User Panel
User Panel
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Posted: 10/2/2017 1:57:32 PM EDT
[#1]
10/2 wire should have 3 wires. Black, white, and copper ground. 10/3 should have 4 wires. Black, red, white, copper ground.
Since you aren't running 240 volts you don't need 10/3. You need burial rated wire to run it underground even if running it in conduit. The subpanel needs to be in the barn. It sounds like you want to put the subpanel in your house....but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to do. You'll need to run 10/2 from your main panel to a subpanel in the barn. You should also drive a ground rod near the new subpanel and connect it to your ground bar in the new panel. Where I live running 30amps of 120v is no problem but check to see if you have inspections and required permits in your area. |
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Posted: 10/2/2017 1:58:04 PM EDT
[#2]
Separate structure adds a lot of requirements.
Like service entrance and ground rods. You can also run into issues with only 30 amps depending on the AHJ. |
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Posted: 10/2/2017 2:13:29 PM EDT
[#3]
240v is only one more wire and you will have a gooder balanced load.
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Posted: 10/2/2017 2:17:20 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The subpanel needs to be in the barn. It sounds like you want to put the subpanel in your house....but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to do. |
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Posted: 10/2/2017 2:18:45 PM EDT
[#5]
Just read again. You NEED a neutral. The white on the breaker is another hot.
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Posted: 10/2/2017 2:24:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just read again. You NEED a neutral. The white on the breaker is another hot. |
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Posted: 10/2/2017 4:36:19 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I read the responses 3 times, and saw nothing mentioned about a neutral wire, hence the reason I ask. That's the whole reason I asked about using the 10/2 wire, instead of running new 10/3. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just read again. You NEED a neutral. The white on the breaker is another hot. It would be a very bad idea to try and use the ground to get 120 V since then you would have no ground. If you need any power pulling in a 4-wire service would be a much better idea. Hot-hot-neutral-ground. If you do not understand what you need the neutral for you should NOT be doing this work at all. Not trying to be a PITA but you have some major gaps in your understanding of 120 V/240 V split phase power. Dangerous gaps. The fuse on the lines feeding your house is on the 7,200 V primary side (or even higher primary voltage) of the transformer feeding you 120V/240V. The available current on those 120V to ground lines is probably around 10,000 amps or more. |
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Posted: 10/2/2017 4:57:28 PM EDT
[#8]
Take the white wire off the breaker and put it on the neutral bar.
Now you have 1 hot , 1 neutral, and 1 ground. A 120v feeder. When you hook up the sub panel, you will jumper the hot to both legs of the panel, put the neutral wire on the neutral bar, and put the ground wire on the ground bar. (make sure the ground and neutral are separated in the sub panel. |
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Posted: 10/2/2017 5:43:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Take the white wire off the breaker and put it on the neutral bar. Now you have 1 hot , 1 neutral, and 1 ground. A 120v feeder. When you hook up the sub panel, you will jumper the hot to both legs of the panel, put the neutral wire on the neutral bar, and put the ground wire on the ground bar. (make sure the ground and neutral are separated in the sub panel. |
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Posted: 10/2/2017 9:10:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thank you for your reply. That is exactly the answer I was looking for. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Take the white wire off the breaker and put it on the neutral bar. Now you have 1 hot , 1 neutral, and 1 ground. A 120v feeder. When you hook up the sub panel, you will jumper the hot to both legs of the panel, put the neutral wire on the neutral bar, and put the ground wire on the ground bar. (make sure the ground and neutral are separated in the sub panel. |
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Posted: 10/2/2017 11:16:51 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can't use one leg of a 240v breaker though. You need a specific 120v single pole breaker. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 9:58:26 AM EDT
[#12]
It costs so little more to do this right.
Run 240 out there, its only 1 more wire. Gives you a balanced load. Depending on your distance, you could use the 10/3 burial rated wire. You get a black, red, white, green for hot, hot, neutral, ground. You get a properly utilized sub panel with no funny business and twice the capacity for only a few extra bucks. You can never build a shed too big, or put in too much electrical capacity. If you run a single leg of 30 amp, that will be taken up quickly with a couple outlets (15 amp) and some lights running. All of a sudden you are always tripping your 30 amp and wanting to add more capacity. Maybe you want to weld out there some day. I would run a 100 amp sub panel, just so its 100 amp, but that is just me. I like sub panels and options down the road. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 10:39:43 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It costs so little more to do this right. Run 240 out there, its only 1 more wire. Gives you a balanced load. Depending on your distance, you could use the 10/3 burial rated wire. You get a black, red, white, green for hot, hot, neutral, ground. You get a properly utilized sub panel with no funny business and twice the capacity for only a few extra bucks. You can never build a shed too big, or put in too much electrical capacity. If you run a single leg of 30 amp, that will be taken up quickly with a couple outlets (15 amp) and some lights running. All of a sudden you are always tripping your 30 amp and wanting to add more capacity. Maybe you want to weld out there some day. I would run a 100 amp sub panel, just so its 100 amp, but that is just me. I like sub panels and options down the road. The added cost to run 240 (at the same current) is the addition of a SINGLE wire in your bundle, it's silly not to. IE, 10/2 vs 10/3 doubles the amount of available power but only requires the 3rd current carrying conductor (red wire) in the bundle. Your sub-panel stays the same, your trenching stays the same. Everything stays the same except the cost of the wire. And you can use the existing double-pole breaker instead of buying a new one (which likely offsets the wire cost significantly). Furthermore, separate structure requires separate ground rod as brickeye said. However, if I understand correctly, if you wanted to run individual circuits to a separate structure you wouldn't need the new ground rod. If you ONLY want 2 circuits out there I would run 12/3 and do a multi-wire branch circuit. This would be the absolute cheapest/easiest option and there would be no panel or breakers in the barn. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 3:30:56 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It costs so little more to do this right. Run 240 out there, its only 1 more wire. Gives you a balanced load. Depending on your distance, you could use the 10/3 burial rated wire. You get a black, red, white, green for hot, hot, neutral, ground. You get a properly utilized sub panel with no funny business and twice the capacity for only a few extra bucks. You can never build a shed too big, or put in too much electrical capacity. If you run a single leg of 30 amp, that will be taken up quickly with a couple outlets (15 amp) and some lights running. All of a sudden you are always tripping your 30 amp and wanting to add more capacity. Maybe you want to weld out there some day. I would run a 100 amp sub panel, just so its 100 amp, but that is just me. I like sub panels and options down the road. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 4:17:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Make sure you take distance into consideration. May not be able to push 30 amps though if its a long run.
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Posted: 10/3/2017 4:18:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Make sure in your sub panel that you keep the ground and neutral separate, and put proper grounding at the sub panel.
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Posted: 10/3/2017 4:32:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Make sure you take distance into consideration. May not be able to push 30 amps though if its a long run. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 5:39:59 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It costs so little more to do this right. I would run a 100 amp sub panel, just so its 100 amp, but that is just me. I like sub panels and options down the road. |
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Posted: 10/3/2017 6:03:40 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. I would lean towards 8/3WG. OP mentioned a 150ft and that excludes the distance to the transformer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Make sure you take distance into consideration. May not be able to push 30 amps though if its a long run. cable gauge/distance/amperage chart ETA: The short of it is OP will need a 6ga for 30 amp, 8ga for 20 amp, and the 10/3 combo will mean 15 amp breakers. That is for copper. Big copper costs big $$, that is why I use aluminum feeder cable for a 90 amp sub panel. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 12:26:11 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
cable gauge/distance/amperage chart ETA: The short of it is OP will need a 6ga for 30 amp, 8ga for 20 amp, and the 10/3 combo will mean 15 amp breakers. That is for copper. Big copper costs big $, that is why I use aluminum feeder cable for a 90 amp sub panel. This calculator gives much more useful results with actual numbers and percentages for difference setups, showing that 10/3 would be fine at 30 amps/150 feet, resulting in a voltage drop from 240vac to 231 VAC, or 3.75 percent- which would be tolerable and only ever occur at a max 30A draw, not likely under the intended usage. Upsize one size if you feel like it, OP, but I wouldn't even think about attempting to put #6 on a 30A breaker. http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html?material=copper&wiresize=3.277&voltage=240&phase=ac&noofconductor=1&distance=150&distanceunit=feet&eres=30&x=49&y=27 |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 8:12:30 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those numbers are nuts, seem like they are miscalculated for 220/240 and are for a hypothetical max current draw and limiting voltage drop to 3 percent. There is no code requirement to limit voltage drop thusly, merely a mandate that any equipment not be tasked to operate for a voltage outside of its labeled range. This calculator gives much more useful results with actual numbers and percentages for difference setups, showing that 10/3 would be fine at 30 amps/150 feet, resulting in a voltage drop from 240vac to 231 VAC, or 3.75 percent- which would be tolerable and only ever occur at a max 30A draw, not likely under the intended usage. Upsize one size if you feel like it, OP, but I wouldn't even think about attempting to put #6 on a 30A breaker. http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html?material=copper&wiresize=3.277&voltage=240&phase=ac&noofconductor=1&distance=150&distanceunit=feet&eres=30&x=49&y=27 Also, voltage drop is more-so dependent on what your line voltage actually runs at your panel. If the OP is already at 230 volts then a 9 volt drop is going to be more critical than if he is at 250 volts at his panel. In rural areas voltage at the panel can be all over the place depending on where a person is on the primary line (near a sub-station vs at the end of a primary run); IE, my L1 to L2 voltage has been 248 volts give or take a couple volts every time I check it. I can get away with some pretty crazy voltage drop without causing harm to equipment. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 10:58:04 AM EDT
[#22]
I wish my electrical inspector would agree with you guys. The mantra is "by manufacturer specifications", and we get cerrowire around here.
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Posted: 10/4/2017 11:21:36 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree, the wire charts put out by cerrowire and a few others are very suspect. Also, voltage drop is more-so dependent on what your line voltage actually runs at your panel. If the OP is already at 230 volts then a 9 volt drop is going to be more critical than if he is at 250 volts at his panel. In rural areas voltage at the panel can be all over the place depending on where a person is on the primary line (near a sub-station vs at the end of a primary run); IE, my L1 to L2 voltage has been 248 volts give or take a couple volts every time I check it. I can get away with some pretty crazy voltage drop without causing harm to equipment. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 4:07:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Run 6/3 wg for 150'. Run for 240 V. 100 amp minimum sub-panel. If you try to use 120 V, you will regret it later, trust me. Do it right the first time. FYI: Square D sub-panel, using HOM breakers, max wire size is 10 AWG. You can use a reducer to drop from 6 AWG to 10 AWG. Just keep it short. 6" or less. I just installed a new RV 30 A line, 85' or so. I replaced the existing 12 AWG that a prior "electrician" ran. I was having issues with low voltage. 107.4 V at any outlet in the RV. Now I have 119.2 V with the A/C running.
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Posted: 10/4/2017 4:16:43 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Run 6/3 wg for 150'. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 6:49:44 PM EDT
[#26]
I can't believe people are seriously telling this guy to run 6-3, which won't even fit into his breaker, to a subpanel for 30A. I guess the modification instructions are helpful.
Voltage drop at the full 30 amps with 8-3 = 2.35 percent. No reason outside of future expansion to waste the money or go through the effort of 6 AWG in this situation, especially since he's describing modest usage at best. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 10:31:59 PM EDT
[#27]
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Price that out though. Around here, 6/3 copper costs more than 2-2-2-4 aluminum MHF (mobile home feeder) and you would have 90 amp service with the MHF aluminum wire. |
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Posted: 10/4/2017 10:36:39 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't believe people are seriously telling this guy to run 6-3, which won't even fit into his breaker, to a subpanel for 30A. I guess the modification instructions are helpful. Voltage drop at the full 30 amps with 8-3 = 2.35 percent. No reason outside of future expansion to waste the money or go through the effort of 6 AWG in this situation, especially since he's describing modest usage at best. |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 12:53:49 AM EDT
[#29]
[qu fs.[bd
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Posted: 10/5/2017 8:18:24 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My total cost was $297 for the job. I did not have to buy the sub-panel as it was already in place. I had to buy 2 new breakers, as the prior "electrician" had put the wrong ones in the sub-panel. I paid $156 for a 125' roll of 6/2 wg. All the other material costs were in line with expected prices. I am personally not a fan of aluminum wire. It is notorious for loosening at connections and caused many mobile home fires in the past It does need to be tightened correctly and you should also use noalox paste but as long as you do that, you won't have any issues. |
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Posted: 10/18/2017 6:55:11 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The fuse on the lines feeding your house is on the 7,200 V primary side (or even higher primary voltage) of the transformer feeding you 120V/240V. The available current on those 120V to ground lines is probably around 10,000 amps or more. |
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