The problem is two-fold.

First, the ratcheting effect of negotiation under stress. So anything bad immediately triggers concessions, but good times restrict us under the RLA to often a multi-year negotiations.

Second, I'd rather be furloughed (as I have been multiple times) then have my status reduced to less than a contractor, where I'm on the hook to the company, but unable to do any other job.

SO MUCH TRUTH!!!!

This man understands the real fight. The corporate criminals at my outfit have managed to delay our contract for 8 years!!!!!

The RLA is an evil scam.

I'll wager that a majority of those below the furlough line would be on board with the mitigation measures.  The problem will be "everyone else".


I'm not sure about D, but UAL and AA are still working under their bankruptcy contracts, most people I know believe another bankruptcy is all but certain for us.  Everyone who has ridden that ride before, and still walks funny understands whats coming, and no one wants to give up anything before hand.

Management has proven time and time again they cant be trusted, if I understand correctly, getting the UAL guys back to "normal" is tied to 2019 economic performance levels.  Creative airline accounting will insure that's a decade away, or more.  Not to mention that post bankruptcy, I'll wager the big three are smaller by several thousand pilots each.

In my 32 years of 121 flying, it's been one crisis after another, giveback after giveback to try and save something.  The airline from bankruptcy, our pensions, etc.  It's never worked, ever.  And the only thing we got "back" was better hourly pay rates.

It's all but certain that after 22 years here, 17 of that as a narrow body fo,  I'll be headed back to the right seat of a narrow body, most likely commuting again.  I can't find anything positive about agreeing to reduce my own monthly hours, once I'm back in the right seat.  

I feel for everyone about to get furloughed, I really do.  But we all signed on to a seniority system, and thats the risks of being junior.  BTDT.

ALPA really needs to have a Single Carrier come to Jesus moment. Either Single Carrier matters, or ALPA doesn't matter. Its really that simple. We also need to dictate the legal requirements that will underpin that definition.

AMR is maintaining four seniority lists, Atlas 3 (?), Delta 2, Alaska 2, and those are the ones off the top of my head.

The fact that ALPA has allowed this become a de facto negation of one of the prime elements of the RLA is terrible.

ETA:

We need a single national seniority list for EVERY 121 carrier, even the non-union/non-ALPA ones. If those carriers won't or can't play ball, you will be stapled in a furlough, if you're even recognized as bargaining entity.

We need to have a strong legal determination that the RLA clearly calls for one carrier/one craft/one list/one contract. Its EASY to determine who the beneficial owner/controlling entity is of Horizon, Polar or Piedmont.

I was talking to my Dad yesterday, who retired from AA in March after 35 years, about airline shit.

He told me "You know, Im glad Im on the outside looking in on this garbage".

My experience says....

Always protect the captain's seat, because everybody else's pay, hinges off of that (and I was never a captain).  And, never give the company anything, because you will never get it back (not in the next 10 years, anyway).

Honestly, I can't agree with that, because that is what gave us the RJ replacing the NB.

Goals should be 1) pay (either soft or hard, including retirement contribution) 2) schedule flexibility and 3) benefit direct cost should be the only things a contract should manage. If management wants to fly a Piper Cub or the Spruce Goose, here is the pay rate.

Anyone who gave up anything for a pension after Pan Am/Eastern/TWA all sailed down that road had what was coming to them.

Thinking about it, if I were a United Pilot, I would agree to the provision on one contingent.

The end of all Scope allowed turbine flying at United. Here are our 50 and 70 seat pay rates.

DisorientedPilot, don't hate me, bro!

The regionals need to die one way or another. Yes, that includes the 170. Its a regional jet if its got a regional paycheck.

Thanks, DALPA! Can't possibly have those little things on property flown by double-breasted blazer-wearers!

Right on.

The regionals -- at least in terms of the FFD model -- need to die.

There will always be smaller markets that the majors don't want to service and who will be flown by smaller airlines....but the sub-contracting of mainline flying should be against every labor contract in the industry.

Yeah, I agree with you here.  

To be clear, I wasn't advocating in favor of any of the reduced-hours-in-lieu-of-furlough programs, I was expressing surprise at the widely differing reaction to them among the various pilot groups when they weren't available (usually favorably seen) and now when they are being offered (almost unanimously negatively seen judging by the internet).

It sure looked like it was going to recover, but Dems allowed more shut down.  I missed a peak on DAL and LUV stock I held.  Luckily it hit that peak again for a few moments and it dumped.

I really wanted to hold it for a year, but there is so much damage, I didn't want to stress over the risk.

Shit sucks.  I disliked flying before, after a lifetime of it.  There is no way I will wear a mask to sit on an airplane, and you can bet there are plenty like me.

Agreed. But, just for the record...

The UA MEC allowed Aspen/Air Wis -146 in the mid-1980s as a "code share."

The answer to this is a federal regulation for slots.

You want to fly from EWR to FLL at prime slot time? OK, here is your route authorization to Rock Springs, WY and Pueblo, CO.

I'll be honest, I can see the tactical desirability, but it was DisorientedPilot that argued to me pretty convincingly the opposite. I stole his argument pretty much wholesale.

Lots of our guys on the bubble are on FB/various boards saying don't cut the contract.  They want to return to a contract that they don't have to dig out of for years on end.  If we end up in bankruptcy, then we're up shit creek either way.  Supposedly the proposed cuts saved less than 5 days of liquidity.  




100%.  The fact that we're under the RLA is beyond ridiculous.  




At DAL, in the last few years, I'v flown with DAL, NWA, Republic, North Central, Western and Pan-Am guys.




A national list sounds good in theory, just not sure how that would pan out.  

If we had a national seniority list for every carrier, in your opinion, would a pilot have displacement rights at carrier X if carrier Y went out of business? Additionally, if I'm a SWA captain with 25 years of seniority could I bid 350 captain at Delta? I'm not trying to start an argument just curious as to how you would envision a single list playing out.

Exactly

The bottom line is most if not all of these companies will go chapter 11. It will take burning through some cash, but they will do it. They will not project that, they will say the opposite for the investors all while lining up the ducks to file ch 11.

You can give the company 35% pay rate cuts, reduce the monthly hours, freeze your pension, and give away work rules trying to keep the company out of bankruptcy and furloughs and they will still spend 1 million dollars on a gay pride float for a parade while you are giving up everything and then they go CH 11 and will petition the judge for more concessions and the judge will grant those concessions and the 35%, and frozen pension, and loss of work rules will turn into cuts of 48.3% pay rates, less hours, turning over the retirement to the PBGC, and even worse work rules and there is nothing you can do about it because the concessions you give before CH 11 don't count in the yes of the court. The baseline is what was in the contract the day the company files and then the court will extract from that baseline. And then management will give themselves multi-million dollar bonuses and big pay pay raises for saving the company while you work for years under the concessions forced on to you by the court.

Its like SEER SERE school. You need to understand you don't control what they do to you, or when they file CH 11, you have no influence on it at all, all you have is a contract that will get thrown out by the court, so the answer is to give up nothing and keep what you have till the day the company files and then take the lumps from the court.

There is no such thing as an iron clad no furlough clause.  there is always Force Majeure and Circumstances Beyond the Company's Control. They have teams of lawyers, sure ALPA has a few lawyers, but they are always outmatched. Because of the RLA there is no leverage.

Keep what you have, give up nothing because you have no control over what the company is going to do or not do. And you will get screwed by the CH 11 court because they choose where to file and when and the whole legal point of CH 11 is to not pay bills and to reduce costs, and pilots are a cost and retirees are a bill. Go into CH 11 with as much as you can by giving up nothing before hand and then the court will take their pound of flesh like they do for all the creditors and contracts. If you give up a pound of flesh before CH11, you will give up another pound of flesh in ch 11.

Are they able to take a leave of absence?

On my phone, so I’ll flesh this out later...it’s more of a follow flying ability than a land grab.

You can always fence for a period of 5 years to ensure no training bubbles, etc.

The ultimate point to remove, incremental our total tie to our employers. It ultimately kills our leverage.

I'm solidly in the bottom third at UAL (about 500 numbers from the bottom) and a 50% cut to MPG would be 36.5 hours.  On second year pay that's about $4,500 gross per month.

I appreciate the efforts of the Union and Company to try to mitigate furloughs, but my concern is that if this comes to fruition I am still technically not furloughed (and as such, may see landing class to regain currency, CQ, etc.) so how do I make up the difference while honoring my commitment to United?  In other words, I need to put United first as my primary employer, but will still need a job - preferably a flying one - and how would I balance the two.  

Guess this is all hypothetical until the MEC votes on it and it goes to the pilot group.

In the meantime, I am shotgunning resumes out everywhere and trying to make contact with folks I used to manage at my old job to try and make inroads elsewhere.  Not getting a whole lot of positive results thusfar.

Nice. A good friend of mine starts whale school there real soon.

Republic LOA passes with better than 90% voting yes. The details include those that would have been furloughed remain on property but reduced to 32.5 hours at 10 days of duty per month. All benefits are still in place. Would be downgrades maintain four stripes but with 45 hours guarantee. LOA expires March 1st and we go back to 75 hours for all.

We will have none of our active pilot group on the street. Unfortunately, I don’t think this applies to the cadets that were going through training at the time.

Just hope the company doesn’t try and pull a fast one come March and try to make this permanent

When a Laker gets a real job, an angel gets his wings.

Both of my Laker friends are now working for the FAA...not sure if that's a coincidence or not lol.

At one point the Lakes POI was a former Lakes B190 CA...it was the opposite of regulatory capture, as he knew where all the bodies were buried.

Funny thing was that Lakes ran a reasonable organization if not a profitable company, as opposed to another organization in the Denver area that shall remain nameless.

Sadly, one is still in business, and one is not.

Aviation has been an ROI black hole since 1946.

Ya man, I heard the same.  I don't know much about them other than when I was in college circa early 2000s, their first year pay was 13,500, when ever other regional was 21k.  





Word!  I feel very fortunate wrt to my ROI in this career, better lucky than good.  

Odds that there is airline bailout "money" thrown at everyone by 1OCT?

Low before RBG died.

A bill was introduced....

6 out of 5 pilots are dyslexic and the others can't spell

Link

CHICAGO (Reuters) - United Airlines  has agreed to delay the effective date of pilot furloughs until Oct. 30 while union members vote on a broader deal that would protect some 2,850 jobs for months longer.

However, pilots will not be paid during the month of October if that deal does not pass, according to a memorandum of understanding between United and the union representing its 13,000 pilots that was seen by Reuters.

"Our pilots are voting right now on a tentative agreement that, if approved, would avoid all pilot furloughs for at least nine months," United spokesman Frank Benenati said on Wednesday. He noted that the company continues to push for an extension of federal payroll support.

If lawmakers fail to agree to extend $25 billion in payroll aid for airlines this month, tens of thousands of employees are set to be furloughed on Oct. 1.

Delta Air Lines  agreed with its pilots to delay furloughs until Nov. 1, the union said on Monday, but will continue to pay them in October even without an extension of $25 billion in payroll support for airlines.

Well, I know it is supposed to be about doom and gloom, but Purple announced last night that they're hiring 845 new pilots in the next 18-ish months.