG" except for the brief stint the LDS Church had a Mason lodge in Nauvoo... View Quote Smith joined the lodge in 1842 and was raised on sight by the grandmaster. Smith had also been influential in the formation of the lodge. his father had been a dedicated mason and was raised in 1818. so there is little doubt he had serious masonic influence in his life. his brother hyrum was also an active mason in NY <by the way hyrum is a masonic name >. there is some discussion in masonic circles as to whether joseph had been a part of lodges earlier but nothing appears documented. The lodge where he was raised has serious issues shortly after forming for changing the work. the lodge was suspended in 1845 when brigham young advised suspending the operations of masons in Nauvoo. most jurisdictions considered them a clandestine lodge up to about 1984. So yes there are VERY close ties between LDS and freemasonry. but based on the history it's no surprise the church teaches the opposite. rituals, grips, symbolism, ties to the founders etc. |
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a good bit of symbolism and ritual used in the lds is a very close copy of a masonic lodge. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
a good bit of symbolism and ritual used in the lds is a very close copy of a masonic lodge. Quoted:
therea re enough similarities that at one time many jurisdictions considered the LDS church as a clandestine lodge. Quoted:
LDS may not recognize it but masonic history most certainly does. Most folks who raise the Mason issue with LDS don't like *either* Masons or the LDS. Quoted:
most jurisdictions considered them a clandestine lodge up to about 1984. Link Quoted:
So yes there are VERY close ties between LDS and freemasonry. but based on the history it's no surprise the church teaches the opposite. rituals, grips, symbolism, ties to the founders etc. I was openly taught in Seminary and Institute that Smith was a Mason. It is in official lessons and manuals. One of my Institute Professors was a Mason. Similarities /= "VERY close ties." |
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While I am no longer active LDS, I have never found any conflicts between Masonry and my faith. We have many active LDS members here in UT. A recent PGM was a former Stake President. Our next GM has been a Bishop and in the Stake Presidency. WM of my home Lodge is LDS.
Interesting tidbit. Mt. Moriah Lodge in UT was seeking a charter from the Grand Lodge of NV prior to the formation of the GLoUT. NV wanted their by-laws to say they prohibited LDS members from joining. The refused and requested a charter from Kansas. During this time Wasatch #8 was chartered by MT. When the GLoUT was formed in 1872, Wasatch became #1, Mt. Moriah #2. It's still a point of friendly arguments over which Lodge was really first in UT. |
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there some BIG similarities. the founders of the mormon church were masons and much of their leadership structure is very similar. if he left the mormon church you may well be fighting some of that as well. there are a LOT of church documents and research documents relating to the use of masonic symbols, grips and traditions that joseph smith used in the church. He may be very resistant to joining as he sees a tie between the mormon church and masonry. there is not one from the masonic side but there is a STRONG masonic influence in their church. View Quote My BIL was maybe 8 years old when the family quit the church. Not even sure he was ever baptized. I'm certain he has no lingering issues there. |
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