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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:50:16 AM EDT
Everyone seems to say that it guarantees free speech and separates church and state, but I am just not seeing either of those two things in there. It looks like that it is only restricting the federal government from limiting these things, but does not have an impact on the laws of individual states. I'm not sure how this would carry over into restricting state schools from teaching things other than evolution. What am I not getting?
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 11:52:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 11:54:46 AM EDT by JohnTheTexican]
The Supreme Court has ruled that the First Amendment (and selected other provisions of the Bill of Rights) apply to the states through the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

It's known as the Incorporation Doctrine.
Link Posted: 2/24/2006 12:14:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/24/2006 1:03:05 PM EDT by PanzerMK7]
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Link Posted: 2/24/2006 12:21:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:
The Supreme Court has ruled that the First Amendment (and selected other provisions of the Bill of Rights) apply to the states through the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

It's known as the Incorporation Doctrine.



Is that what that part of the 14th amendment was intended to do?
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 5:37:54 PM EDT
I'm a little late, but maybe I can help.

It does aid serparation of church and state. It prevents the government from creating a national/official religion for the country. As a result, if there's no official religion, then your government can't act based on one religion alone, it must consider others. True in theory... but in practice?

As far as freedom of speech, it says that congress shall make no laws prevent it. The only limitations come in the form of harming people or treason. Yelling "Fire!" when there isn't one, and someone dies in a stampede, you can be held accountable without freedom of speech as a defense. Threats against the president do not fall under free speech as well. The rest is a nice thick grey line.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights is the Supreme law of the land. In many cases, states can not make a law that over-rides either. Because religion must be a national thing, states can't make a certain religion the official religion for that state, it just can't happen.

As far as evolution in schools, that's another debate not really related. Other than Christians, and similar groups, using Freedom of Religion to justify the teaching of creationism in schools and vice versa with non-Christian groups.
Link Posted: 3/2/2006 5:42:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By toepopper:

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:
The Supreme Court has ruled that the First Amendment (and selected other provisions of the Bill of Rights) apply to the states through the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

It's known as the Incorporation Doctrine.



Is that what that part of the 14th amendment was intended to do?



The Supreme Court seems to think so, even though they didn't "discover" that fact until decades after the amendment was passed.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 5:43:08 AM EDT

Article VI

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 5:44:16 AM EDT
It means exectly what the liberals tell you it means
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 6:04:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RuinII:
I'm a little late, but maybe I can help.

It does aid serparation of church and state. It prevents the government from creating a national/official religion for the country. As a result, if there's no official religion, then your government can't act based on one religion alone, it must consider others. True in theory... but in practice?

As far as freedom of speech, it says that congress shall make no laws prevent it. The only limitations come in the form of harming people or treason. Yelling "Fire!" when there isn't one, and someone dies in a stampede, you can be held accountable without freedom of speech as a defense. Threats against the president do not fall under free speech as well. The rest is a nice thick grey line.

The Constitution and Bill of Rights is the Supreme law of the land. In many cases, states can not make a law that over-rides either. Because religion must be a national thing, states can't make a certain religion the official religion for that state, it just can't happen.

As far as evolution in schools, that's another debate not really related. Other than Christians, and similar groups, using Freedom of Religion to justify the teaching of creationism in schools and vice versa with non-Christian groups.




You have forgotten the part that says “or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. Seems to be a lot of that going around lately.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The Original intent of the first amendment is to PREVENT the government from limiting the exchange of political ideas. “Congress shall make no law” establishes the purpose to limit government not individuals. It dose not limit me. I may practices and speak about my religion anywhere I wish.

Look at the five limits that are but on the government by this amendment, religion, speech, press, assemble, and petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Clearly the intent is for free political debate and religion IS included.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 7:37:57 AM EDT
Just to add something, the doctrine of selective incorporation basically means the Supreme Court incorporates the rights individually. So far, almost all of the Bill of Rights has been incorporated, with a few exceptions:

2nd - the right to keep and bear arms has not been incorporated to apply to the states
3rd - the one about quartering soldiers isn't incorporated
5th - right to grand jury indictment is the only non-incorporated part
7th - trial by jury in civil cases isn't incorporated

Link Posted: 3/5/2006 9:17:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By t-money:
Just to add something, the doctrine of selective incorporation basically means the Supreme Court incorporates the rights individually. So far, almost all of the Bill of Rights has been incorporated, with a few exceptions:

2nd - the right to keep and bear arms has not been incorporated to apply to the states
3rd - the one about quartering soldiers isn't incorporated
5th - right to grand jury indictment is the only non-incorporated part
7th - trial by jury in civil cases isn't incorporated




I tink a little clarification is in order. There are some that the Supreme COurt has ruled are not incorporated, like the right to a jury trial in civil cases where more than $20 is in controversy, and some that the Supreme COurt hasn't ruled on yet, like quartering of soldiers and the right to keep and bear arms.

As a further point of clarification, the Supreme Court did rule that the Second Amendment does not apply to the states after the 14th Amendment was inacted, but it has not revisited the issue since the inventiuon of the incorporation doctrine. Consequently, whether the Second Amendment was incorporated by the Fourteenth is still an open question.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 5:49:58 PM EDT
The Constitution says what it means in plain and clear language. SCOTUS makes up what it means. Big difference.

As to the 1st and religion, all that everyone is being told about separation is a lie. At the time of the adoption, 6 states had state supported churches where citizens were taxed to support them and that was not unconstitutional and some endured for years until the majority of people in those states no longer were members of that church and state legislation ending support was passed. Congress passed a law to hire a Catholic priest and paid his salary to go minister to an indian tribe in New York within 10 years after the Constitution was adopted and this was not unconstitutional. Go check and find out how the Catholic univesity Gerogetown founding was helped by the federal government.

Go look at one of the requirements of the Northwest Territories (Minn, etc.) being accepted as states that Congress required-the Bible had to be taught in their schools and this was not unconstitutional.

The lie about separation of church and state did not start until Hugo Black, a permanent black eye on Alabama's soul, made it up and convinced the liberals on SCOTUS to go along with him.
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